Looking Back at our First 10 Episodes: Recap with Bunny and Johanna Part 2

Bunny (00:02):

This is Bunny, Terry, with the Life-saving Gratitude podcast and we’re here today. I’m with my producer and my daughter, Johanna Medina, and we have done 10 episodes so far. We wanted to do a recap and give you some highlights because there’s so much to dig into and uncover with all of the guests that we’ve had. However, we got through five guests and ran out of time. So today we’re going to take a look at podcasts 6-10, and talk about the things that we’ve learned. We’ve both been really surprised and delighted at what people have shared with us. You know, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s been a real lesson in when you sit down and, and talk to somebody and really listen a lot. You learn things you didn’t expect. Am I right?

Johanna (01:26):

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, we’ve learned a lot of things we didn’t expect. And definitely if you’re listening to this one and you haven’t listened to the first recap, I’d go back and listen to that one. Just because it was, I mean, I think it was a good one and it was great to catch up on the first five episodes. So welcome to recap Part two. We’re looking back at the next five episodes and I think it’s just cool to give them each their time because the stories are so awesome. And I think it’s cool to do this kind of look back on everything. We’re kind of getting ready, I think this will send us to like season two of your podcasts of life-saving gratitude. So our episode six was with Tiffany and that was just a super fun one. It was like talking to someone, you know, like our hometown girl. So that was super fun.

Bunny (02:35):

Yeah. And she, you know, Tiffany, of course is like 30 years younger than I am. Maybe not 30, but probably 22, 23 years younger than I am. And yet she and Johanna and I all went to the same high school and she, and I became friends at some point because we both were both hometown girls from Logan, New Mexico blogging. And I was writing the, I love New Mexico blog and she was writing this fun blog, really transparent and vulnerable, you know, back before we talked about being transparent and vulnerable, she was a single woman in her early thirties, as I recall. And she wrote this blog called figuring out the plot and she did this, these fun things. Like she wrote letters to Mr. Right because she was really, she was clear. She was like, I don’t want to be single forever. I want to have a family, want to live on a farm, I want to have animals, and yet she was really well-educated and she had, had just gotten her law degree and started practicing law and some private practices. So I knew her in that context. And then when we started talking to her and she told us the whole story about how she had taken a completely different path than anybody suggests that, you know, a lot of people had an, I have an idea of what your dreams should be or, or what your past should be. And I thought that things that she talked about about choosing a completely different path were really enlightening. It was inspiring. Didn’t you think?

Johanna (04:26):

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And it is exactly. It’s cool to hear all of the different kinds of forks in the road she came up to and really choosing, you know, where her heart was leading her, as opposed to what, you know, the popular opinion might’ve been. And I think we’ve all been in situations like that. And for sure, we know what it’s like to have a plan or dream, wanting to set out on a path and have people probably look at us like we’re crazy or say things to us. Like, I don’t really think I could do that. You know, there’s definitely a lot of people that might not believe we could do what we really wanted to do. And so, and, hey we definitely proved them wrong and Tiffany did the same thing. And I think the biggest thing was her – I mean maybe not so much not caring what those people thought, but caring more that she wanted to follow her dreams and knowing, you know, in the long-term well, maybe this one career choice would have made me more money or maybe it would have gotten me to a more exotic place, but in the long run, it’s not really what I want to do where I want to be. So definitely inspired.

Bunny (05:46):

Yeah. One of the, one of the things that she said that I thought was so wise for somebody who was so young is that she said follow your heart and say yes to the things that you, to your dreams, not the dream someone else tells you that you should have. And, um, yeah, you and I have taken a lot of, we it’s been a rather circuitous route to get to where we are right now, but the entire time it’s felt to me, like I was doing the things that were important to me, you know, even when I was single and you guys were little and we didn’t have very much, I still felt like our life was rich because I was making the choices instead of somebody else making them for me. So I thought that that was, I love the way she described that anybody who’s listening should go back and listen to it because it’s so inspiring. I mean, she could have, you know, if Tiffany had stayed on the path that she was on, she probably would be close to getting appointed as a federal judge or at least as a district judge, she would, she so was so politically involved and she was so smart and she had an offer of, uh, of a clerkship with a judge and she turned it down and now she has her dream job, you know, every, every farmer and rancher in Texas listens to what she has to say about ag law. And that’s so important to her. We talked a lot about mentors. She talked about the people who changed her life as educators.

Johanna (07:27):

Yeah. That was a big part of it too. And it was really cool to hear her talk about how the teachers and exactly mentors in her life, um, kind of affected her, molded her. Um, but yeah, yeah, she’s really, um, just an, uh, cool and fun person to talk to. And again, another person that I’m following more now online and, uh, you know, online friends with right now until we can meet each other in per, in person, but just seeing the way she’s raising her kids and the way she is really, um, you know, just living a full life and taking advantage of, of everything. Um, you know, and not basically living without regrets. Like I’m sure we all wish we could. So that’s a good one.

Bunny (08:12):

And we talked about some of those fun things that she does with her kids. I love that fancy Sunday night dinner with their kids. Yeah, that was cool. She said it was something that they came up with during quarantine. And listen, listen, she’s got kids that are, are they 13 months apart? So she’s spent 2020 in a house with a four-year-old and a five-year-old and came up with really, um, innovative ideas about how, you know, when, when you’re a young mom like that, you’re not particularly grateful every single day when you’re with children that small, but she figured out ways to do that. And they do this Sunday fancy dinner where they set the table, they get dressed, they light a candle

Johanna (09:03):

Yeah. I think anybody should do that. Even if you don’t have kids try to have a fun dinner.

Bunny (09:13):

Yeah. Take time to make some moments that you cherish. And then she also finally, and I think this is what led to her blogging is she said that one of the ways that she sort of kept up with her life, because she said she didn’t think she was very good at remembering thing was to, was to write everything down and reminded me of when we talked to jock Soto, who we’re going to talk about later. And he said he did the same thing that he had figured out that journaling was really the answer for him. The same thing sort of helped her figure out what she was grateful for in the moment.

Johanna (09:49):

Yeah. Yeah. Writing, Writing has been a big thing. It seems like, um, Amber too, we talked about journaling and, and you know, that’s, you’re a big advocate of that too.

