51. Life-Changing Stories: David Richman

Bunny: 0:11

Welcome everyone. Our guest today is David Richmond. And I just have to say right up front that , it’s a gift to get to do this podcast because I get to meet people like David. David has written several books and it seems to me that we’re gonna wanna get him back to talk about the others, but the book that I’m most interested in is the book’s cycle of lives. Did I get that right , David? Yes , you did . So wrote a book as well. I like, I like for you to just tell your own story . So tell us how this book came to be. Tell us about you and the stories.

David: 0:52

Well , how the book came to be was I was just touched by something I saw kinda over and over and , what I saw over and over was people who were going through cancer. Either patient survivor loved one, you know, doctors, those type of stuff. I was opened up to that world and my sister got cancer. She had terminal brain cancer and died a few years in, but I noticed that , that, that people were really good Bunny about navigating the tasks around their cancer. How do I find the best doctor? How do I get time off of work? How do I eat better? You know, how do I find the right you know, chemo center and how do I get my kids watched and blah, blah , you know, you name it. But when it came to the emotional side, like how do we feel about it? How do people process what’s going on in relation to the other traumas they had, you know, what allows ’em to accept, help or connect with people? I felt like that area there seemed to have it was shrouded in mystery people weren’t real good at navigating the emotional facet of it. Now you take smart people like you, who delve into the journey and write it down and, you know, like reflect on it and grow from it. But, but a lot of people don’t do that. And we also don’t know how to communicate with people that are going through trauma or have been through trauma. And so that’s, that was the Genesis of the idea was if I could tell really compelling, inspiring, truthful, super deep stories about people , real people, you know, no names change to protect the innocent. You know, could we learn from that and maybe develop some tools so that we could start hard conversations with people that are going through or have gone through difficult times that , that we want to connect with? You know, so that was long answer, but that’s the Genesis of it.

Bunny: 3:07

Well, I love the idea of you know, we say all the time on this podcast that I think stories save us. And , what I’ve found just with having written my own book about cancer and about navigating all that hard stuff is that people now come to me and say, I met with a book group the other day. And they said, wow, I learned so much because I talked so much about how not to talk to somebody who has cancer and how, you know, what not to say. But I do think that we, that you’re right, we tend to worry so much about the, the physical piece of it. Like you say, I , you know how can I help you? You know, can I come over and clean your house? Can I, drop by a meal, but we tend to shy away from, from the difficult, really difficult emotional piece of it. And , um, and I would say on this podcast, we’re working pretty hard at talking about those things, but it still is man, especially for caregivers and for siblings, like you were, that’s a , that’s a hard piece to understand. So I have to applaud that you went out of your way, you and, and David, you didn’t just talk to these people about your stories. You rode 5,000 miles to meet with all of them . <laugh> I think we ought to tell folks that piece of the story <laugh>

David: 4:39

Right. Well, so, so you said it right, we’re , we’re connected by story and we’re moved by story. And I feel like we’re connected by human emotions. We all have the same emotion . We don’t have the same emotional responses to things, but we all have the same, you know, basket of emotions that we can, that , that we we have. And , uh, and we’re connected by stories. And so I thought to myself, if I’m gonna get super deep with people, and I’m gonna kind of get this wheel of emotion, wheel of age , types of cancer, severity of cancer, length of time, they’re dealing with it. The perspective of caregiver professional , uh , loved one survivor friend, you name it, I’m filling in one of the little , sections in a wheel, right. I’m hitting kind of every perspective possible. And then I thought, oh , there’s a wheel. Okay, well, that’s like a cycle of lives , a wheel of emotion. And I’m thinking, oh , well maybe , uh , wheels are on a bike. And maybe if I could go on a bike. Right . Okay. So, you know, those old tiny movies where , uh, the , the plane goes from like Africa to China and in between, and everywhere it stops, there’s this red line that follows the right , the , the plane , right . I thought, oh , why don’t I be the line? Why don’t I be the thread that ties these stories together? So after I met everyone, I said, or after I talked to everyone for a couple years on the phone, I said, well, the best way to connect these stories is just to connect them. So I’m gonna get on my bike. In fact, I made it through Santa Fay where , where one of the well , uh , one of the people was, and, she’s moved to Seattle since, but , I just, zig zagged my way across the country. And then up to New York on a solo bike ride to meet them all for the , for the first time I’d known a couple of them , but most of them , most of the people I made the book, I didn’t know. And I hadn’t met them in person. So I figured what better way to kind of tie the stories together than to get on my bike and connect them.

Bunny: 6:45

How long did that take

David: 6:48

<laugh> I could have used for it to take a little bit longer. I did it quick. I did , 4,700 miles and 45 days . So, yeah, I did. That’s like 120 miles a day.

