Authentic Gratitude: Danielle Ripley-Burgess

Bunny: (00:02)
Welcome to the Lifesaving gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry with my cohost Johanna Medina. And today we’re talking to Danielle Ripley Burgess. Danielle is not only the author of a couple of books, but she is a colon cancer survivor just like me! The only difference is that Danielle was diagnosed when she was 17 years old, which is almost unheard of. But lest you think that colon cancer is just an old man’s disease. It’s really not. More and more people are being diagnosed with colon cancer every day. But what I was struck with when we did this, when we talked to Danielle, was that every single time we start a podcast, I think the conversation is going to go, going to go one particular way. And I have an idea of what we’re going to talk about, and then it just, it, it ends up being much deeper and, and much different from what I thought it was going to be. Was it, did you think the same thing, Johanna?

Johanna: (01:16)
Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I always think that, you know, I have a kind of on-paper view of how these people are usually, if it’s not somebody I really know, then I kind of think, oh yeah, maybe it’s going to go one way. I had met and knew Danielle a little bit from Fight CRC, but I didn’t know the, like you said, the depths of her story, and I think we also caught her, like she mentions in the episode, at a really hard time. She doesn’t go into details about what’s going on, but she does even say, this is one of the hardest weeks she’s had since cancer. So it’s obviously something really, really hard. And, you know, I really appreciate her coming on anyway and even sharing where she is in that in the moment right now, and feeling like that’s important to share, to not to always share the happy endings of stories, but to also be able to talk and share during the suffering too. So I was really grateful for that.

Bunny: (02:28)
Well, and I think she, she alluded to being authentic and this was a podcast where our guest was completely authentic and I just think you want to stay tuned, stay to the very end to see, first you want to hear her story because she was a junior in high school and had been suffering some rectal bleeding for years and because of a body image that, that I would say almost the majority of young women face these days, she was afraid to talk about what her body was doing. She’s here to tell a story, and it’s a really important story. So, um, stay tuned for Daniel Ripley Burgess.

Johanna: (03:16)
And be sure to check out the podcast description, wherever you’re listening for links to find Danielle and the things she’s working on. And you can also find those links on our website at bunnyterry.com/podcast.

Bunny: (03:32)
So Danielle, I’m so excited that you’re our guests today. I always like to let folks know how you and I got acquainted. And I, I know you also met Johanna at the same time. I came for the first time to Fight Colorectal Cancer’s, call on Congress in March of 2014. And I had already read your blogs before I had followed some of the things that you did for the organization then, but that’s how we met. I think it’s really you know, we’re going to touch on how you became an advocate, but tell us just a little bit quickly what Fight Colorectal Cancer is and how you became involved so that people know how you and I came together.

Danielle: (04:30)
Yeah, well, I met, yeah, we met at Call on Congress in DC, and that was actually, that was my second event. So I hadn’t been too involved though. So I am a colorectal cancer survivor. I think I should probably start there. Yes, I was diagnosed with Colon Cancer a few weeks after I turned 17. I was a junior in high school. Just out of nowhere, I hadn’t even heard of colon cancer. So when they told me that’s what I was dealing with, I was pretty shocked, but I was also very young. And I like to say ignorance is bliss because I really didn’t understand what I was dealing with. So after my diagnosis, I did what I needed to do to get through treatment and kind of get, get back on with my life. But over the years as that happened, cancer kind of kept entering my world. And I say, it’s not like it ever went away. I was going to doctor’s appointments and checkups and things, but being so young, I hadn’t fully processed what that meant and found meaning for it because I was so busy trying to get married and go to college and just start, start my life, you know, be young twenties. But around that time has probably in my mid-twenties, when I really did start thinking about the fact that I was a cancer survivor and what that meant to me, I was also facing fear recurrence, um, and just kind of in a place where I realized I probably needed more support than I had prior previously had. And so that is part of how I got connected with colorectal cancer or we nickname it Fight CRC. I’d actually first gotten involved with a smaller group. That’s a grassroots organization called the Colon Club. And the colon club focuses on telling stories of people diagnosed under age 50, and they were doing a project at the time called the colander and I got selected to be in it. And so here I was Midwestern girl from middle of the country. Here I come from Kansas City, Missouri. They fly me to New York, upstate New York. It’s beautiful. We do a photo shoot. And all of a sudden I’m meeting a lot of other people like me and I had never met another colon cancer survivor before that point, much less a younger person. And that weekend just really changed my life. And because I was still so young now, although this was about seven years after my initial diagnosis. So it was far out for me, but yet I was still very young. I was in my mid twenties. I found a lot of purpose in that weekend and that put me on a path toward being more involved in advocacy, looking for other survivors. And then just this passion for storytelling, and telling my story. I had gone to college to do public relations and writing and editing. So it’s just one of those things. Our worlds collided and a colon club model introduced me to Fight CRC. And they were coming through my town and they were looking for survivor stories. They were about to launch an awareness campaign and he said, Hey, they’re going to be in your neighborhood. You should check this group out. So I met them, told my story and like a lot of stories go the rest of history. They were looking for communications support. They were growing, they wanted to do some big things and wanted to communicate. They wanted to hire a communications director and said, Danielle, would you come do this? And I said, you guys just offered me my dream job, you have no idea. So I just stumbled into it. It’s crazy and stumbled into it. And yeah, Bunny, we met. I was new at the time. I had only been there about a year when, when we met and I served in that role for about five years. So I got us up and going, got the team, got the department, so to say established, and then, did step away out of that full-time role a few years ago, just to balance family and mental health with the demands of a job like that. It was pretty big. But I’ve been real fortunate to stay connected with the team. And I’m back in a role, I’m a limited role, but I’m our chief storyteller at Fight CRC. So now I’m just narrowly focused on telling nice story and then looking for other survivors stories to tell.

Bunny: (09:09)
I love that. And I want to very quickly tell our [listeners] that you’ve written a book you’ve actually published two books, um, blush how I barely survived, 17, which is about your experience, it’s life experience, but also this big looming cancer issue. And we’re gonna post links so that people can find both your books. And then you did this amazing piece that the advent devotionals that I love, but I want, first of all, I want people to know before we begin that I know a lot of the, you know, when I ask you a question, I’ve re-read your book. In fact, I read it when I got it. And then over the last couple of days, I re-read it. And it is such a story of I mean, this is what happens when we get cancer. It’s like, it’s incredible first. It’s your’re so bewildered, I mean, even at 51, when I was diagnosed with stage IV, colon cancer, I was, I thought what I liked the most, I’m the healthiest person I know, and you’re bewildered. And then of course you’re frightened and then you’re sort of resigned. You know, you talk about how you know, those lower body only you get to where you heard that you had more lower body exams than most men have in their lifetime. I know exactly how that feels, but the book is such a story of hope. So maybe the best way to do this is for you just to start, you know, what, what led up to your diagnosis and, and, and what should people know? And we have a lot of listeners who like you, when you were diagnosed are sorta like colon cancer. That’s like an old white man’s disease, or there’s so many misconceptions, especially about younger people being diagnosed. Don’t you find that?

Danielle: (11:14)
Oh yeah, absolutely. It’s getting I dunno if it’s the right word is getting better.

Bunny: (11:20)
Well, it’s improving.

Danielle: (11:22)
Let’s see, the awareness is improving. The reality is rates are increasing, so that’s not good. It’s improving because people are getting sicker younger and younger with this. Yeah.