Bunny (10:02):

Yeah. Yeah. So that was Tiffany dowel Lashmet. And then we went, we moved right from, you know, here’s how you raise your kids to be grateful. Here’s how you find your own path to, um, Daphne Miller who just happened to be a homerun. I sold a house to in Santa Fe and I’ve found out in the process of showing her homes that she is a leadership coach and the fellow at George Mason university and knows what seems to be like all there is to know about the science of gratitude.

Johanna (10:44):

Yeah, yeah. is yeah, definitely, impressive resume Daphne. I think she even says like, whoa, I didn’t realize that, but, um, uh, this, yeah, the sun, as much as there can be, you know, a science behind gratitude and just talking about, um, uh, kind of how our brain works with the neural pathways and getting a little more into the nuances of that. And, um, one of my favorite quotes, I won’t read it here. I’ll just put it in from her, was, um, you know, her talking about, uh, how, how having that daily practice, um, it’s something you need to work on and kind of her light switch metaphor. So I’ll, I’ll clip that in here because she says it so, so much better than I could.

Bunny (11:32):

And the other thing that I loved that I, I didn’t know before was that she said only 10% of where we end up is our circumstances. So we definitely, I want you to hear that quote because it’s, you know, people tend to have a, if you, if you choose have a victim mindset, then, um, it’s a choice. It’s not that, um, your circumstances were wrong or, you know, you had the wrong parents, which we certainly learned from our, our 10th episode with, um, Istvan it is only 10% of where you end up as life in life is due to your circumstances. And I didn’t know that before, but, but that’s, that’s part of the science of…

Johanna (12:28):

And she talked a lot about, yeah. And she talked a lot about mindfulness too, which, um, I think is a big part of the science of gratitude is having a mindful practice. And I think, I mean, honestly they just go hand in hand if you’re being mindful of your surroundings and what’s going on day to day, you are more likely to be grateful for those things and be grateful for the little things and the big things. So, um, you know, uh, people might have certain thoughts about mindfulness the same way they might have thoughts about gratitude. But, um, I think there’s a lot of proof in, there is a lot of science that having those practices can help improve your life and help you even just appreciate where you’re at. Um, so I mean, everything from your business practice to parenting, to relieving stress and anxiety, uh, mindfulness is, is a huge, um, treatment in that.

Bunny (13:37):

Well, and I, you, I mean, you know, more about mindfulness about, I think the science of mindfulness than I do, but just give somebody, give, give, let’s give folks a good example of one way to be mindful maybe with your kids.

Johanna (13:51):

Yeah, I mean, it’s, it sounds when you just really, um, it really can be super simple, like just taking, cause we are, we’re so much on autopilot. I think definitely says this so well too. Like from day to day, we’re so much on autopilot, just getting through the day, doing what we need to do. I’m not really thinking from one step to the next, you know, you know, got to write this email or gotta make lunch or whatever it is. Um, even just like she said, driving to work, you’re just kinda not really thinking, going through the motions. So being mindful in the moment would literally just be to kind of stop your brain and to, um, focus on what’s right in front of you. So, and it’s really, you know, a good way to put it as to thinking about your five senses. So what’s something in front of you that you can see or hear or smell or taste. And, um, if you have little kids, a good way to do that is to kind of start pointing it out to them. You know, they’re playing with a toy saying, oh, is that, is that toy like soft or hard or, um, whatever they’re eating like, oh, what does that taste like, having them start to realize, you know, what they’re experiencing and then do that for yourself. If you’re getting ready in the morning and you have your cup of coffee, like really look at it and look at, oh, my mug is round and think about what your coffee smells like, what it tastes like. And, and it can be as much as a minute to attend 20 minute practice. You know, a lot of people do yoga and taking that time during that practice to be mindful about what your body’s feeling and what you’re doing. So, I mean, you could do it all day long or you can do it for five seconds, but, um, just implementing it a little bit at a time is really helpful because it does help to recenter you and ground you back into the moment.

Bunny (15:49):

Well, and don’t, she talked about this. She talked about how a lot of people think about meditation and they think that it’s supposed to be wiping your, your brain clean of any thoughts and, and clearing out thoughts. But she said, really, it’s more about just recognizing them and letting them go past without catching anything to that. And I know this is really simple and really elementary to people who practice meditation all the time, but I think I still feel like we get so caught up in survival mode that we forget, you know, my favorite quote by Natalie Goldberg, which is every moment is enormous. And it’s all we have. That’s the only moment you have in your possession at the time. And so if you, if you get in survival mode and you get on autopilot, as she said, you start, um, you, you lose some of your ability to become more resilient. She talked about resiliency and, um, she said that, um, attention and intention, um, if, when you bring those together and they need practice gratitude in response to that, that creates resiliency. And that, I mean, that’s, it’s healthy, it’s physically healthier. It’s mentally healthier.

Johanna (17:18):

Yeah. I mean, we could get into all the things from like cortisol and your stress hormones and, and helping out to, you know, to reduce all that and fight and flight response that might need to be like a whole nother, episode but I think we’ll do with Daphne, but there is so much, there’s so much science behind, um, how and why gratitude is life-saving and, and mindfulness is part of that. And, um, taking that time, like she said, to rewire our neural pathways and it’s, it’s something anybody can do, I think is the cool thing. So I hope or Alyssa do, you know, it’s just, it can be simple. And, you know, maybe it sounds a little bit daunting at first, but if it’s something that you, you know, you want to do, you should definitely look into it and just, you know, take that time to work on it. Just like you would create a gratitude practice it’s you, that mindfulness practice. And again, they can kind of go hand in hand, but yeah.

Bunny (18:23):

You could. But, but she did finally say, you know, life is hard. Life is really hard sometimes. And so we want to create, we want to cultivate re resiliency by doing all those other things first so that we can bounce back from difficult times. And I will tell you that when we got finished with that episode, um, Daphne called me and she said, I, I, you know, she said, I never know, going into these things, how it’s going to go. But she had a cousin who was having some health issues, then she’s really, really close cousin. And she said, it was so nice. She said, it’s like, I know these things, I know them intellectually. And yet talking to you and Johanna about them really made this other, what felt like a trauma in my life, much easier to handle. So I thought that that was interesting to hear after we had done the episode.

Johanna (19:23):

That’s awesome. I didn’t know that. I’m sorry for her, having to go through that, but that’s, that’s so cool. Um, crazy. Uh, but man, then we got to talk to Jock. I mean, someone, we have been dying to get on the show since the beginning, and luckily you knew him from the cancer foundation, but man, that was just, that’s a cool conversation. A cool person for me to research and learn more about. He had a fun story for sure.