Bunny: 7:04

Wow. Well, I just, you know, at the beginning of the book, you’re down around Arizona and I just thought, oh, David, my goodness. I mean, it felt to me like a tribute to your sister, also a real tribute to all of the people that you wrote about , I don’t know. It just gave me a chill when you were talking about it, about connecting them, because it is, I mean, this is , being, having cancer is being part of a club that nobody really wants to be part of. And yet , boy, there’s strength in it as well. There’s strength in , when you read my book, you’ll see that what where I really found my strength was when I finally met a room full of people who had all had colon cancers . So it’s, so there is strength in stories, but I, I want you to tell , you talk about , I’m gonna , I hope I say this correctly, pledge’s wheel of emotion, and you just were talking about filling that in, but can you explain to us what that wheel of emotion is?

David: 8:18

Sure. So this wheel of emotion says that there’s basically eight core human emotions, right? And that we all have the same emotional responses to certain stimuli based on , very human , instincts, such as survival or fear you know, those type of things. And, and I really, that really stuck with me because, you know, I’m thinking to myself, if any, one of us fell off a boat and fell underneath a boat and couldn’t get, couldn’t find our way to the edge of the water. There’s not a single person that wouldn’t feel fear. Okay. If we are stuck in a cave and we hear the roar of a bear, there is not a single one of us that would go around a dark corner without apprehension without, you know, without fear and nervousness. Okay . There’s certain things it’s almost impossible to understand watching a baby be born and that, and that scream , that comes from that baby. It’s almost impossible not to be moved emotionally with a sense overwhelming sense of joy, right? So there, there are these, these certain basic human emotions that we all have, but then I, I , I, you know, I , I remember someone that, that I worked with and, and she was a real tough, tough woman. And she got colon cancer, like you stage four. And , we had these really, really deep talks. And I was kind of shocked at how I didn’t expect that her reactions on an emotional level were gonna be what they were, and there was like, you, there was gratitude, there was optimism. There was some amount of fear, but really was more acceptance than, than anything else. And it was like, it was like a challenge. I’m like, what the heck? Like , I couldn’t even believe it. And then when I get into these stories, Bunny, I’m hearing about just to , you know, cuz I don’t know the people I’m cold calling for them. I’m , I’m asking friends, I’m calling hospitals and, and cancer centers. Who do you know? And who’s got an interesting story and I hear this one story of this woman who’s who, who just found out that she had , uh , terminal , uh , what was likely terminal brain cancer, but had a huge tumor that needed to be re removed immediately. And the person that told me the story said, yes , she started , welling up with tears of joy on hearing that. And I’m like, what? How’s that even possible? And then I, I said , you know what? We just don’t know what people have gone through or what they’re going through. So how are we supposed to understand , what emotional responses they’re supposed to have if we don’t know what they’re going through? And I , I love this idea that we have the same emotions, right? Maybe not the same emotional response, it’s just to everything, but we have the same emotion. And if we’re gonna connect in an authentic, truthful way with people , we have to meet them at an emotional level. And in order to meet them at an emotional level, we have to be able to have a deep understanding or learn what they’ve gone through, what they’re going through. I don’t think anybody bunny could know how you feel about something just by assuming, because they know a little bit about you, how you’re gonna feel about something. Right. And so if we don’t have that sense of comfort and understanding and , and safety to, to really talk to each other, we don’t, we don’t, we don’t have the hard conversations we drop off a casserole or we say, oh my gosh, how can I help? And we hope they really don’t ask us for help because <laugh> , you know, I mean, there’s, there’s a lot going on there, but once you that deep, authentic connection with people where they understand you and you understand them at a deep, emotional level where we’re all the same, that’s where we can, where we can get deep, where we can have the hard conversations where it’s safe to be ourselves and, and, and to be there and to , and to be vulnerable. And that that’s where the real comes from. I think

Bunny: 12:35

I, I, I will say just as a caveat, I do think you have to do some of the other stuff first. <laugh> I , I mean, I think, you know, if I , I mean, or , or, you know, you have to do some of the, you know, showing up with the soup and, and , um, I , I don’t know, can answer is so weird because people tend , there are some people David who kind of wanna, co-op your experience. Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm . Um , who, who wanna sort of, you know, let me get in the middle of this and make this mine as well. And, and you’re sort of like, no , just drop off the soup and give me some time to deal. But what , what I, what , but it feels like you did with these stories, is that you, I mean, if I know somebody who’s getting diagnosed or going through something hard, I would say, read these stories and then let me know what resonates with you so I can help you, whatever. Um , because you’ve, you did that. I mean, you mm-hmm , <affirmative> you talk to people that , you know, somebody who lost her dad when she was a child mm-hmm <affirmative> , um , somebody who lost this , uh , uh , the love of their life when she was only 40. I mean, your sister was not very old. Was she?