Bunny: (11:35)
Tell us the parts of your story that you want to share with our listeners.

Danielle: (11:38)
Sure. Well, thanks for, thanks for reading Blush. It was a labor of love and it was a, it was a process. It was about a five-year process to write the book because as I was writing, I was healing. And that is why I did take that step away from Fight CRC, because I knew I was not able to hold my story and give it the space it needed and hold other people’s stories. Full-time. So that was a big career move. I just sensed that it was right for me. And I wrote the book, you know, one to definitely encourage other survivors and other people going through cancer. But I started at the beginning, you know, I take people through when I’m in fourth grade and going through puberty and getting my period and throwing my salad away at lunch and trying not to eat much because I wanted to be skinnier like my friends. And so I started going into just this body shame and self image that this negative self-image that I carried as a young female that I don’t think I’m alone in. I think a lot of young females can relate to just being confused about your body when you’re young and not liking what you see, especially when you don’t feel like you look like people on TV and magazines and these days on Instagram. So that’s why I started where I do, because one of the biggest questions I’ve been asked over the years is how could I see blood in the store, which was my main symptom. How could I see it so long and not tell anybody? Because I estimate I saw that symptom probably starting in eighth grade, so a good three or four years before I ever saw a doctor. And I have to say, you know, you have to understand how I was feeling at the time and what I was going through and what I was carrying. You know, the last thing I wanted to do is stop and talk about my body and look at my own body, much less, have somebody else look at it and know what was going on. So that was a big motivation of just bringing awareness to, especially I wanted moms and young girls to know how to have these hard conversations and the critical nature of hard conversations when you’re young. So that’s where I started. And that’s a big piece. I always want people to know, you know, this isn’t an this isn’t a usual story I get. It’s pretty unique. It’s still considered rare. Even with early onset colorectal cancer rates on the rise. I mean, a teen with this disease is still quite odd. But you know, looking back there were some things I would have done differently and there were some stories that I couldn’t tell back then that I needed to tell. So that’s a big piece of my story.

Johanna: (14:41)
What finally got you to the point where you did say something is wrong, or you know, where you did finally get, I guess, comfortable enough to tell someone that.

Danielle: (14:53)
So I say, I said, I feel like I got busted too. So another layer of this, as you know, you guys know when you’re diagnosed with cancer, it’s not like that’s the only thing going on in your world. It sometimes just reveals everything else going. So in the midst of this, you know, my parents were not getting along. They were fighting, they were in a really unhealthy relationship. So that was part of why I did not insert myself into the family conversation if something’s wrong with me. Cause I just was trying to stay hidden as much as I could. But this guy I was dating was awesome. He had been my best friend and then moved to college and we were like, oh gosh, we miss each other more than we thought we would. So we start dating and it’s actually one night on the phone to him that I had a pretty scary situation where I saw a lot of blood, like more than usual. And I didn’t tell him exactly what was going on, but I told him, Hey, I was like, I think I need to see a doctor. I think something’s wrong. And you know, a few years prior to that, I had told my mom, I was seeing a little blood and she looked it up and it, we thought it was hemorrhoids because that seemed to make sense for what I was seeing. But as the years went on, things got that bad. And so I mentioned it to my boyfriend and he started pestering me to see a doctor. And to be honest, my, the reason, the only reason I went to a doctor is my parents overheard him and then realized this little problem. I’d mentioned a few years prior was still going on, rush me to the GI. And from there, there was no more hiding it and I was busted.

Johanna: (16:45)
Yeah. I’m glad he did that. Yeah.

Danielle: (16:49)
Well who I married. Yeah.

Bunny: (16:53)
That’s the next, piece, yes. He’s your hero in a lot of different ways.

Danielle: (17:00)
Yeah.

Bunny: (17:01)
But you were in your junior year of high school. I mean, I, um, you, you were worried about grades and about your parents and about, um, it, it is true that when cancer shows up, it’s just it’s, I mean, people think it’s, it is all encompassing, but it’s also just another piece of your life and you have to learn to continue to navigate your life while you’re doing that. Right?

Danielle: (17:25)
Right. Yeah. Definitely. I don’t know a survivor who’s been fortunate to like, kind of have nothing going on. And then all of a sudden, like you’re balancing family and relationships and a job or school in my case. And you know, life’s not exactly easy for anybody. So cancer is just a magnifying glass on how well you really are or are not doing

Bunny: (17:56)
Well. And so you did you had surgery and some treatment, you were stage three, as I recall. And if you’re like me, when I was diagnosed, I didn’t have any clue what those stages meant. So tell people what stage three means.

Danielle: (18:13)
Yeah, I was stage three. So it means it was not only in my colon, but it was in several lymph nodes that they had removed during surgery. So, because it was in the lymph system, it could have been circulating anywhere. And so we needed some aggressive treatment to make sure that if it was in other cells and they couldn’t tell any metastasis, which that would be stage IV Bunny, like you, they didn’t see it in any organs yet. But they went ahead and I didn’t realize this actually until working with Fight CRC and learning all the treatment protocols, because back then my parents decided all, I was just going to where I was told. Yeah. But in learning how they treat late stage colorectal cancer, which is stage three and four, they treated me like a stage four patient. And I didn’t know that back then. So they were so concerned with my age and what they were seeing, that they went ahead and, and did the full regimen. They were, it was relentless. So that was, I had surgery, chemotherapy and radiation.

Bunny: (19:24)
So you’re 17. You, you survive obviously, because you’re here talking to us and you get through all of that. And then what happened?

Danielle: (19:39)
My parents got divorced. Yeah.

Bunny: (19:42)
One other thing you talk about being in therapy and how your feelings were like the layers of a cake. That’s like, that’s such a great visual because that’s what your feelings look like. Especially you’re,e already an adolescent, which is its own sort of disease sometimes, right?

Danielle: (20:03)
Yeah.

Johanna: (20:05)
Something to survive in itself, right?

Danielle: (20:09)
Yeah. Yeah. I’m 17. You know, after I finished treatment, I went on to senior year and graduated high school on time. I knew I wanted to go into communications work out of high school. And so went to a school, not too far, but had a really great PR program. My parents did end up splitting my first one year of college, which is kind of another hurdle to get through. But after that, you know, I went, I went through college. Mike and I did end up getting married and started career bought a home. We kind of just started to build a life. And the interesting turn in my stories, you know, I mentioned, I I’m building this life, getting involved in the cancer community as a survivor. I’m like, oh, it can be pretty inspirational to, you know, other people. And then I didn’t realize though how much I would need that community because I did end up facing a second cancer. And during a routine colonoscopy. It had been three years and my doctor saw something that he didn’t think he’d ever see before. At that point, he didn’t think it was… He wasn’t sure it was cancer and actually tested that it wasn’t. But he, I remember waking up from that scope and he said Danielle, I think your cancers… I think it’s going to try and come back. And he said, I think we need to be aggressive and, uh, have a surgery to remove almost all of your large intestine. It’s called a subtotal colectomy. So he left me about 13 inches and he said, I think that way it’s less to scope less to monitor because for some reason your colon has grown polyps. And I think they’re going to turn cancerous. So fortunately he made that pretty strong recommendation that I go ahead and have the surgery. I sat on it for awhile. I didn’t want to do it, but I took his advice about six months later, I had that surgery. And thank goodness I did, because what he found actually was cancer again. And so here I am 25 years old. It was eight years after my first diagnosis. And then I’m facing colon cancer a second time. This one was stage one, which means it was local. So it hadn’t spread anywhere else. It was all contained in that spot, which is why you get screened. That’s why you hear everyone say, get screened for colon cancer. Because if you can, if you can find it there early, it’s a less, um, physical fight because I just, I had the surgery. It was not a cakewalk, but a bathroom. And I didn’t need treatment after that. Wow.