Bunny (20:00):

Right. And for if this is the first time you’re on the podcast, um, Jock Soto is a New Mexico born, um, half native American, half Puerto Rican. Um, he was, he began dancing when he was five years old and he was the youngest principal dancer for the New York city ballet. And he is so fascinating. But the thing about Chuck is not just that he’s really accomplished. And he knew all these amazing New York stories because he lived in New York for 38 years, you know, dance with all the greats and was friends with people like Andy Warhol. But he also, um, came home to take care of his dad who was dying of cancer. And almost within a really short time, he was diagnosed with cancer. And I met him while he was getting treated at the cancer center and taking advantage of the helps that the cancer foundation offers to Northern New Mexico cancer patients. And I got to tell you, the first time I met him, he was in such a difficult place. He was in the middle of all that radiation. And he was, I mean, there’s just, no, it seems like there’s no dignity all at all and cancer. It’s so hard when you’re the patient, but he came back. He’s now teaching again. Um, he’s teaching ballet, he’s done a couple of films. That’s like talk about a guy who’s rewriting, who’s writing this brave new ending to his life. He goes into stay quiet about his illness. He could have chosen to sort of hole up in angel fire, New Mexico, which is the town of what, what, what’s the population like?

Johanna (21:58):

It’s like 200 or something tiny.

Bunny (22:01):

He could have got it back up there in the mountains and chosen to sort of stop his life that he’s back in the middle of it. Fascinating. But what was your favorite part of that one?

Johanna (22:15):

Oh, man. I mean, I don’t even know if I have a favorite part. I mean, definitely him talking about meeting his husband and you know, such a sweet story and, um, but then just, just, you know, having read about him and having you tell me about him, um, and then me, and then, you know, even virtually getting to meet him and seeing like what a, just a kind and generous person he is, you know, totally humble. He’s, you know, unassuming. And so it was just fun to like meet him and, uh, and then, sorry, I can also say, yeah, it was just fun to, to record that podcast. And he was so generous to speak with us. So, um, and then hopefully, you know, getting to continue to talk to him and, and be him more, just have him be another one of her, our gratitude nerds and our gratitude friends. So, yeah.

Bunny (23:21):

And he is a gratitude nerd. I mean, he says every time I talk to him or every time I text him, he’s always, I’m so grateful that I know you I’m like, this is jock Soto. This is a say to people, I’m friends with a guy who was the youngest principal dancer at the New York city ballet people who know ballet will say, do you know Jack Soto. So, I mean, they get, you even have to say his day and they get it. So it’s sort of like, you know, getting to talk to Jagger is you’re a Rock music fan.

Johanna (23:54):

Yeah. I would love to sometime get to talk to him more about, you know, being that caregiver because, you know, obviously I was your caregiver when you were going through treatment and then him, you know, both of his parents had cancer and he, you know, took care of his dad. And definitely I’m sure we can have some similar stories. Like he said, I had to do all the cooking and take care of this guy who was used to being on his own. So I think that would be kind of fun to talk to him about that kind of stuff.

Bunny (24:23):

Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. I would like to do that. And then we made this transition to Brindley. And neither you, nor I knew how that was going to go

Johanna (24:38):

Talk about just being so open and just like, all right, I’m ready to share my story. You know, she doesn’t know me at all and you guys haven’t seen each other in probably quite a while. And she was just so honest and open with her story. And, uh, it was, it was a great one to hear, I think every episode we’re like, whoa! I cannot pick a best episode they’re all so good,

Bunny (25:02):

No, no. And, and she, um, you know, like, like I always say, if you, if this is the first time that you’ve tuned in, you have to go back and listen to Brindley because not that we were gonna talk about business and that’s the context that I knew her in, and she’s a really successful Keller Williams agent. And I thought we were going to talk about how she trains people to show their gratitude and get their clients to get I’m sorry. She, how she trains assistance their real estate clients on different teams with a lot of gratitudes so that you’re inspiring your clients to, to be loyal and stick with you. And instead, she starts with the story that is basically, I almost killed somebody created this horrible chaos in my own life. And I mean, you have to listen to the episode to get it, but she said the thing that I, up to this point, we had talked to people who had had things happen to them. Somebody who had lost a child, somebody who had had cancer, somebody who had had was an amputee. And Brindley said, I, she said, I feel like my purpose in life is to provide a space where people can say I made a really terrible mistake and I could still have a life beyond my wildest dreams. And I mean, we hadn’t thought about that before. That certainly wasn’t how we thought the was going to go.

Johanna (26:45):

No, no, gosh, it’s hard for me to even put into words like what that story, you know, how that impacted us. We were recording that first thing in the morning and we’re all sitting there crying and, um, you know, you can just even feel her presence through a computer screen. So, um, that was, that was such a powerful story. And her even talking about how, you know, that experience, led to some medical issues and then being able to help out other people who were experiencing that. And like, maybe didn’t know that that’s why, um, you know, that’s why that was happening. And now, you know, she was just trying to live a healthy life, but, and at the same time give back, um, it’s just amazing to, to hear what she’s been through, what she, yeah. Overcame and then now like where she’s at. Like, she’s really just like a great story. And obviously this is not the end of her story. She’s continuing to do more and more, but that was, that was an awesome, awesome story. That again, we were not expecting at all.

Bunny (27:58):

Well, and she was so vulnerable. I mean, she gave us information that it was unexpected and it was, it was no holds bar. She just, she gave us her heart. And, and like you said, we, I cried the entire time she was talking. It was so powerful.

Johanna (28:22):

Yeah. I really appreciated her being open and honest with us and trusting us with that story. And I mean, talk about someone who is so grateful for their life now. And, and I think I could save her. Like she was grateful for the experience too, again, not grateful for what happened, but grateful for what she learned from it. And the way things have kind of evolved.

Bunny (28:49):

Well. And I think that’s what we’re starting. It seems to be a pattern, is that people aren’t saying, wow, I’m so glad I got my leg cut off, you know, or I’m so glad that I almost was convicted of a vehicular homicide, but, but, but the gratitude comes from wow. This, the way that I viewed and lived through this experience completely changed my life. And at this moment, sort of like I feel about, um, having stage four cancer, I wouldn’t go back and make that go away. I mean, I’m sort of speechless.