David: 13:48

How no . She was like maybe 41 or 42 when she passed. So ,

Bunny: 13:52

So nuts, so nuts. But, but , but I , I also really love the layout. I , I want our listeners to know that this is a really easy book to read. I love the layout where you a , as you’re introducing the people that you interviewed and yourself, you’re really, you’re really transparent about your own experience and your own emotional , uh, difficulty, not just in losing your sister, but in even deciding to do this book. So you’re really vulnerable and really transparent, but you do this almost a clinical, like most, let me, I wrote it down. You, you say, what’s your strongest positive emotion and what was your strongest negative emotion? I thought it’s so interesting that, I mean, you said yours was gratitude and your , your strongest positive emotion was gratitude and your strongest negative was sorrow. But for everybody there was , there were surprising emotions ,

David: 14:52

Um , unbelievably surprising emotions. And, and you , you know, I , I , I often get asked bunny , like, what did I, what did I learn about, you know, myself or about, about life from doing this? And, and the , the thing that I learned is , and , and I’ve look , uh , I’ve been through a lot, like we all have, if , if you’re lucky enough to be, you know, over 40, you’ve learned a lot. You’ve been through a lot. Okay. That’s just the way it is . Mm-hmm <affirmative> , you don’t know everything. I , I certainly don’t know everything, but, but you , but you learn a lot and you see a lot, and it’s easy to come to a about how somebody feels about something that’s easy to do. What’s hard to do is to say, I don’t know anything about this person. Maybe there’s things that they’re hiding, that they don’t feel comfortable ever having let anybody know about. And maybe those things have a profound effect on them. And if I do want to make a deep connection with them, maybe I gotta come in with a lot less assumption. And that goes to those ammo , emotional responses. How in the wo , like you mentioned, Jen, right? I lo what I love about her story, what I learned about life from her talking to her, and this is a , this is a girl who, who lost her dad when she was six years old. And, and she grows up to be a nurse. And part , part of the reason that she grow up to be a nurse is because her dad, when he was at home, hospice would be like, Hey, nurse, Jen , can you put a straw in my seven up or something? She was like, oh man, I’m nurse, Jen. And at this whole thing, and , um, the day that she was gonna do her , her rounds at the oncology , uh , center, she totally dreaded it. She called her mom. She’s like, I don’t think I have the strength to do this. I don’t know how I’m gonna be able to do this with everything we’ve gone through. And of course, it’s the pediatric oncology ward that she’s gotta , gotta go to, which is even , uh , and prior to this, I’m thinking to myself, if you ask me, how could anybody who’s gone through what she’s gone through, even if you just gimme the highlights, how could anybody go work in a pediatric oncology ward? And a , and she told me the story. And she told me that that day, when she was done, she called up her mom, you know, tears in her eyes going, how could I not do that for the rest of my life? Like, how could I not? Right. And right . And I’m thinking, how many times have I said to myself who in the world could do that kind of stuff? Like, cuz I couldn’t right, thank God. There are people in the world that can do that. But how in the world can anybody do ? And then I’m gonna roll my eyes. If you tell me that she came a nurse because of something that she went through as a child and that that’s the person that ends up being a pediatric oncology nurse. I just wouldn’t understand it. I wouldn’t get it. But when you hear it and you live it and you feel the emotional and you understand the gratitude that she feels for knowing that her dad is by her side, you know, however he is in whatever form that, that energy pushes , uh , her forward. And that she’s so grateful that the community had stepped up when her father had passed and how her mom was so strong during her life. And was a , was the bedrock of you know , of her friendships with her friend . And you, you , you realize that this person, she’s not just some woman who works in the pediatric oncology unit. I mean, this is somebody who has a layers and layers and layers and layers of these beautiful, rough, harsh, human, you know, joyous memories and emotion and you go, oh, that’s why she does what she does. That’s how she’s able to do it. Cuz I couldn’t. Right. But she can. And it’s like, wow. So I can’t assume right. If , if , I mean, I can’t know what’s going on in her head if I, if I, if I , so I wanted to bring these stories so that we could get a little bit deeper understanding of, of who people are and why they do the things they do or don’t do the things they do or whatever. And that’s that , that was the whole goal. I know there’s a little rambling and I apologize for that bunny , but oh

Bunny: 18:57

No, no I, I, but you did. I, I am a , I am now a really fierce advocate for people who have cancer and I I’m now the board chair of a local foundation and we do the physical things. Like we help people get people in at the poverty level, get to treatment, you know, gas cards and grocery cards and free places to stay when they’re here. And , and we just did a huge, huge event. And somebody said to, and it was huge and it was months and months and months of work. And somebody said that night I was exhausted. And somebody said, how can you do this? And my husband who lost his partner before me to stage four colon cancer said, how could she not do it? So when you said that it made me wanna cry because I thought, I, I think that, that this kind of an experience opens us up so much emotionally that we can’t help, but try to figure out how to make life a little easier for somebody else who’s in that same place. And that, and you did it in a really big way by gathering all these stories. But I wanna , um, uh , they’re all really unique, but maybe if you could, I know we have a little bit of time for you to maybe give us like three or four vignettes. Like, you know, Terry who, who appeared not to have a lot of strong emotional support from her family and who went through some really tough times said, said , um, that, that that’s that , um , analogy she gave where she said, it’s like, you’ve got you’re in a raft in the center of the ocean and all you can do is keep paddling. I thought, man , I , I wanna find her and give her a hug and tell her, yeah, keep moving, keep going forward. I ,

David: 20:57

Yeah, she

Bunny: 20:58

Talk to me about the people you spoke to.