Johanna: (22:58)
Well, it’s just so crazy. You think, you know, I already went through this once and I went through all the treatment and now I’m done and you know, shouldn’t be something you have to worry about again and then to have to, to get that news again. I can’t imagine. I mean, I know that’s mom always a fear of yours. Every time you go for a scan and like, is it going to come back? No matter how long it’s been.

Bunny: (23:23)
I actually, I recently visited, I had a visit with a chiropractor and we were talking about, I had frozen shoulder and he said, it feels to me like you hold a lot of tension in your shoulders. He said, “is some of that health-related?” And I said, I have to tell you that once you go through the sort of cancer scare, you sort of think to yourself, okay. I did my part now, you know, I’d like for the bad health piece to touch somebody else, it’s like, I’ve already done my gig my time. Right. I do have some of that. Did you?

Danielle: (24:01)
Yeah. I don’t know. I feel like I’m still on the carousel. Um, yeah.

Bunny: (24:08)
Well, and that’s the thing. We stay on it. It’s, that’s the myth that, that, you know, life hard, life stops happening. But you talked about early, when you were young in the fourth grade, going through puberty, you really, um, you didn’t love your body. And then after you get cancer, my experience was that I sort of ha I was ticked off. I was like, my body betrayed me. And like you, I was also ticked off at God. I was like I played by all the rules. I did all the things. Talk, talk to me a little bit about that. Anger, if you feel comfortable with that, that anger at your body, anger, anger, just anger.

Danielle: (24:53)
Oh yeah. Lots of anger.

Bunny: (24:54)
Yeah. You have to, you have to figure out a way to get through it. Don’t you?

Danielle: (24:58)
Oh, yeah. You know, I, I don’t know if I didn’t feel angry when I was 17 or just didn’t have the tools to process that. But when I was 25 facing cancer, a second time in the middle of, you know, the, one of the prime of my life. I got, I got really angry. I did need therapy to help me get in touch with that. But that process was starting to be honest with how I felt, and I was angry about, just about everything. And actually what turned out to be one of the more healing pieces of it is, is letting myself get angry, or I guess, admit that I was angry at God, because I have yet to meet a person where it doesn’t go to that depth. You know, I think we work through the layers, you know, I’m mad at myself and none of my family amount of my friends for deserting me and mad at my, you know, everything like my body, definitely betrayal. Like you work through that, but like the deeper you go, it’s kind of, you hit body and to hit, I’m mad at my body. It’s betrayed me as pretty deep. But then if you can get to, I don’t know how you can’t at least wrestle with being mad at God and be in an honest relationship or like, having on his face. I just, I don’t know if that’s fair to say, because I would probably say my faith was as genuine as it could have been when I was younger, based on what I understood. But it’s just when you get sick, like we’ve been, and if you believe in some sort of higher God, for me, I’m a Christian. So that’s where I put a lot of my hope and faith, but like, I don’t know how it doesn’t rock your world and I don’t know how you don’t eventually go there to get through it. I think you have to reckon with that. And that is something I was not taught when I was younger, growing up in the faith is that it’s okay to be angry with God. It’s okay to cuss him out. It’s okay to like, let loose on him if you, if you need that. Now when I went back, when I was coached in that way of seeing God, that way he can handle it. And then I like went back into scripture and actually saw that for myself. It’s like much of the Psalms. It gave me a new perspective, but it was definitely an unlearning and relearning of a lot of things, particularly when it came to faith.

Bunny: (27:35)
I actually had a mentor who talked to me at one time and she said, it’s okay for your prayer to be, God, I am so pissed off at you today. Yeah. So you got to hear me and you gotta, and you know, it’s, you know, there are a lot, a lot of layers, a lot of different layers to our faith, but like you, I’m a Christian too. And I think that, you know, God wants to hear from you, whatever, whatever it is that you need to tell him, it’s, that’s important, but it’s, but it is important to figure out. I mean, when we talk about how stories save us, I think that everybody has this impression that we’re going to tell stories that are all goodness and light and happy endings, but there is a lot of slogging through stuff in the middle. And we still slog through stuff every day. I mean, we still have that, but talk, talk a little bit about, um, how that negative peace and all that anger turned into something different afterwards. I mean, sometimes it’s a gift to have to go through that. It’s not like you would have chosen it for yourself in the beginning.

Danielle: (28:47)
Right? Yeah. It’s,you know, it’s funny in all the different avenues that are in my story, I guess. So to say there’s all these different themes, you know, different people are going to relate to me and different levels. I will say, after publishing my book, hands down, I get more comments on getting angry with God and something about that. I don’t know if maybe a lot of people are like me where it’s just, you need to hear, or you just need to be given permission to go there. You know, it’s not irreverent it’s if you believe in having a relationship with God, then that’s part of having a relationship with him is getting angry and it’s okay. So for me I’m still learning. I would hate to have listeners think that I’ve got this all figured out. I very much in, in process of applying this practice to all areas of life, but I guess I have learned that the more honest you can get with yourself and how you feel and who you authentically are. And when you can take that to safe places, whether it be God or friends, usually you need both at some point, safe people to process that with it’s a, it’s like a crucifying journey, but it will lead you to the other side, which I’ve found to be peace. And when I have pushed away the feelings, I’ve either pretended they’re not, they’re hidden them, I’ve disassociated. Sometimes I have no control. It’s what my brain is doing. And survival mode, you know, when I deny my authenticity, I get real wound up and bound up. But when I can just like, kind of be free, to be honest and be who I am and what I’m feeling. And then I combine my faith with, especially, it will take me to more places of hope and light and love and freedom and all the things we want to find at the end of the rainbow that my faith tells me, are there, part of being a Christian for me is that the whole message is that you can get there, it’s there, but you go through a cross, like you, you go through suffering to get to that. And so anybody who’s looking for that, that hasn’t gone through a suffering journey. The day they step into suffering, it’s a rude awakening. And I’m trying to get more comfortable with suffering the older I get, because I don’t think it’s going away. But, um, it’s this, it’s this balance of like learning how to suffer well and persevere through it and hanging onto hope that this will end, somehow. It might be, sometimes it ends in the kingdom. You can see sometimes it ends in the kingdom you can’t see, but it will end.

Bunny: (31:55)
You just, you said something. I mean, I wanted to be writing while you were talking, but I had, I wanted to pay attention as well. You said when I don’t live in my authenticity, I get really wound up and bound up. I think. I mean, that’s, that feels to me like something that you want to put on an index card and keep with you. I mean the whole wound up and bound up by idea. I don’t, people tend to live their lives, wound up and bound up. It’s really hard to escape that. What, what, what would you tell them? I mean, I know you just told them, but what’s the simplest even?

Johanna: (32:38)
How, how you live in your authenticity or find that space. I’m sure it’s an ongoing process, but yeah..