Johanna (29:32):

Yeah. I was just thinking that another big thing that, um, I think we learned or that Brindley… Another big thing, that Brindley story was just, you know, the importance of her support system, the importance of even, um, Nikki, who she worked with and her mom and her friends, uh, being there for her after, you know, this horrible thing happened, but they were still there to support her, you know, push her to do what she needed to do. But then also be there to kind of, you can, you can hear in her story, like direct her in saying like, you know what, you are going to be able to help somebody someday. So don’t, you know, don’t hide from this, but, but just having that, that support system to still kind of be there, right? To catch you. So that’s huge, no matter what.

Bunny (30:28):

Oh, and being supportive didn’t even for her, if this makes me think of when, um, Stephanie who had her leg cut off, said to the woman who was helping her after her surgery, she said, you know, could you rake up those leaves over there? And her and her friends said, they didn’t take your hand off of staff. You can get over there and do that. And I think Bradley, she, you know, like Nicki fired her and continued to love her and care for her, encourage her and say, this is not the end for you. This is really just the beginning. Yeah. So that, that was really powerful. And, and then we had Istvan Zsako as a guest and I know him professionally. He was episode 10 and I really didn’t. And I have done an episode before, but he interviewed me about the books. So I just had an inkling. I know that he tells stories like, you know, I lived four years in a tent or he I’ve heard these little pieces of his life story, but you and I sat down and talked to him and, and it happened again, the story that made us cry that

Johanna (31:44):

First five minutes, you can hear Bunny saying “wait, wait, what?”

Bunny (31:51):

Because he, you know, he grew up in this really what seemed like a broken home and he, um, considered suicide and then he was cared for, by somebody who seemed really generous and, and loving. And after five or six months she died. And it was like, what? And he was a kid, he was a baby. He was 16 years old and went out on his own and slept on the street. And then, and then experienced this ongoing anger. He acknowledges, um, you know, he said, he looked on the outside, like somebody who sort of had their act together, but he was angry all the time.

Johanna (32:39):

Yeah. And then, you know, he talks about learning how to, um, kind of, and part of like intertwining, his gratitude was, was finding that forgiveness. And then, um, you know, you talked about kind of which came first and he’s like, I couldn’t have been, you know, I spent have been grateful for anything until I got forgiveness because I had to get past that anger. And really that anger was hurting him more than anyone else. So,

Bunny (33:10):

Right. And he, and he said, there was just this moment when he realized that his parents loved him, the all just the best way they, how to love him. And, um, you know, we tend to, um, people tend to parent the way that they were parented. And, um, I think that his parents probably were following a mold that they knew, and he broke that pattern by, by making a real choice. But he also said that forgiveness is not only a choice, it’s a process. So, you know, you sorta start thinking I’m going to choose to forgive, but it doesn’t happen in a moment. I mean, you have to, you know, had to, had to go through the process of learning to forgive them. And, his parents weren’t harming him as an adult. He was harming himself by refusing to forgive.

Johanna (34:11):

Yeah. Yeah. And then again, just another person who has gone through such hard times. And I mean, I feel like I keep repeating myself, but that’s kind of, again, the theme of our show and the stories in such all such different ways that they’ve gone through like these crazy circumstances or just hard things. And they have found a way to, you know, come out on the other side, still find a way to be grateful, self and find a way to give back everybody we’ve talked to also gives back to their community and, um, finds a way to find gratitude through that. Find some purpose. Um, just like you had fun find purpose in your story by sharing it with others and by hopefully helping other people. Um, so that has been really awesome to see

Bunny (35:06):

He talked about now having a victory mindset about everything.

Johanna (35:11):

Yeah. So definitely go back and listen to that one. So you can hear him talk about what victory mindset is. And we’ll put in a little piece of that here, but so that’s 10 episodes. We did it.

Bunny (35:26):

Wow.

Johanna (35:26):

And our next 10 are going to be really great too. We already have the first few lined up ready to go. But, um, I mean, this for you, what would have kind of said it, but just to wrap things up, like your overall takeaways, your, thoughts on the themes of, I think we’ll call this our first season of lifesaving gratitude.

Bunny (35:51):

Well, I had a completely different picture in my head when I thought we’re going to do, you know, I, first of all, I, I tend to sometimes think of myself as a, as a huge gratitude nerd and a little bit of a gratitude expert. And I think, you know, I, I know how, what gratitude did for me when I was really sick. And, and, and, and then I remember I’m only an expert on what worked for me. And, and I think I had an idea in my head when we started the podcast that I would be sort of, this is I’m being completely transparent here. I thought I’d be sort of the gratitude mentor. And, and, you know, I figured I would be the person who would sort of lead people to the, you know, sharing their story in a way that was, you know, edifying and inspiring. And instead I’m the person who’s getting educated and inspired and I’m so blown away by humanity in general. I, I thought that I knew these people, every single one of them, and they have been such a gift over the last 12 weeks. Like what I had no clue. I really don’t know anything about gratitude, except how to ask people about it.

Johanna (37:16):

Honestly, I was, I think in the same boat as you, I thought we were just going to sit here and ask people a couple of questions, you know, and they would just give us an answer. And that would be that. And, but no, we really, I think it was, we, we honestly, haven’t had to do any hard work on it. We kind of just opened the door and say, we’re here. We want to hear your story. And people are so giving and, and this are ready to tell her story, um, which is a huge gift, you know, and they, they just take the lead on it. So yeah, it’s totally turned into something I wasn’t expecting either. And I’m so happy that it did. I’m happy and excited for the way it’s going and just excited to see and hear the rest of the stories we have coming up. Hopefully we could keep doing this for a while. And, um, yeah, it’s just so cool. I think I say it every week. I’m like, wow, this person is so impressive. Like I probably sound so redundant too. Just to be, They’re impressive. Their story is so powerful, but they are. And I think it, it also shows us that we all have a inspiring and powerful story inside of us. You know, as you know, you might think your life is so boring and you really haven’t done anything, but you do have something to contribute with your story and, and like you, every episode story save us. So you should find a way to tell yours.

Bunny (38:41):

And, and, but we also, I, I, you also want to remember that sometimes stories can harm us as well. If we keep, if we don’t share them, if we, um, view them as something, um, you know, um, savory or negative, I think that sharing your story, you know, just Brindley is the best example that I can think of stories can harm us if we don’t choose to share them way that, um, you know, it’s like by sharing that kind of, that sort of a story, you take some of the power away from the negative and you give power to your future by letting go of the old stories.