David: 21:00

So te Terry was tough because look , uh , uh, here’s the deal, right? When you’re writing your own story, it’s very, very different than when you’re writing. So if, if I, if , if you were to entrust me to write your story, I better get it right. Especially if you are trying to do it for an altruistic goal, which, which I think we had, which was to just, just inform people just to just better equip them to underst a little bit more behind what’s the curtain. Right. And , and , and just so they can help, maybe they can take a little bit from Bunny’s story and apply it to their own life and maybe, you know, have a better experience or better experiences with people that they want to connect with. So, so to have this responsibility of telling the story in an accurate way was tough because sometimes what people go through, you can’t wrap words in it so easily. And sometimes it’s a little tragic. Sometimes it’s almost even pathetic. Sometimes it’s like, it’s dirty and ugly and you just don’t want any part of it. And it’s like, it’s so easy to not pay attention, but, but man boy, oh boy, did I talk to people? And with Terry , there’s two things. We were laughing. But one of the very first times I talked to her were laughing about it. Cuz we were talking about fuzzy math . We named her, we named her story, something about fuzzy math . And that’s because she goes, I’ll tell you the worst thing about cancer. And I go, what? And she was the worst thing about cancers many times as I’ve had it. As many times I’ve talked to doctors and everything I’ve been through is everybody wants to gimme odds. She goes, I’m so tired of 10% of this and 30% of that. And 90% chance of this and 60% chance of that. And if we do this, then this and this, she goes, I’m tired of it. How about this? How about we decide yes or no, 50 50 everything is , is 50 50. I’m either gonna know or I’m not gonna know I’m either gonna have it or I’m not. I’m either gonna the , the , the , the treatment’s gonna work or it’s not stop giving me this, this little odd stuff. Cuz she goes my own personal development. It I’m either gonna get there or I’m not right. I’m either gonna be happy or I’m not, I’m either gonna let people in, or I’m not, I’m either gonna be bitter or I’m not like, like we kind of put this whole thing together is the fuzzy math about it is everything is choice. Everything’s a two sides of a coin. It’s a , it is a flip. And so when, when we go through her story and we talk about everything that she’s been through and I say, Terry , like how in the world do you deal with this stuff? And she’s like, you know what, look everybody that’s been by my side has abandoned me in my, in my support group. Every everybody, but , but me died. She’s like, why am I here? She goes, I have got to stay paddling on that life wrap because I gotta see the sun come up. Cause one day I’m gonna figure it out. Right. And it’s this fuzzy math thing. Like she’s, she already knows the one side of the coin. She’s just getting to the other side of the coin. Like what does it all mean? And I love that because it’s so optimistic and it’s so inspirational because you know what, sometimes we think we know everything and you gotta , especially somebody like her has to give up to the fact that she’s not in control of anything. And yet she can be like optimistic that something is gonna be shown to her. And I love this idea of fuzzy math . It’s like, it’s either yes or no, it’s either gonna show itself or it’s not. It’s just so much easier odds to wrap your brain around and, and , and anyway, that’s, that’s Terry’s story.

Bunny: 24:34

And that, that one was amazing. Um, were , was it, were the, did you find that there was a pattern? I mean, you, I mean you talked to 15, really different people, people with different stages of cancer, people who maybe were survivors or caregivers as opposed to the patient , um, was there some thread throughout that was similar with everyone?

David: 25:02

Yes. And let me, let me , um, somewhat similar and , and let , and let me asterisk that by saying at first I , I talked to way more than 15 people. The , the problem is either I didn’t have the skill to connect with them in a really deep, authentic level, or they weren’t in a place in their life where they could disclose everything that you need to disclose. Cause what I didn’t want to do is I didn’t want to shock value, Hey, look at this story and how much it’s gonna make you cry or look how happy it’s gonna make you and let’s move on. Right ? I wanted to tell real, authentic, deep, multifaceted stories about people. And when you do that, it’s a hard thing. I mean, you know, you did, you did around your own story. It’s hard, it’s hard to do . And some people aren’t equipped to do it. So I did, I talked more than 15, but the 15 that ended up making the book, there were a few similar threads in the stories. But I think the , probably the most similar thread is that of isolation , uh, either feeling isolated or self isolating , uh , and all , all of it for , for understandable reasons or maybe being abandoned , um , you know , which is a form of isolation. That seemed to be one of the things that, that touched me the most is everybody had a story , uh , or multiple stories along their experience where they were like, yeah , I felt alone. Or, or I was left. I was, I was left out in the cold or something and it’s not. And , and so oftentimes not even on purpose and , and sometimes they did it to themselves, but it was a common theme. And I thought, geez . I mean, if we all are connected and maybe we don’t, we can’t connect with everyone bunny , but the people that we can connect with isn’t that the one thing we want to do is to make them not feel isolated and to make them not feel abandoned. Right. That’s the one thing.