Danielle: (32:48)
I have found the most helpful thing to help me be aware of when I’m wound up and I’m bounded up, is I have to put myself intentionally around other people who maybe are not like me. People who don’t look like me, people who don’t think like me, people don’t feel like I do. I think that human nature, we can be tempted to surround ourselves with sameness. And to just be honest, like, I have been coached by an amazing black woman who has navigated some of the hardest waters of faith with me and her journey through life is different than mine. And I see things through a different lens and I can see where I’m wound up and bound up and she sees in me that I didn’t see in myself, you know. I have a dear friend who’s here from Honduras comes from a hard background of abuse and trauma. And then she’s now in our country as a Latina experiencing different things. And it’s not just race, like any, anything that can have another human being live experience. It’s different than you forming real relationship with people who aren’t like me helps me understand that, I guess. And makes me want to understand their experience. And oftentimes I find they have freedom in areas I don’t and vice versa. I have freedom, freedom in some areas I haven’t experienced. And it’s that shared experience that helps me.

Bunny: (34:41)
Well. And I mean, people tend to call each other out when they’re sharing. You know, it sounds, you know, maybe your mentor every once in a while I said, hang on. I mean, I don’t want to say anything explicit here, but, but they call you on your crap sometimes.

Johanna: (34:57)
You can cuss on your own podcast, mom it’s okay.

Bunny: (35:01)
Okay. Well, they call you on your bullshit. But the other part it’s I also think we get more authentic as, I mean I’m 60 years old and I’m learning stuff every single day, especially when I get to talk to people like you. Last week, we did a podcast with a woman who was sexually abused as a child when she was four years old, but then went on to create this ministry of helping survivors of sex trafficking. And when I… there’s, this there’s process that I don’t completely understand. But when you’re, like you say, when you’re with people who are living lives that are very different from yours, when you’re continuing to learn about the human condition and you’re making yourself really open to how other people’s lives have been changed and rewritten, not in ways they planned, you know, none of us, none of us when we were in sixth grade would have written the story of the life that we’ve ended up with. And yet what a gift it’s been in a lot of ways. So you’re right. When you expose yourself to people who aren’t like you, regardless of their situation, it makes you more aware of how you are. Am I saying that in any way eloquently? I can’t.

Johanna: (36:28)
Also, I love that advice too, because I mean, It’s such great advice because I was going to say, sorry, kind of lost my train of thought, but I love that advice because I think when you’re feeling down or just not feeling good about yourself, or, you know, you’re not in a great state of mind, you can tend to go like into your comfort zone more or tend to just try to be, you know, just really kind of isolate. And it’s sometimes more like the automatic response, but having that, knowing that, okay, actually I do need to get out and expose myself to other people and also get, get some perspective on things too. I think that’s such a great way to put it. So I love that advice.

Bunny: (37:18)
Well, we have to talk about gratitude. I mean, I’m so grateful that you’re sharing your story, but do you have a daily practice? Do you have one? You know, my daily practice is the Anne Lamott prayer where the minute I wake up, I say, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.

Danielle: (37:35)
She’s my favorite author. I love that you just mentioned her.

Bunny: (37:37)
Oh mine too.

(37:41)
I was like, oh, Anne Lamott yes.

Johanna: (37:46)
Were always either quoting Anne Lamott or Brene Brown on here.

Danielle: (37:49)
Yeah.

Bunny: (37:53)
And have you read Frederick Buechner? He’s one of my favorites too. She says, he’s her favorite theology, but let’s talk about your gratitude practice if you want.

Danielle: (38:06)
Yeah. So I feel like it’s changed over the years. I feel like I’ll get in a mode where before I went to bed, I’ll fill a whole one page journal. So I did a journal for a little while and that helped sometimes it’s, you know, with my daughter, like we’ll practice. She’ll get in the car, we’ll do top fives of the day. At one point before dinner, we used to have good through the day. We’d go around and say that, and we’ve, ebbed in and out of these practices over the years, based on our schedule and just where we are as a family. But I will say this week, I was thinking about this question and I’ve had just a hard week, a painful week. And one that, you know, it’s bad when my husband says this rivals cancer, like just, just a gruesome week. And I’ve been in those places lately where it’s just dark and the places where the suffering of life takes, you can be really hard. And as I was looking for just not even steps out, but just like the next stepping stone through it this weekend. I had the idea of like find some gratitude, like find joy. And so I actually went and I bought like four cards and there have been a couple people who’ve just been pivotal in navigating the past week. And so I sat down on Sunday and wrote these cards out to them and just, you know, thank them for being there and kind of the role they’ve played. And looking back even a few days now, since then, I do see that, that was helpful. You know, it was just probably as helpful to me to sit down and, and thank them for being there as it will be for them to receive that. And that’s what I’m kind of learning is sometimes if I’m not in a place where I can’t fill a note, like a whole page of what I’m thankful for in the moment, like even just one card or like four cards being grateful for the light I did find in the darkness is helping me make my way through.

Bunny: (40:27)
Danielle. I don’t want to, everything you just said was so important, but you also said I’m not, I wasn’t looking for the step for the way out. I was just looking for the next stepping stone through. And I thought it’s people tend to look for really quick solutions to suffering or the easiest solutions to suffering. And when I, when I was diagnosed my pastor said he prayed this prayer. Not that I would be healed or anything. He just said, I want you to have blinders on, you know, God give her blinders so that she’ll only see the next thing in front of her, because you can do with grace and with God’s help. And with the love of people, you can do the next thing in front of you. And I think that’s an important lesson that people, people tend to try to think in these huge, broad, sweeping, results or answers. And sometimes it’s just the next stepping stone. That was, that was, that was important for me to hear at that moment.

Danielle: (41:42)
Thanks. Yeah, that was, that was something I felt like I gave me the other day is I tend to be that person, like a communications planner, like for a career. So I’m always thinking like, what’s the goal? What’s the big picture? What are the strategies to get there? Like, I’m constantly thinking ultimate, where are we heading? And so when I find myself in a struggle of challenge, it’s like, I can’t think like that right now. And I was actually on a jog. And that was something where, I was as jogging around my neighborhood, I’m trying to get back in shape. Running’s hard for me after all the cancer stuff and I was jogging and I was like, I don’t think I can keep going. And I just, I heard the Lord say, can you just make it to the next tree? And I went on a jog because I was so stressed with everything going on. And so I was at a tree and he goes, I’m not asking you to make it home. I’m asking you to make it to the next tree and I’ll get you home. And so I was like, all right, I’ll jog to the next tree. So I jogged to the next tree and then I walked for a little bit. And then he said again, when you get to the next tree, can you start again and then make it to the next tree? And so it was kind of just that like, okay, I’m going to get to the next tree.

Bunny: (42:55)
Well, you just made me cry. Because that’s really all he asks is, do the next thing.

Danielle: (43:01)
Yeah. We as people want the big picture. But typically he’s a God of today and in the small steps.

Johanna: (43:11)
Wow. Yeah.

Bunny: (43:11)
Well, he is a God of today.

Johanna: (43:15)
Yeah, it’s amazing. I was getting goosebumps when you’re saying that it’s just, that’s powerful.

Danielle: (43:21)
Yeah. This is fresh stuff.

Johanna: (43:28)
Yeah. And I’m sorry, you know, we’re catching you on such a hard weekend. I’m glad you’re still able to talk with us because I think your story is so important to share. We would hate to miss out on it. But yeah. I hope things get better. I hope.