Johanna (39:32):

Yeah. And let go of, you know, something that you might be ashamed of or you know, scared to tell people, because I guarantee there’s somebody out there that has been through something similar, or, you know what you’re going to find, like we say your tribe and they’re going to understand you and love you no matter what you’ve been through. So it’s important to tell your story and it’s important to hear other people’s stories. It’s just as important to listen. So I hope we’re giving that balance as much as possible.

Bunny (40:05):

I think we are. I think we are, we’re having some fun absolutely. So on to episode 13.

Johanna (40:15):

Yep. Here we go. Stay tuned for more Lifesaving Gratitude.

Bunny (40:21):

I can’t wait.

Johanna (40:22):

Yep. All right. What would you want to like, do your little, I don’t know, say anything to do wrap up or to,

Speaker 2 (40:29):

Um, no, I think, no, I think that’s good. Okay.

Speaker 4 (40:33):

Uh, yeah, that’s good. Uh, I just would say, you know, make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, you can find us at Lifesaving gratitude pod. You can email bunny at bunny Terry, no bunny@bunnyterry.com and you can find her website to find her book and to reach out to at bunnyterry.com. So thanks for listening.

Bunny (41:01):

Yeah. Thanks for checking in.

Bunny: Hi everyone. This is Bunny with the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. Just in case you don’t know me, I am a stage four colon cancer survivor and the author of Lifesaving Gratitude, which is a book about how gratitude helped me kick cancer’s ass. 

Today we’re going to talk to a special guest about how marketing and marketers can use gratitude to create business and connections with clients and also for themselves to create a really positive way to do their job. But first, I just want to thank you for being here and ask that you download the podcast if you’d like. And certainly subscribe wherever you listen to other podcasts. But enough about me and enough about the podcast. 

I want to introduce you to my special guest, who’s also a friend. Craig Cunningham is currently a realtor with Keller Williams, Santa Fe. And that’s how I met him. However, this is a recent career for him and he was, and correct me if I mispronounce the word, but you were a hotelier. Is that the way to say that?

Craig: Yes. 

Bunny: Yes. He’s spent 30 years in corporate sales and marketing. He’s traveled extensively. I’m going to let him tell you all the places that he’s been to, but he is the founder and principal of Cunningham + Colleagues marketing consultants. He was in the past the VP of marketing and quality for Seaport Hotels and World Centers and the VP of marketing for Core North America. So welcome Craig Cunningham.

Craig: Thanks so much for having me on your podcast.

Bunny: I’m excited. I know you have some great tips for all of our listeners. When I think about these podcasts, I always think about the people that are going to want the information we’re offering. I mean, we’re here to help people and we’re here to figure out how gratitude can make everyone’s life not just easier and simpler, but also fuller. So why don’t you start, Greg? Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us how in the world you ended up in this completely different career? And yet the truth is we’re still just marketers first and realtors, second. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell our listeners.

Craig: Yeah. So, as you said, I’ve been in marketing and sales for more than 30 years. I actually started off with an advertising and PR agency and then had the good fortune to be hired by my hotel client at the time, Wyndham hotels. At that time it was a North American chain and it’s now international. 

But from then on, I was in the hotel business. It’s definitely a career where if you are not focused on client service and the whole concept of gratitude, you’re not going to be successful. I always thought of our job as just surprising and delighting our guests and making them feel like they chose the right hotel to be with. And so it was always about waking up every day and saying, “What can I do to make somebody’s day and to give them a great experience?” And, of course, to do this you have to be grateful because they opted to choose your hotel over the million other choices that they had. 

So when I retired from the hotel business two years ago, I was trying to figure out what else I wanted to do with my life. I started doing more volunteering. I volunteer with Kitchen Angels here in Santa Fe to deliver meals to people who are not able to leave their homes. But I also started thinking of whether I wanted to do something else from a professional standpoint and the real estate business seemed like a natural extension, because it’s all about client service. You have to figure out ways to make people feel like they’ve made the right choice in working with you. So it’s all about being grateful every day and figuring out what can I do to help them today. How else can I extend what I’m doing for them in a way that they will appreciate and know that I appreciate them. So that’s what it’s really all about, because of course they could work with a million other other people

Bunny: Right. And let’s talk for just a second. Don’t you think that marketing has changed over the 30 years that you’ve been doing this? I mean, it seems to me that when we were kids, which was back before the crust cooled, we were sort of marketed at. Just talk for a minute about how marketing is different now than it was 10 years ago or 30 years ago.

Craig: It’s funny, because I was going to say the exact same thing. Back in the day, you were running a TV ad or a radio spot or a print ad and it was passive in that you just presented the information, unless you were direct sales. But really with the advent of so much digital media, you are instantly able to forge a relationship with customers through social media, through Facebook, Instagram, where you’re having a dialogue with them from the very beginning. This allows you to work in a much more personal way and to be able to find out much more quickly how you can serve those people. 

So I think it’s changed completely. Before you just sort of put it out there into the ether and hope that something worked, and now you’re able to engage. And I’ve found that so much in real estate where I’m getting emails from folks and then it evolves from the email into a phone call or a zoom call or something like that instantly. I think that’s so much better for both people. Especially for somebody like me who wants to find ways to engage with people and to be of service to them, it makes it a lot easier and more rewarding.

Bunny: I just think about the ways that I connect with my clients. It’s as if you’re somehow conveying to those people that you’re grateful that they showed up.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, my whole thought is that it’s not a transaction, it’s a relationship. And that relationship can be multifaceted. Once you’ve sold them a house or sold their house, I like to think that we’ve formed a friendship and a bond and that relationship is going to continue. And honestly, I don’t even care if I ever get another piece of business for them. Now think of them as friends. I want to have them to my house for dinner or go have coffee or something like that. 

I think that kind of thing that makes a difference for people in wanting to work with me.  It’s coming from a position of wanting to be of service to them and wanting to make them happy and finding the right solution for them. I’m working with some first-time-buyers right now and I kind of feel like they’re my kids. It’s about, okay, how can I really help them with this? And they’re grateful for the counsel I’m able to give to them, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to work with them. So it’s very rewarding. I think if you approach business relationships in the same way as you would with your friends, it’s a win-win situation for everybody.