Bunny: 27:02

Oh, abso absolutely. I , um, yeah, I think that I , I, I remember real clearly, David, my story was something, you know, I wrote a thousand words a day, EV every day , every day of my , you know, unless I just couldn’t hold my head up or I just had surgery or something, but , um, and I had all these words and I kept trying , uh , I , I remember the , the , the moment when I realized that even in the middle of all that, and in the middle of I , and I had this vast network of support and family people, but in the middle of it, I remember lying in the tube, getting a other CT scan at the early, early in my diagnosis. And it was like the fourth one I’d had in a month. It was like, why do they keep doing this? And I remember lying there and tears running to , uh , running, you know, I was laying on my back and I was crying and my ears were filling up with tears. And I thought, I I’m really all by myself here. I, you know, I didn’t feel that way often, but at that moment, I thought, this is a story about how scary and frightening and alone parts of this are. Um, and, and, and I was so different from a lot of the people that you wrote about, because I did have a really, really deep support network, but still it’s, it’s isolating you. You said something , um, you said a few , I mean, you said a lot that was really eloquent, but , um, you said cancer hits most people like a shovel in the face. I thought that was such a, a , uh , because it’s so true. It’s so, you know, we’re going along in our life and we’re, you know, I really thought I had the world by the tail . I, I just, I was finally living where I wanted to live and I lost all this weight. I felt like I was in really great shape except for being out of , out of breath and tired all the time. Um, and I was dying and it is like getting hit in the face with a shovel . And you’re like, what,

David: 29:11

What , you

Bunny: 29:11

Know, where I , it is isolated. <laugh> ,

David: 29:14

You know, where I came over with that analogy, I was talking to you, haven’t got to Dr. Meyer’s story yet. I was talking to Dr. Meyer . She’s a 40 year oncologist at NYU at the utter , uh , cancer Institute at NYU. And her story is kind of fascinating because it’s not just the story about , uh , a woman who , uh , was abandoned as a little girl. Uh , the , the , uh, the dad CA never came home one day and has never been heard from, again, like just all of a sudden there one day gone , gone the next and the kind of mom where you could never ask a question or talk about it, then she’s super crazy smart. She goes to a college at a very early age. Um, and she , uh, wishes her way through medical school. And of course, nobody will give her , uh , patience because she’s a curly haired woman. Why, why would , why would , why would I give you my clients? You’re , you’re nobody , nobody wants to see a doctor with , uh , curly hair. And it’s like, she had to , she had to go through like this, this ridiculous amount of obstacles to get to where she was going to. And , um, and so I asked her one time, I go , so why did you become an oncologist? And she goes, well , lemme tell you a secret. I go, what? She goes, most oncologists, we become oncologists because we hope that it’ll give us good karma. So we don’t get cancer ourselves. And I went, oh my God, you’re kidding me. Right? She goes, no. I mean, you know, like when you’re a surgeon, you got gall humor and stuff, but there’s nothing funny about cancer. She goes, there’s nothing funny about it. She goes, you know, even on a battlefield, you hear about, you know, battle humor. She goes, there’s nothing funny in the cancer . It’s the most devastating thing in the world. And I think most oncologists become oncologist because we don’t wanna get cancer ourselves. And I thought, man, it is just like getting hit in the face with a shovel, isn’t it. And it’s just, everybody has that same fear. And that fear is just debilitating. And that’s why, you know, this , uh , a working , uh , the way that you do and support groups and, and wellness of type of stuff. But, but the fear of cancer is just as valid as somebody who had, you know, a stage one , uh , tumor removed, which is just as dramatic as somebody who is getting ready to die. I mean, there , there, isn’t a value that you could place on somebody’s true and responses and what they’re going through. You can’t judge it. It’s not worse or better. It’s, it’s just, it’s unexplainable. Just what can , what can we learn from it so that we can connect with people if even just for a moment. And, and that’s, that’s what compelled me to do this. And that’s what compels to continue to talk about it and want , want to connect with people like you.