Danielle: (44:38)
Thanks. Yeah. I debated, I was like, am I in a place to do this today? And I didn’t get the sense that I needed to cancel. So I feel like I’m stepping into this pulpit at the moment. But you know I think sometimes we need to see the vulnerability and authenticity and the struggle. Bunny I don’t know if you felt this way, but publishing my book, I felt like I needed to honor both sides of the coin. You know, when you hear my story you could think, that’s like good for her. And it’s like, you know, there is a whole other side of this coin that is just covered in suffering. And I think we need authentic stories that show both. And so I’ve been challenging myself to say, I can’t just tell my story on these happy, good days about all the amazing things it’s like, I can’t curate the Instagram feed and just show you what I want you to see. I think we, from each other, we need to see both and we need to see, oh gosh, you’re having like the hardest week of your life you’ve had since, you know, 10 years ago. How are you getting through it? And, oh my gosh, this all turned out for good. No wonder you had hope because the God did come through for you. It’s not a week where I can say that God came through for me. And he’s good to his promises in this situation I’m facing now because I’m in it. But I’ll say I’m hoping in that because I’ve had so many other situations in my life and I’ve seen other stories where he does come through in a way only he can.

Bunny: (45:45)
Well, and I think the other, the other side of the coin too, that we have to share is that, while we survived a lot of people didn’t. You know, at the end of my book, I talk, you know, we lost people like Bell and like Rose and, you know, there is this ongoing story, which is every day at least, and that’s, you know, I wrote the book because I needed to find a way to share that story, but I also needed to find a way to honor the people who had, and I had a Rose in my life who was my cancer mentor here at home who didn’t survive. And, you know, I had to find a way to honor those people, but I also had to find a way to create some awareness, too, to make other people feel brave enough to tell their story or to say, I lost someone as well. Or I have these weird symptoms. I mean, my son read my book and he’s like, oh my gosh, I have to go get a colonoscopy because I’m having these weird symptoms, my own son. But, but you know, we have to tell stories and then they’re not all rosy and they’re not, you know, some weeks are, you know, some days are diamonds, some days are stones. Those are cliches because they’re true. And so it’s like you said, it’s a matter of getting through things. It’s not that’s why I thought I don’t want to do a recap where we put this in a neat little package and tie it in a bow because our stories are ongoing and everyone’s suffering is ongoing and everyone’s triumphs are ongoing. It’s, that’s how life works. Yeah. And I’m so grateful that you took an hour out of this week to share something that is, you know, it’s it’s for, if one person hears you, the two of us talking, the three of us talking because Johanna was my caregiver. So she suffered probably more, more than I did most days. Because I was so neurotic and so cranky. But if somebody hears our stories and, and gets that this isn’t the end of the story, this is just part of it. Isn’t that important?

Danielle: (48:17)
I think so. Yeah. Yeah. And for them to see us, you know, I know it’s important. How long we’ve been in survivorship. Is it, how long has it been for you?

Bunny: (48:30)
Eight Years. No. NED (no evidence of disease)

Danielle: (48:35)
Yeah. So stage IV, eight years, you know, I’m a teenage survivor. I was diagnosed 20 years ago and it’s like, I think that not only newly diagnosed need to see and hear this, but also those almost who feel lost in survivor-land of, they’re trying to find purpose and destiny. They’re still feeling all the fear and like the anxiety, and they’re trying to figure out, do I hang on to this cancer thing? Do I let it go? Is it part of me anymore? Is it not? What do I do with it? You know, we, you and I both wrote books, you’ve got this amazing podcast. Like, I’m still, we’re, we’re doing advocacy. It’s like, I think they need to see people like us. And I think there’s a lot of other people out there, like us who need to speak up and say like, I’m a survivor, and this is how I’m still coping with it. And it looks different than it does when you’re first diagnosed or the first few years out. But I mean, that’s, the goal is more survivors. So I feel like, I don’t know about you, but I feel called to help lead this group of people, trying to navigate this new world. Because it’s, it’s tricky.

Bunny: (49:48)
You do. And one of the things that I do is I serve on the board of a local cancer foundation and we just help people with the tiniest expenses to get to their treatment. You know Northern New Mexico has a lot of poverty. And so we, you know, we give them gas cards, grocery cards, and, and I think those, and those people will come into the office when I’m there sometimes. And they’ll say, I didn’t, you look so good. I didn’t know this is where we could end up. And I said, well, we’re all going to end up in different places with different stories, but just continue to do the thing in front of you and let us help you continue to do that.

Danielle: (50:31)
Yeah, absolutely.

Bunny: (50:33)
So I’m so grateful that you came on and we, and we want to hear from you again, we want to talk about more of your story, and I want to, you know, want to hear how this week and the next week in the next week went for you. Is that Fair?

Danielle: (50:50)
That’s fair. I would love to join you guys again. Thank you so much, so much. Thanks for having me.

Bunny: (50:59)
That’s all we’ve got today friends. I want to thank you for joining the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast with your host Bunny, Terry, that’s me and my producer and assistant Johanna Medina. We feel like we’re in the business of sharing the stories that save us, and we hope you’ll share as well by letting your friends and family know about the podcast follow and like us wherever you listen. And please take the time to leave a review, whether it’s a stellar comment or a suggestion, we are open to suggestions all the time. Also follow us on Instagram at lifesavinggratitudepod. You can also follow me personally at BunnyTerrySantaFe. You can sign up at my website at bunnyterry.com to receive weekly emails about how to become the ultimate gratitude nerd. Thanks so much for checking in!

Bunny: Hi everyone. This is Bunny with the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. Just in case you don’t know me, I am a stage four colon cancer survivor and the author of Lifesaving Gratitude, which is a book about how gratitude helped me kick cancer’s ass. 

Today we’re going to talk to a special guest about how marketing and marketers can use gratitude to create business and connections with clients and also for themselves to create a really positive way to do their job. But first, I just want to thank you for being here and ask that you download the podcast if you’d like. And certainly subscribe wherever you listen to other podcasts. But enough about me and enough about the podcast. 

I want to introduce you to my special guest, who’s also a friend. Craig Cunningham is currently a realtor with Keller Williams, Santa Fe. And that’s how I met him. However, this is a recent career for him and he was, and correct me if I mispronounce the word, but you were a hotelier. Is that the way to say that?

Craig: Yes. 

Bunny: Yes. He’s spent 30 years in corporate sales and marketing. He’s traveled extensively. I’m going to let him tell you all the places that he’s been to, but he is the founder and principal of Cunningham + Colleagues marketing consultants. He was in the past the VP of marketing and quality for Seaport Hotels and World Centers and the VP of marketing for Core North America. So welcome Craig Cunningham.

Craig: Thanks so much for having me on your podcast.

Bunny: I’m excited. I know you have some great tips for all of our listeners. When I think about these podcasts, I always think about the people that are going to want the information we’re offering. I mean, we’re here to help people and we’re here to figure out how gratitude can make everyone’s life not just easier and simpler, but also fuller. So why don’t you start, Greg? Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us how in the world you ended up in this completely different career? And yet the truth is we’re still just marketers first and realtors, second. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell our listeners.

Craig: Yeah. So, as you said, I’ve been in marketing and sales for more than 30 years. I actually started off with an advertising and PR agency and then had the good fortune to be hired by my hotel client at the time, Wyndham hotels. At that time it was a North American chain and it’s now international. 

But from then on, I was in the hotel business. It’s definitely a career where if you are not focused on client service and the whole concept of gratitude, you’re not going to be successful. I always thought of our job as just surprising and delighting our guests and making them feel like they chose the right hotel to be with. And so it was always about waking up every day and saying, “What can I do to make somebody’s day and to give them a great experience?” And, of course, to do this you have to be grateful because they opted to choose your hotel over the million other choices that they had. 