Bunny: Well, talking about those first-time home buyers, I mean, that’s one of my favorite deals. You never make the most money from those transactions, but I’m so grateful to be reminded that we are providing the American dream when we’re selling real estate. Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s my favorite experience.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, for somebody to have their first home and to be excited about how they’re going to decorate it and what they’re going to do. And with this young couple, seeing them excited when they see a house brings out all my empathy and makes me want to really go the extra mile for them to make sure they find the right house at the right price for them. And then I just never want to stop. So then it’s like, “Okay, now I’m going to find this person for you to do the plumbing, and I’m going to find this person, etc, and I’ll be with you with you  to help explain things.” I just want to really continue to be of service.

Bunny: I talk a lot, especially on my blog, about Judy Camp, who was one of my first real estate mentors. She was a great friend and Linda Gammons partner for a long time before she passed away. But Judy Camp always says, “If you come from contribution, you can’t help but be successful.”

Craig: Yeah. I mean, just as I was saying, you can’t think of it as a transaction. I think, coming from contribution, how can I help you? How can I make this a better experience? How can I make this work? Because, especially in a real estate transaction, it can be stressful. It’s the biggest financial transaction for the majority of us. So how do you take the burden and the pressure away from them and sort of guide them through the process? I just think the main thing is that it’s much more fun, whether you’re doing volunteer work or in business, to wake up every day and figure out how I could make it fun for somebody else. Because then it’s fun for you and it gets you excited and passionate about what you’re doing.

Bunny: Well, it sounds like our big “why’s” are really similar. I certainly don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but it sounds like your big “why” is just to make the life of the people you come in contact with better.

Craig: Yeah. Of course making money is nice, but there are lots of ways to make money. It’s more about whether you are getting energy from it. And I think you really get energy when you’re working with someone and trying to figure out how you can help them, how you can make their day better, how you can make the service that you’re providing better. And also just doing things that saying, “What about if I do X, Y, Z?” and they’re  like, “Oh, you’ll do that for me?” And I’m like, “Of course.”

I have another set of clients where the transaction was fairly complicated and we were looking at lots of properties. Coming from a corporate background, I love to do spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations—things like that. And so after about the third thing we had to do, they’re like, “Oh, how are we going to organize all these bids?”  And then one of the guys said to the other guy, “Well, Craig’s going to do a spreadsheet for us. He’s probably already got it done.” So it’s that kind of thing where you’re looking for ways to make their experience better.

Bunny: So this is always a funny question for me to ask, because I have such a loose gratitude practice other than just waking up in the morning and saying, “thank you, thank you, thank you,” and then writing things down, but do you have a practice that you follow that helps you both in your business and your personal life?

Craig: Well, since I came into real estate with Keller Williams, which focuses a lot on being servant leaders and helping people, I’ve gotten into the habit of writing three things I’m grateful for that day. It could be that it’s a beautiful day or a dog or my partner or the opportunity to help somebody or the coffee’s really good that day, but waking up and appreciating what you have in your life is a good way to get in a good mindset for the rest of it.

Bunny: Oh, absolutely. Something I always say is that we kind of rewire our brains. We do. We create new neural pathways every time we say that we’re grateful. So in terms of nuts and bolts, is there a way that you let your clients know? I mean, I find that there are a lot of young people, young entrepreneurs or people who are new to business, who forget how to tell their clients how they’re grateful for them, even if it’s a line in an email. Do you have something that you do specifically over and over?

Craig: I think for me, it’s maybe more in the actions. I think of “This is really going to be helpful if I do this or if I provide this information.” I think it’s always in my voice and the way that I write. I try to always communicate openly and in a friendly and conversational manner. But then I also think “It would be really cool and really helpful if I did X , Y , Z.” I created a whole PowerPoint just on the neighborhoods in Santa Fe, because if you’re out of town it gets confusing. And that came out of a client saying, “Well, I don’t really know the neighborhoods.” And I thought that this would be a great tool for them. So I created it and then I was able to use it with others. 

So I think for me, maybe it’s sort of on the fly. I used to say in the hotel hotel business, “How can I make this a wow experience?” Because the other way to think about it is that every relationship is with people. When you’re in a service business you’re really in the business of creating memories. You can create good memories or you can create bad memory and it’s much more fun to create good memories.

Bunny: And that just comes from a spirit of generosity. I mean, you obviously want this to be the best real estate experience they’ve ever had.

Craig: Right. Right. I’m very grateful for the people that have helped me along the way. I’ve been very fortunate in my career to always work for people who were concerned about my career development and my personal development and became dear friends. And I’ve had a couple of bosses that have hired me twice in two different jobs. So I’m always grateful for the things that other people have done for me. 

So then I want to pay it forward. When I came to Keller Williams and I was introduced to the team here, there was so much openness and willingness to share and help and support. It has been fantastic. What strikes me the most is how grateful I am for what other people have done for me. And how do I pay that back?

Bunny: I mean, this is not a podcast to plug Keller Williams. It’s really more to talk about mindset, but the place where I learned it was sitting in that training room and learning that my mindset was the secret sauce. I mean, that’s the success piece, right?

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s not just about production and everything. It’s about weight and having a sense of gratitude and contribution and a sense of abundance. And I don’t mean that in a monetary way. It could be abundance in your health or your friends or all of that kind of stuff. And I think back to you. Your experience with cancer was far worse than mine, but I did have prostate cancer about nine years ago. Everyone I worked with during that entire time when I was going for radiation every day for 10 weeks was so supportive. And then on the last day of radiation, there was this very important meeting, and everyone knew it was my last day.My whole team had a celebration for me on my last day. That was turning something that was obviously a challenging situation into something where I knew they really cared about me and supported me.

Bunny: Wow. I’m interested to hear how your mindset was in the middle of that? 

Craig: I’m just by nature, an optimistic person. So even though it was scary, I felt like I was in good hands from a medical standpoint and I just felt like I was gonna beat it. I had done the education that I needed to and then it was really about having a positive mindset. 

This is probably too much information, but I’ll say it anyway. You’re doing the radiation stripped down to your boxer shorts. And so I jokingly put this Facebook thing about the fact that I needed a new pair of boxer shorts for every day. And people started sending me underwear—different pairs of boxer shorts for every day. So while I was sitting there in the big machine, where you’re sort of in there and it’s buzzing and scanning and all that kind of stuff, it got to be kind of a joke with the techs:  “Oh , what’s he going to be wearing today?”

Bunny: I love that.