Bunny: 32:08

Well, and I think that you, you really, you , in a nutshell, when you said that cancer is the queen of emotional chaos , um, I , I it’s, and I think if people can understand that, that, and I, I wrote about that it’s that I couldn’t figure it out. You know, like I , I would feel this, you know, relief that I was going to my first chemo treatment finally. I mean, I didn’t have insurance when I was diagnosed. So I had to wait like,

David: 32:35

Oh my goodness, four

Bunny: 32:36

Weeks to get my port. And I had , you know, I had to wait for coverage and, and it was dire. I mean, I almost had an obstruction, but, and I was bleeding out. I , you know, I had this perforated colon, but , um, so I felt relief and dread and fear and anticipation. And it wa there it , and I , um, I , I, when you, when I read that the queen of emotional chaos, that’s been my experience with other people is that there’s sort of this euphoria, and then there’s this horrible depression. And they, they sometimes hit in the same day. You start thinking, maybe I’m, maybe I’ve got something, you know, maybe I’m bipolar. Maybe I have some sort of a , uh , chemical imbalance. And you’re like, well, yeah, you do, you have cancer and you’re on chemo and you’re, yeah, you have all of that, but you really , um , convey that very well. Um ,

David: 33:33

Well , thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. It’s and , and none of this stuff that I come to it knowing, right. This is all stuff that I learned. I just want , I just wanted to know. And you know, I , I remember bunny when I , and I think I , I , I don’t , I don’t know if you , if you read this, but it’s a story that I think everybody can relate to is I , I get a call from my sister. Okay. And she’s in the middle of, of going through you, you know what , whatever she’s going through with the term brain cancer. And I get this call from her and I pick up , pick up the phone. I see it’s her. And I’m like, Hey, June, how’s it going? And then in the split second, before she answers, I just do this mental boxing match with myself. Like you’re such an idiot. How could you ask her how she’s doing? She’s dying of cancer. You’re having eight day . You’re gonna see your kids live. She’s not gonna see her kids live. You’re such an idiot. How could you ask such a stupid question? What do you mean? How is she doing? And I’m, and I’m like, I beat myself up for that split second and rewind. I go, Hey , June , how’s it going? She goes, oh , I’m fine. How are you? Anyway, the reason I called was da , da , da , da . And I’m just like , uh , you right? And it’s like, I , I wanna not be such an idiot when I’m talking to people or feel like an idiot when I’m talking to people and you wanna know something, what I learned from this thing, I don’t have to feel bad about asking her how she’s feeling. Cause I really did wanna know, like, how you doing? Like, don’t ask a question. You wanna know the answer to, I really did want to know it. Wasn’t the wrong question. If she didn’t want to tell me she would’ve said, I don’t wanna tell you I’m feeling anyway, blah, blah, blah . But the point is is that I didn’t go into any of this knowing the answers to any questions. I just, I just learned, and from talking to people like you, who had the real life experience and those emotional ups and downs and the real, the , the real , uh , insight into how we might better connect with people, right? Like, I, I, I know absolutely positively not to say, I’m sorry, when I hear bad news about somebody anymore, because I heard too many times don’t tell me, you’re sorry. It’s not your fault. I don’t wanna hear. You’re sorry. And , and , and I go wows, that’s smart. And then I also heard over and over and over. Don’t use the word at least ever around me ever again. Don’t tell me at least, oh, you , oh , you lost a leg to cancer. Well, at least you’re alive, right? At least you have your health, right? Like , you know, at least you can get up every day . No , don’t, don’t at least me because , uh , it was wonderful. You read Bobby’s story and, and Bobby , you know , uh , said he had to literally get out of town because he was so tired of people looking at him with puppy, dog eyes and having the sympathy form . Cuz he and Brandy, his wife that passed away had literally delved into every tiny little crevice of their emotional experience. And he was gonna be okay when she moved on, maybe not easily , uh , maybe it was gonna hurt for a while . He’s gonna go to counseling. He promised her that, you know, but , but he was okay with it in the sense that they left nothing, hidden, nothing unexplored, nothing untalked about. And he was gonna be okay. And when people looked at him with sympathy, he was like, dude, give me sympathy. When I heard the news, don’t gimme sympathy now because I’m, I’m past all that. Right. I’m good. It don’t look at me like you need to feel sorry for me. I don’t want that. And it’s like, oh man, I learned so much from this.

Bunny: 37:07

I well, and I thought his story was powerful because they did. Um, I mean they were so good about talking at , through every part of it. He did promise to do grief counseling for a least three months. Mm-hmm <affirmative> , you know, there was , um, and , and , and I thought in his story, there were a lot of tips for survivors. You know, here’s, here’s a way to handle this process , um, that could work. And , and I always say it could work because I’d never wanna assume that. I know , um, you know, I know what somebody else’s experience is . That’s what I, in fact, I write blog posts sometimes what not to say to a cancer patient. And one of the things was, don’t say, well, at least you didn’t well, or , or it could be worse. People, people love to say, well, it could be worse. You know, you could have stage four or you, you know, it could be worse. You could have brain , like, are you kidding? Are you, you know, I, I , so it’s like you saying at least that piece , um, I , I do, I , I do wanna know how you felt that the people you spoke with how they were by , I mean, you provided them with this great opportunity to tell a story that they might not have otherwise.