So when I retired from the hotel business two years ago, I was trying to figure out what else I wanted to do with my life. I started doing more volunteering. I volunteer with Kitchen Angels here in Santa Fe to deliver meals to people who are not able to leave their homes. But I also started thinking of whether I wanted to do something else from a professional standpoint and the real estate business seemed like a natural extension, because it’s all about client service. You have to figure out ways to make people feel like they’ve made the right choice in working with you. So it’s all about being grateful every day and figuring out what can I do to help them today. How else can I extend what I’m doing for them in a way that they will appreciate and know that I appreciate them. So that’s what it’s really all about, because of course they could work with a million other other people

Bunny: Right. And let’s talk for just a second. Don’t you think that marketing has changed over the 30 years that you’ve been doing this? I mean, it seems to me that when we were kids, which was back before the crust cooled, we were sort of marketed at. Just talk for a minute about how marketing is different now than it was 10 years ago or 30 years ago.

Craig: It’s funny, because I was going to say the exact same thing. Back in the day, you were running a TV ad or a radio spot or a print ad and it was passive in that you just presented the information, unless you were direct sales. But really with the advent of so much digital media, you are instantly able to forge a relationship with customers through social media, through Facebook, Instagram, where you’re having a dialogue with them from the very beginning. This allows you to work in a much more personal way and to be able to find out much more quickly how you can serve those people. 

So I think it’s changed completely. Before you just sort of put it out there into the ether and hope that something worked, and now you’re able to engage. And I’ve found that so much in real estate where I’m getting emails from folks and then it evolves from the email into a phone call or a zoom call or something like that instantly. I think that’s so much better for both people. Especially for somebody like me who wants to find ways to engage with people and to be of service to them, it makes it a lot easier and more rewarding.

Bunny: I just think about the ways that I connect with my clients. It’s as if you’re somehow conveying to those people that you’re grateful that they showed up.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, my whole thought is that it’s not a transaction, it’s a relationship. And that relationship can be multifaceted. Once you’ve sold them a house or sold their house, I like to think that we’ve formed a friendship and a bond and that relationship is going to continue. And honestly, I don’t even care if I ever get another piece of business for them. Now think of them as friends. I want to have them to my house for dinner or go have coffee or something like that. 

I think that kind of thing that makes a difference for people in wanting to work with me.  It’s coming from a position of wanting to be of service to them and wanting to make them happy and finding the right solution for them. I’m working with some first-time-buyers right now and I kind of feel like they’re my kids. It’s about, okay, how can I really help them with this? And they’re grateful for the counsel I’m able to give to them, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to work with them. So it’s very rewarding. I think if you approach business relationships in the same way as you would with your friends, it’s a win-win situation for everybody.

Bunny: Well, talking about those first-time home buyers, I mean, that’s one of my favorite deals. You never make the most money from those transactions, but I’m so grateful to be reminded that we are providing the American dream when we’re selling real estate. Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s my favorite experience.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, for somebody to have their first home and to be excited about how they’re going to decorate it and what they’re going to do. And with this young couple, seeing them excited when they see a house brings out all my empathy and makes me want to really go the extra mile for them to make sure they find the right house at the right price for them. And then I just never want to stop. So then it’s like, “Okay, now I’m going to find this person for you to do the plumbing, and I’m going to find this person, etc, and I’ll be with you with you  to help explain things.” I just want to really continue to be of service.

Bunny: I talk a lot, especially on my blog, about Judy Camp, who was one of my first real estate mentors. She was a great friend and Linda Gammons partner for a long time before she passed away. But Judy Camp always says, “If you come from contribution, you can’t help but be successful.”

Craig: Yeah. I mean, just as I was saying, you can’t think of it as a transaction. I think, coming from contribution, how can I help you? How can I make this a better experience? How can I make this work? Because, especially in a real estate transaction, it can be stressful. It’s the biggest financial transaction for the majority of us. So how do you take the burden and the pressure away from them and sort of guide them through the process? I just think the main thing is that it’s much more fun, whether you’re doing volunteer work or in business, to wake up every day and figure out how I could make it fun for somebody else. Because then it’s fun for you and it gets you excited and passionate about what you’re doing.

Bunny: Well, it sounds like our big “why’s” are really similar. I certainly don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but it sounds like your big “why” is just to make the life of the people you come in contact with better.

Craig: Yeah. Of course making money is nice, but there are lots of ways to make money. It’s more about whether you are getting energy from it. And I think you really get energy when you’re working with someone and trying to figure out how you can help them, how you can make their day better, how you can make the service that you’re providing better. And also just doing things that saying, “What about if I do X, Y, Z?” and they’re  like, “Oh, you’ll do that for me?” And I’m like, “Of course.”

I have another set of clients where the transaction was fairly complicated and we were looking at lots of properties. Coming from a corporate background, I love to do spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations—things like that. And so after about the third thing we had to do, they’re like, “Oh, how are we going to organize all these bids?”  And then one of the guys said to the other guy, “Well, Craig’s going to do a spreadsheet for us. He’s probably already got it done.” So it’s that kind of thing where you’re looking for ways to make their experience better.

Bunny: So this is always a funny question for me to ask, because I have such a loose gratitude practice other than just waking up in the morning and saying, “thank you, thank you, thank you,” and then writing things down, but do you have a practice that you follow that helps you both in your business and your personal life?

Craig: Well, since I came into real estate with Keller Williams, which focuses a lot on being servant leaders and helping people, I’ve gotten into the habit of writing three things I’m grateful for that day. It could be that it’s a beautiful day or a dog or my partner or the opportunity to help somebody or the coffee’s really good that day, but waking up and appreciating what you have in your life is a good way to get in a good mindset for the rest of it.

Bunny: Oh, absolutely. Something I always say is that we kind of rewire our brains. We do. We create new neural pathways every time we say that we’re grateful. So in terms of nuts and bolts, is there a way that you let your clients know? I mean, I find that there are a lot of young people, young entrepreneurs or people who are new to business, who forget how to tell their clients how they’re grateful for them, even if it’s a line in an email. Do you have something that you do specifically over and over?

Craig: I think for me, it’s maybe more in the actions. I think of “This is really going to be helpful if I do this or if I provide this information.” I think it’s always in my voice and the way that I write. I try to always communicate openly and in a friendly and conversational manner. But then I also think “It would be really cool and really helpful if I did X , Y , Z.” I created a whole PowerPoint just on the neighborhoods in Santa Fe, because if you’re out of town it gets confusing. And that came out of a client saying, “Well, I don’t really know the neighborhoods.” And I thought that this would be a great tool for them. So I created it and then I was able to use it with others. 

So I think for me, maybe it’s sort of on the fly. I used to say in the hotel hotel business, “How can I make this a wow experience?” Because the other way to think about it is that every relationship is with people. When you’re in a service business you’re really in the business of creating memories. You can create good memories or you can create bad memory and it’s much more fun to create good memories.

Bunny: And that just comes from a spirit of generosity. I mean, you obviously want this to be the best real estate experience they’ve ever had.

Craig: Right. Right. I’m very grateful for the people that have helped me along the way. I’ve been very fortunate in my career to always work for people who were concerned about my career development and my personal development and became dear friends. And I’ve had a couple of bosses that have hired me twice in two different jobs. So I’m always grateful for the things that other people have done for me. 