Craig: That was a way to keep my spirits up. And also during that process, I really learned how to be very focused. I was in a waiting room with people that were going through, frankly, worse things than prostate cancer. Don’t get me wrong, prostate cancer is pretty serious. It is. People die from it. But I was seeing so many other people that were having a much more challenging time than I was. And we became a family. We all bonded together during that process, because we were all waiting, sometimes for an hour. So it’s things like that. And also things like the kitchen angels service, where it helps reboot you every day for how grateful you should be in your own life and grateful for the opportunity to help other people.

Bunny: Right. There are tons of people who do get what a gift it is. People who don’t even have a specific gratitude practice, but at least an attitude every day that you’re going to figure out something. I just wrote a blog post on limiting beliefs and one of the things that I wanted to convey is that we get to choose every single moment how we view the world. And maybe for somebody out there who’s brand new in business or who’s starting a new business. I just read a statistic that said that the entrepreneur demographics are changing. And now like 48% of new entrepreneurs are over 50. So hooray for the old people! 

But I know that there are people out there right now who are thinking, “Well, I’m not any good at marketing. I’m not any good at that piece of it. I can sell stuff, but I’m not good at the marketing stuff.” I’ve got to tell you, I’m married to a guy who doesn’t believe in self promotion because he came from a generation when you played down your assets, instead of being grateful for them and talking about them. So I’d love to hear what you have to say to somebody who has that limiting belief that they can’t market. And they can’t promote themselves.

Craig: You know, we could all market ourselves, and we do it every day in our interactions.  Whether we think of it as marketing or not, we’re marketing ourselves all day long in how we react and treat other people. The thought I had as you were talking about your husband thinking self-promotion sounds like a dirty word is that it doesn’t have to be you talking  about “me, me, me” and “I did this million dollars in revenue.” This is kind of a turnoff in some ways, because you’re talking about yourself. But if you’re talking about how you can help somebody else and how you can provide a good experience for them with your information and knowledge, you’re not talking about yourself in that context. You’re talking about how you can be of service. I think that’s a much easier way for a lot of people from a generation where we weren’t really supposed to be talking about ourselves.

Bunny: Well, it was pre-social media. Our face wasn’t out there. We just weren’t trained to tell people, “Here’s the reason you should hire me instead of the other person.”

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, now we’re all our own brands on social media. But I think that rather than saying to somebody, “Here’s why you should hire me versus somebody else,” you should just talk about how you can be of service in what you do in an authentic way. Then people are more likely to want to work with you, because you’re radiating a sense of positivity and an interest in them. And they’re not thinking that you just look at them as a transaction and then you’re onto the next person.

Bunny: I frequently use with my marketing coaching clients the example of a dinner party. If you went into a dinner party (and this is for people who are just beginning in whatever business they’re in, especially if they’re self-employed), you wouldn’t simply walk in, take your coat off and say, “Hey, I’m selling something, come and talk to me.” Right? I mean, that’s what you don’t want to do with marketing. You want to start by building a relationship. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Craig: I think it goes all the way back to Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. People do like to talk about themselves. And so the first thing is you should be listening. That was one of the first things I learned in marketing client service. You need to ask questions and learn from your clients. Focus on what they need, as opposed to talking about yourself. You really want to establish a dialogue with them about their wants and needs and hopes and fears and everything else. Then you can talk about how you can address them. But nobody wants to go in and all of a sudden have you sit down and say, “Here’s my PowerPoint about me and what I’ve done.” It should be more of establishing, from the very beginning, a relationship of openness with folks. Then, after hearing from them, you can say “Well, here’s how I think I can you and here are some ideas that I have that I could share with you.” So I think a key thing is really listening from the very beginning.

Bunny: I even found that to be helpful when I used to first go on listing appointments. I was so nervous that I would sit down and I would immediately try to book an appointment. You know, if you’re not in real estate, a listing appointment is just like sitting down with a prospective customer. I would be so nervous in the beginning and really coming from a place of scarcity where I thought, “If I don’t get this listing, I’m not sure I can pay the rent next month.” And if you’re coming from a place of scarcity, you’re likely to self-sabotage. But that’s such good advice because things changed when I finally learned how to sit back and listen: “I’m here to help you. Tell me what it is that you need. Talk to me.” It’s so powerful to give a client time to talk to you. And I think people forget to do that, right?

Craig: Yeah. And I think sometimes we do it because we’re afraid. What I’ve learned so much over the years in business working with people is that people are terrified of silence, so they will immediately start talking. If there’s a second of silence, you jump in and start babbling. Lord knows I do it. But if you just let somebody talk and let it sort of sit there for a second and not just try to be filling in all the time. It drives me crazy when people are doing that. It’s much better if you can have the client talk and then ask some more questions and then be warm and reflective about it. Back to the Dale Carnegie thing, I think one of his first points was if you’re at the dinner party, ask people about themselves. Most people do like to talk about themselves. So ask them and don’t just start talking about yourself. 

Bunny: I think that even people who would say, “I don’t like to talk about myself,” really do want somebody to ask them and listen to them.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s not just asking them to go on and on. It’s more meaningful questions about, for example, why they decided to move here. Just those kinds of questions that get them thinking. Growing up in materialistic Dallas, the joke was that the questions at a party were like, “Where do you live? What do you do? What do you drive?” And so it’s not questions like that. It’s asking them more about their life experience,

Bunny: You just brought me to another completely different point, which is for any realtors out there listening: I think it’s really important to convey to your clients how grateful you are for where you live. I mean, if our lifestyle is such a selling point, don’t you think you should share that?

Craig: Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, living in Santa Fe there’s so much beauty. I’m looking out my window right now at the beautiful blue sky. When I leave my house in the morning and I see the mountains, and then when I’m coming home at night and the sun is setting over the mountains and I see all the different colors and everything, it’s just breathtaking. It’s great to live in such a great and wonderful environment and in a place that is very spiritual, going back with the native Americans—respect for the earth and nature and all of those things—I think it does help center us more than a lot of other places.

Bunny: How do you convey that to your clients? I know you’re doing something really cool online that’s different from some other realtors.

Craig: Well, I’m not just posting on my Facebook page,” Hey, I just sold this house or just sold that house.” Well, that’s great. But I’m more talking about new experiences in Santa Fe: new restaurants, or a new place to go hiking, or something exciting that’s happening at one of the museums or things like that—enthusiastically talking about the experience of living in Santa Fe. And if down the road, by the way, you’re looking at this stuff and you decide you want to buy a house here, I would love to help you. But it’s more about conveying the reason why we all want to live here

Bunny: And tell us about your blog, because I think it’s amazing.