David: 38:28

Yeah. And I don’t, it’s a great question, buddy . I , I don’t often talk about it because it’s, it’s a , it’s a little bit uh self-serving I think in a way to answer the , the question, truthfully,

Bunny: 38:42

Let me say it differently. Yeah . But if, if somebody else had some reluctance about asking somebody their story, I mean, I, you know, I , I can tell that you’re pretty, you’re pretty quick to, to back away from, from , um, giving yourself extra credit where perhaps you don’t think you deserve it. But I do think that people are affected by being allowed to tell their story , their hard stories

David: 39:11

They are. And , and I , and I had , um, it wasn’t always easy, but what , uh, what was great was that the people that ended up being in the book for some reason that I was the right person at the right time for them. Um, and uh , some of them like, you’ll get to, to , uh, uh, to , to one story where they weren’t ready to, to talk to me, but then a year later they were. And , um, some people I , I wasn’t able to get through to, but everybody that did make the book at at least once in more like multiple times bunny, even if they had been in very long supportive, loving relationships, even if they had had been , uh , a professional who had had, you know , um , a counseling or you name it at one point multiple points, usually somebody would say, well, all right , let’s talk about something I never really ever talked about. And that’s where, that’s where the real gem was, because that’s what I wanted to know is I , I wanna bring the real, you and I can’t bring the real, you , you know how, like, sometimes you want to copy a recipe that , uh , that , that a chef gives you

Bunny: 40:32

Mm-hmm

David: 40:32

<affirmative> okay . Right . But they left one thing out <laugh> , you know, and it’s just ever taste the same. And it’s like, dude, you , you can’t give me like 15 steps and leave step number seven out, you can’t skip step number seven. Cuz if you do, it’s not gonna be like the real thing I want the real thing. And so that was the, that was the beauty of it was, was that everybody was allowed , uh , allowed us to really delve into every single bit of it. And, and sometimes my wife would walk by the room. And when I was interviewing somebody , you know , on the phone, I was doing it on the phone and after I’d hung up, she , she would race back in. And she’s like, you can’t ask somebody that you, you, you can’t, you can’t, what are you doing? And I’m like, oh man. Yeah. Sometimes it was a little deep. It was really, really deep, but I felt fortunate. And I think even now out of the 15 people , um , most of ’em are still around. Um, I’d say half of ’em , I’m still in contact with, in , in a couple of those. I’m very good friends with now. Some of the people I , I don’t talk to anymore and we were just pastor buyers in each other’s life, but at the right time in a place. But for somehow some way, I’m hoping that each was , uh , touched by the fact that they were able to get the true story out. The real honest, raw, every step of the ingredient, every little, every little piece of it as a, as a gift to the reader to say here, here’s my story. And here’s what maybe you could learn from it that you could take too your own life. And, and that was , um, I think, I think that’s what they got out of it. And, and I could tell even like with Jen, could you imagine sending Jen her story and where I’m talking about her being six years old and losing her dad and all of this crazy stuff and blah blah , could you imagine me sending her her story and having gotten it wrong? Right. Oh my God. My , my wife lasted me because when I was sending the stories out bunny , like five minutes later, I’d be like, they haven’t answered me. They hate the story. They hate me <laugh> you know, and then she would be like, yeah, they probably have full lives. And they didn’t, they’re not waiting her email for, to see their , but Jen , um, she, about a week after I sent it to her and I’m , I’m not sleeping for a week cuz I’m feeling so guilty. Like maybe I screwed it up. She sent me an email that said, Hey, I’m gonna get to your story the next day or two. And I’m just like, oh my God, you’re killing me. So she finally writes me this, this, this email and she, and, and it was the sweetest thing ever. She said, I showed this to my mom and a couple of my friends that you wrote about in , in the story, she goes, every word of it is perfect. She goes, I, I can’t even change a word. She goes, it’s just so perfect. And I went , uh , that so nice. Right. Cause you know, how , how, how scary that could be. But so, so to get the stories right , um, was, was I think something important for them and, and I think that’s what they got out of it again. Another long rambling answer, but that’s a good question. Oh

Bunny: 43:51

No, no, I, I, I appreciate that effort. I, I , I mean, I just keep thinking about your sister and how honored she would be by what you did for all of these other people. I just , um, tell me, I , I, and I hate to, I hate to stop now because there’s so much more to say, but tell me if you, I always, I always wanna give people , um, something really practical to take away, but what do , if , if you know, from, from talking to these people and from going through this massive, I , I mean, logistically, this just sounds so huge to me, but what do you feel like you learned about , um, I don’t know the , I mean, almost like about the human spirit, but also about people who are in the midst of this sort of a crisis and about yourself. Wow. That’s a big, long, that’s a big question. Pick

David: 44:49

Something. Let me answer that in about force seconds. Um , yeah ,

Bunny: 44:53

No , no , no. You take your time.