So then I want to pay it forward. When I came to Keller Williams and I was introduced to the team here, there was so much openness and willingness to share and help and support. It has been fantastic. What strikes me the most is how grateful I am for what other people have done for me. And how do I pay that back?

Bunny: I mean, this is not a podcast to plug Keller Williams. It’s really more to talk about mindset, but the place where I learned it was sitting in that training room and learning that my mindset was the secret sauce. I mean, that’s the success piece, right?

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s not just about production and everything. It’s about weight and having a sense of gratitude and contribution and a sense of abundance. And I don’t mean that in a monetary way. It could be abundance in your health or your friends or all of that kind of stuff. And I think back to you. Your experience with cancer was far worse than mine, but I did have prostate cancer about nine years ago. Everyone I worked with during that entire time when I was going for radiation every day for 10 weeks was so supportive. And then on the last day of radiation, there was this very important meeting, and everyone knew it was my last day.My whole team had a celebration for me on my last day. That was turning something that was obviously a challenging situation into something where I knew they really cared about me and supported me.

Bunny: Wow. I’m interested to hear how your mindset was in the middle of that? 

Craig: I’m just by nature, an optimistic person. So even though it was scary, I felt like I was in good hands from a medical standpoint and I just felt like I was gonna beat it. I had done the education that I needed to and then it was really about having a positive mindset. 

This is probably too much information, but I’ll say it anyway. You’re doing the radiation stripped down to your boxer shorts. And so I jokingly put this Facebook thing about the fact that I needed a new pair of boxer shorts for every day. And people started sending me underwear—different pairs of boxer shorts for every day. So while I was sitting there in the big machine, where you’re sort of in there and it’s buzzing and scanning and all that kind of stuff, it got to be kind of a joke with the techs:  “Oh , what’s he going to be wearing today?”

Bunny: I love that.

Craig: That was a way to keep my spirits up. And also during that process, I really learned how to be very focused. I was in a waiting room with people that were going through, frankly, worse things than prostate cancer. Don’t get me wrong, prostate cancer is pretty serious. It is. People die from it. But I was seeing so many other people that were having a much more challenging time than I was. And we became a family. We all bonded together during that process, because we were all waiting, sometimes for an hour. So it’s things like that. And also things like the kitchen angels service, where it helps reboot you every day for how grateful you should be in your own life and grateful for the opportunity to help other people.

Bunny: Right. There are tons of people who do get what a gift it is. People who don’t even have a specific gratitude practice, but at least an attitude every day that you’re going to figure out something. I just wrote a blog post on limiting beliefs and one of the things that I wanted to convey is that we get to choose every single moment how we view the world. And maybe for somebody out there who’s brand new in business or who’s starting a new business. I just read a statistic that said that the entrepreneur demographics are changing. And now like 48% of new entrepreneurs are over 50. So hooray for the old people! 

But I know that there are people out there right now who are thinking, “Well, I’m not any good at marketing. I’m not any good at that piece of it. I can sell stuff, but I’m not good at the marketing stuff.” I’ve got to tell you, I’m married to a guy who doesn’t believe in self promotion because he came from a generation when you played down your assets, instead of being grateful for them and talking about them. So I’d love to hear what you have to say to somebody who has that limiting belief that they can’t market. And they can’t promote themselves.

Craig: You know, we could all market ourselves, and we do it every day in our interactions.  Whether we think of it as marketing or not, we’re marketing ourselves all day long in how we react and treat other people. The thought I had as you were talking about your husband thinking self-promotion sounds like a dirty word is that it doesn’t have to be you talking  about “me, me, me” and “I did this million dollars in revenue.” This is kind of a turnoff in some ways, because you’re talking about yourself. But if you’re talking about how you can help somebody else and how you can provide a good experience for them with your information and knowledge, you’re not talking about yourself in that context. You’re talking about how you can be of service. I think that’s a much easier way for a lot of people from a generation where we weren’t really supposed to be talking about ourselves.

Bunny: Well, it was pre-social media. Our face wasn’t out there. We just weren’t trained to tell people, “Here’s the reason you should hire me instead of the other person.”

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, now we’re all our own brands on social media. But I think that rather than saying to somebody, “Here’s why you should hire me versus somebody else,” you should just talk about how you can be of service in what you do in an authentic way. Then people are more likely to want to work with you, because you’re radiating a sense of positivity and an interest in them. And they’re not thinking that you just look at them as a transaction and then you’re onto the next person.

Bunny: I frequently use with my marketing coaching clients the example of a dinner party. If you went into a dinner party (and this is for people who are just beginning in whatever business they’re in, especially if they’re self-employed), you wouldn’t simply walk in, take your coat off and say, “Hey, I’m selling something, come and talk to me.” Right? I mean, that’s what you don’t want to do with marketing. You want to start by building a relationship. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Craig: I think it goes all the way back to Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. People do like to talk about themselves. And so the first thing is you should be listening. That was one of the first things I learned in marketing client service. You need to ask questions and learn from your clients. Focus on what they need, as opposed to talking about yourself. You really want to establish a dialogue with them about their wants and needs and hopes and fears and everything else. Then you can talk about how you can address them. But nobody wants to go in and all of a sudden have you sit down and say, “Here’s my PowerPoint about me and what I’ve done.” It should be more of establishing, from the very beginning, a relationship of openness with folks. Then, after hearing from them, you can say “Well, here’s how I think I can you and here are some ideas that I have that I could share with you.” So I think a key thing is really listening from the very beginning.

Bunny: I even found that to be helpful when I used to first go on listing appointments. I was so nervous that I would sit down and I would immediately try to book an appointment. You know, if you’re not in real estate, a listing appointment is just like sitting down with a prospective customer. I would be so nervous in the beginning and really coming from a place of scarcity where I thought, “If I don’t get this listing, I’m not sure I can pay the rent next month.” And if you’re coming from a place of scarcity, you’re likely to self-sabotage. But that’s such good advice because things changed when I finally learned how to sit back and listen: “I’m here to help you. Tell me what it is that you need. Talk to me.” It’s so powerful to give a client time to talk to you. And I think people forget to do that, right?

Craig: Yeah. And I think sometimes we do it because we’re afraid. What I’ve learned so much over the years in business working with people is that people are terrified of silence, so they will immediately start talking. If there’s a second of silence, you jump in and start babbling. Lord knows I do it. But if you just let somebody talk and let it sort of sit there for a second and not just try to be filling in all the time. It drives me crazy when people are doing that. It’s much better if you can have the client talk and then ask some more questions and then be warm and reflective about it. Back to the Dale Carnegie thing, I think one of his first points was if you’re at the dinner party, ask people about themselves. Most people do like to talk about themselves. So ask them and don’t just start talking about yourself. 

Bunny: I think that even people who would say, “I don’t like to talk about myself,” really do want somebody to ask them and listen to them.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s not just asking them to go on and on. It’s more meaningful questions about, for example, why they decided to move here. Just those kinds of questions that get them thinking. Growing up in materialistic Dallas, the joke was that the questions at a party were like, “Where do you live? What do you do? What do you drive?” And so it’s not questions like that. It’s asking them more about their life experience,

Bunny: You just brought me to another completely different point, which is for any realtors out there listening: I think it’s really important to convey to your clients how grateful you are for where you live. I mean, if our lifestyle is such a selling point, don’t you think you should share that?