Craig: So I created this blog, which is called Santa Fe Scenes. It’s that same kind of thing where it’s just talking about having fun in Santa Fe. One of the things was, you know, we’ve got the old Santa Fe trail and we’ve got the old Pincus trail, but did you know that we had a Margarita trail and a Chocolate trail? Stuff like that. Just being whimsical about it and talking about some of the things are unique about the city and sharing my own passion for Santa Fe. I was very fortunate to be able to do a lot of international travel for my job. I was grateful for the opportunity that I was given to see places that I wouldn’t have seen otherwise from Bogota to Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro and Beijing and places like that. So I’ve always been enthusiastic about travel and now living in such a beautiful place like Santa Fe, I want to share that enthusiasm with people.

Bunny: And you’re getting some good feedback on that I bet, right?

Craig: Yes, I am. I’m getting good feedback on it. It’s been a wonderful thing to reconnect with friends who are saying, “Good for you, you old dog! You’re back out there trying something new.” Because whenever someone says, “Oh, you’re a new realtor,” I say, “Well, I’m an old new realtor. I’m 61 and I’m starting this for the first time.” But it’s been great from that perspective and the support that you get from your friends. Then people are saying, “Oh, well, I know somebody who might be interested in sending you that information.” I think that’s one of the positive things that social media has done where we’ve been able to reconnect with so many people that we might have completely lost touch with.

Bunny: Oh yeah. I did a post not very long ago about how grateful I was, and it was in the middle of all the fear over Facebook and Twitter. And I just said that it’s such a great platform for reconnecting with cousins that I haven’t seen since I was six. I mean, I just turned 60. I’m an old dog and this is a new trick for me, but I think that if you use it the right way, it’s a real gift. I also think there are so many realtors, like you said, who just post either pictures of houses that they have listed or their accomplishments. And I think they’re really missing an opportunity.

Craig: Yeah. Because then you’re just talking at someone. You’re not sharing information and excitement about things with them. People don’t want to look at that stuff. They want to look at things like the fact that there are like six great chocolate tiers in Santa Fe. And then the next time I’m in town, I want to go to each one of them. Or discovering an amazing new hiking trail or a beautiful image of a shop window or a piece of art or something like that. 

Bunny: Yeah, it’s so much better than “I just listed this house at 123 main street. Don’t you wish you owned it?” Exactly.

Craig: Exactly. I think more people would react to it. I’d really like to have some of that green chili chocolate over at The Chocolate Smith or whatever. It’s much more interesting than a picture of a kitchen that has granite countertops. Oh my goodness.

Bunny: And, you know, Craig, I found that people will call me and they’ll say, “Well, I’ve been following you on Facebook for two years. And I feel like you’re my best friend. I think you’d be the right person to show me around and help me find a house.” And I bet that’s happening to you too.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s funny, you mentioned that. One of the people I’ve been mentoring told me a story about how she posted a lovely picture of herself and then somebody called her and said, “I feel like I already know you because you just look like a nice person and I feel like I can trust you.” I think also that it’s our eyes and our smile and everything that conveys so much of what you’re talking about. If you have a spirit of gratitude and service and a sense of abundance, not scarcity, it shows in your face, your eyes, your smile, and your whole persona.

Bunny: Well, we’re going to have to wrap up here in a minute, but I would love to hear if you have just three great tips that you would give to somebody who feels kind of stuck in their marketing. It could be what you’ve learned in 30 years or in the last three days, whatever it is.

Craig: I think one is changing your question from “How do I market myself?” to “What can I do for this client?” or “What can I do that’s going to excite the people? How can I make them feel appreciated and valued?” And this can work in cases where you’re actually working one-on-one with a client or cases where you’re trying to figure out how to promote what you’re doing. How do I find ways to surprise and delight people? So I like to do that with social media buys, where you come up with quirky, little things to talk about that are authentically Santa Fe or a funny picture of my dog or something like that. You want to put a smile on people’s faces. And social media gives us so many opportunities to be able to do that in ways that we couldn’t before. So the main thing at the end of it is to put your client first, and then I think everything else will come from there.

Bunny: You’re absolutely right. I think as long as your passion is helping people, then success is just a natural by-product of that.

Craig: Exactly. People feel that energy and then they want to tell their friends about you.

Bunny: What I’ve found is that people want to be able to trust somebody, especially in this business where they’re making possibly the biggest purchase of their life.

Craig: Right? I’m thinking back to these younger clients. We were touring houses, and they were interested in one particular house and I was like, “No, I’m not going to let you buy this. This is not the right move.” And I think all of a sudden they’re like, “Wow, he really cares. He’s not just thinking ‘Tick tock, tick tock. We’ve seen three houses.’” This is not House Hunters International where there are the three properties and you have to buy one. So again, it’s not a transaction. It’s a journey. It’s a relationship.

Bunny: I think that’s the most important tip for somebody to take away. Whether you’re selling widgets or earrings or house cars or houses, this is not a transaction. It’s a relationship. We want people to trust you and come back over and over. I don’t know how you can love your job if you’re not doing it the way we’re doing it.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. And have fun with it. We get to meet interesting people all day long. We get to see things. We get to use our own creativity to express ourselves. I know there are people that are in jobs that don’t have that. But I also read things about  the janitor in an elementary school who takes real pride in what they do, and they are going to do the best job that they possibly can. So I think in almost everything, you can come at it with a mindset of “How can I make this a great experience for me and for others?”

Bunny: That’s great stuff. Tell us where people can find you and where they can find your blog.

Craig: Well, probably the most fun thing I’m doing is the Santa Fe Scenes blog. 

Bunny: Okay. And we’ll share that on the information page for the podcast. And then, of course, if people want to buy a house from you, they can find you through there?

Craig: Yeah. All my information is on there. So one stop shop.

Bunny: Craig, I’m so excited that you were here. This was fun. I think we could do it again.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Bunny: Because I think this is the place where people get stuck. People who are self-employed get stuck in this part. And so I think there’s a lot of stuff that we can talk about.  But I’m of course really grateful that you agreed to talk with us.

Craig: Oh, thanks. It’s been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. 

Bunny: And to everybody else, thanks for being here. This is once again, the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry. You are welcome to go to my website if you’d like to learn more about me and about buying my book, which is all about gratitude and how gratitude helped me kick stage four cancer’s ass. And we’d love to have you follow us and subscribe on spot Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks so much, Craig.

Craig: Thank you. Next time.