Craig: Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, living in Santa Fe there’s so much beauty. I’m looking out my window right now at the beautiful blue sky. When I leave my house in the morning and I see the mountains, and then when I’m coming home at night and the sun is setting over the mountains and I see all the different colors and everything, it’s just breathtaking. It’s great to live in such a great and wonderful environment and in a place that is very spiritual, going back with the native Americans—respect for the earth and nature and all of those things—I think it does help center us more than a lot of other places.

Bunny: How do you convey that to your clients? I know you’re doing something really cool online that’s different from some other realtors.

Craig: Well, I’m not just posting on my Facebook page,” Hey, I just sold this house or just sold that house.” Well, that’s great. But I’m more talking about new experiences in Santa Fe: new restaurants, or a new place to go hiking, or something exciting that’s happening at one of the museums or things like that—enthusiastically talking about the experience of living in Santa Fe. And if down the road, by the way, you’re looking at this stuff and you decide you want to buy a house here, I would love to help you. But it’s more about conveying the reason why we all want to live here

Bunny: And tell us about your blog, because I think it’s amazing.

Craig: So I created this blog, which is called Santa Fe Scenes. It’s that same kind of thing where it’s just talking about having fun in Santa Fe. One of the things was, you know, we’ve got the old Santa Fe trail and we’ve got the old Pincus trail, but did you know that we had a Margarita trail and a Chocolate trail? Stuff like that. Just being whimsical about it and talking about some of the things are unique about the city and sharing my own passion for Santa Fe. I was very fortunate to be able to do a lot of international travel for my job. I was grateful for the opportunity that I was given to see places that I wouldn’t have seen otherwise from Bogota to Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro and Beijing and places like that. So I’ve always been enthusiastic about travel and now living in such a beautiful place like Santa Fe, I want to share that enthusiasm with people.

Bunny: And you’re getting some good feedback on that I bet, right?

Craig: Yes, I am. I’m getting good feedback on it. It’s been a wonderful thing to reconnect with friends who are saying, “Good for you, you old dog! You’re back out there trying something new.” Because whenever someone says, “Oh, you’re a new realtor,” I say, “Well, I’m an old new realtor. I’m 61 and I’m starting this for the first time.” But it’s been great from that perspective and the support that you get from your friends. Then people are saying, “Oh, well, I know somebody who might be interested in sending you that information.” I think that’s one of the positive things that social media has done where we’ve been able to reconnect with so many people that we might have completely lost touch with.

Bunny: Oh yeah. I did a post not very long ago about how grateful I was, and it was in the middle of all the fear over Facebook and Twitter. And I just said that it’s such a great platform for reconnecting with cousins that I haven’t seen since I was six. I mean, I just turned 60. I’m an old dog and this is a new trick for me, but I think that if you use it the right way, it’s a real gift. I also think there are so many realtors, like you said, who just post either pictures of houses that they have listed or their accomplishments. And I think they’re really missing an opportunity.

Craig: Yeah. Because then you’re just talking at someone. You’re not sharing information and excitement about things with them. People don’t want to look at that stuff. They want to look at things like the fact that there are like six great chocolate tiers in Santa Fe. And then the next time I’m in town, I want to go to each one of them. Or discovering an amazing new hiking trail or a beautiful image of a shop window or a piece of art or something like that. 

Bunny: Yeah, it’s so much better than “I just listed this house at 123 main street. Don’t you wish you owned it?” Exactly.

Craig: Exactly. I think more people would react to it. I’d really like to have some of that green chili chocolate over at The Chocolate Smith or whatever. It’s much more interesting than a picture of a kitchen that has granite countertops. Oh my goodness.

Bunny: And, you know, Craig, I found that people will call me and they’ll say, “Well, I’ve been following you on Facebook for two years. And I feel like you’re my best friend. I think you’d be the right person to show me around and help me find a house.” And I bet that’s happening to you too.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s funny, you mentioned that. One of the people I’ve been mentoring told me a story about how she posted a lovely picture of herself and then somebody called her and said, “I feel like I already know you because you just look like a nice person and I feel like I can trust you.” I think also that it’s our eyes and our smile and everything that conveys so much of what you’re talking about. If you have a spirit of gratitude and service and a sense of abundance, not scarcity, it shows in your face, your eyes, your smile, and your whole persona.

Bunny: Well, we’re going to have to wrap up here in a minute, but I would love to hear if you have just three great tips that you would give to somebody who feels kind of stuck in their marketing. It could be what you’ve learned in 30 years or in the last three days, whatever it is.

Craig: I think one is changing your question from “How do I market myself?” to “What can I do for this client?” or “What can I do that’s going to excite the people? How can I make them feel appreciated and valued?” And this can work in cases where you’re actually working one-on-one with a client or cases where you’re trying to figure out how to promote what you’re doing. How do I find ways to surprise and delight people? So I like to do that with social media buys, where you come up with quirky, little things to talk about that are authentically Santa Fe or a funny picture of my dog or something like that. You want to put a smile on people’s faces. And social media gives us so many opportunities to be able to do that in ways that we couldn’t before. So the main thing at the end of it is to put your client first, and then I think everything else will come from there.

Bunny: You’re absolutely right. I think as long as your passion is helping people, then success is just a natural by-product of that.

Craig: Exactly. People feel that energy and then they want to tell their friends about you.

Bunny: What I’ve found is that people want to be able to trust somebody, especially in this business where they’re making possibly the biggest purchase of their life.

Craig: Right? I’m thinking back to these younger clients. We were touring houses, and they were interested in one particular house and I was like, “No, I’m not going to let you buy this. This is not the right move.” And I think all of a sudden they’re like, “Wow, he really cares. He’s not just thinking ‘Tick tock, tick tock. We’ve seen three houses.’” This is not House Hunters International where there are the three properties and you have to buy one. So again, it’s not a transaction. It’s a journey. It’s a relationship.

Bunny: I think that’s the most important tip for somebody to take away. Whether you’re selling widgets or earrings or house cars or houses, this is not a transaction. It’s a relationship. We want people to trust you and come back over and over. I don’t know how you can love your job if you’re not doing it the way we’re doing it.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. And have fun with it. We get to meet interesting people all day long. We get to see things. We get to use our own creativity to express ourselves. I know there are people that are in jobs that don’t have that. But I also read things about  the janitor in an elementary school who takes real pride in what they do, and they are going to do the best job that they possibly can. So I think in almost everything, you can come at it with a mindset of “How can I make this a great experience for me and for others?”

Bunny: That’s great stuff. Tell us where people can find you and where they can find your blog.

Craig: Well, probably the most fun thing I’m doing is the Santa Fe Scenes blog. 

Bunny: Okay. And we’ll share that on the information page for the podcast. And then, of course, if people want to buy a house from you, they can find you through there?

Craig: Yeah. All my information is on there. So one stop shop.

Bunny: Craig, I’m so excited that you were here. This was fun. I think we could do it again.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Bunny: Because I think this is the place where people get stuck. People who are self-employed get stuck in this part. And so I think there’s a lot of stuff that we can talk about.  But I’m of course really grateful that you agreed to talk with us.

Craig: Oh, thanks. It’s been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. 

Bunny: And to everybody else, thanks for being here. This is once again, the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry. You are welcome to go to my website if you’d like to learn more about me and about buying my book, which is all about gratitude and how gratitude helped me kick stage four cancer’s ass. And we’d love to have you follow us and subscribe on spot Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks so much, Craig.

Craig: Thank you. Next time.