David: 44:55

I appre I appreciate that. So , so look , um, what I learned about myself was , um, it’s so funny. Can , can I tell you really what I learned about myself? It’s so sure . It’s just so funny. So I’m writing these 15 stories. Okay. And, and we were talking for about, about editors and that type of stuff. So I write, I write the stories and I send it to my editor, trying to convince her to , to edit the book. And she eventually did, but, but she said to me, she goes, dude, you got this all wrong. Right. Because every person I spoke to bunny , every single person, they’re like, well, yeah , I’ll talk to you, but I don’t know. My story’s not that, that interesting. Right. And we’re talking about some of the most interesting people I’ve ever encountered in my life. Right. But every single one of ’em is like, eh , nobody wants to hear my story. Yeah . It’s not the cause we’re all just living our lives. Right. And so I send the 15 stories to my , to my editor and she sends me back a note. She goes, you have this all wrong. She goes, you are not part of their lives. Get yourself out. Cause I had done it like interview style, right. I talked to ’em interview style and she goes, no, take yourself out of their story. Write it from their perspective, cuz you’re not part of their life. You’re you’re, you’re a , you’re a witness to their life. You’re not part of life. Get yourself out of their stories. Not interesting to have you part of their story. It’s not authentic. She goes, what I would suggest you do is write your story about the bike ride about June, about this. And I wrote back to her an email that said, yeah, but Jenny, nobody’s gonna be interested in my story. It’s not that interesting. <laugh> And she said, yeah, isn’t that would everybody of your people said , you know , I’m like, yeah, I guess so. So I , I guess , um, like, like don’t, don’t compare your life to somebody else’s and , and cuz it it’s no better, it’s no worse. It’s just your life. There’s this wonderful concept called Saunder it’s the idea of Saer which is this deep understanding that you are just a passive buyer and everybody else’s life and they’re just a passive buyer and yours, you gotta live your own life. And that’s a very humbling and empowering thing at the same time is that if you realize it’s your life and you gotta live it and just, just, just like, like wear the suit, you know? And I think that this book writing this book allowed me to realize that everybody’s life is really spectacular, even your own and, and um, you know, just take from it what you can learn and, and apply it as you go forward. Because , um, you know, you can’t know, you can’t assume we talked earlier about you can’t assume you what people are going through. You can’t know what they’ve gone through. Um, you can’t, you can’t say the right things every time you, you can’t know, you know, what’s gonna happen lean in and be authentic, be yourself like connect with the people that you can connect with in an authentic way. Um, and, and I think that’s probably the thing I learned the most is is that , uh, there’s so much behind that idea of not knowing what people have gone through and, and also it it’s okay in content to tell your story , you know, not , not make their experience about yours, but in the right context, your life’s just as important as everybody else’s.

Bunny: 48:18

There’s not much I can add to that, but I do wanna say again, I , that part where you said every life is, is spectacular, even yours. And I want everybody to remember the , I mean, every story is so important, David. I , I always say this, but I have to have you back. Can you come back? <laugh> can we do this again? Let’s keep talking . I wanna talk about your other book. Okay .

David: 48:42

Yeah, let’s do that. But also I love to hear when you get through and especially in New Mexico, there’s a couple of good stories in New Mexico, but you like those when I’d love to hear when you get through what your thoughts are, because when , uh , people , uh, have gone through experiences, such as I imagine , uh , uh , yours has done to you, it just gives you kind of like a sixth sense about, about these stories and I , and, and you know about people and their experience. And it just , like you said, at the beginning, it’s like this community that you just now are , uh , you know, for , for your life, a part of and how could you not, you know, do the things you do. I’d love to hear if any of the stories resonated a little bit more than any of the others with you.

Bunny: 49:25

Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s all we’ve got today. Friends. I wanna thank you for J joining the lifesaving gratitude podcast with your host bunny , Terry that’s me and my producer and assistant Johanna Medina. We feel like we’re in the business of sharing the stories that save us and we hope you’ll share as well by letting your friends and family know about the podcast follow and like us wherever you listed . And please take the time to leave a review, whether it’s a stellar comment or a suggestion, we are open to suggestions all the time. Also follow us on Instagram at live saving gratitude pod . You can also follow me personally at bunny Terry , Santa Fe. You can sign up@mywebsiteatbunnyterry.com to receive weekly email about how to become the ultimate gratitude nerd. Thanks so much for checking in .

Bunny: Hi everyone. This is Bunny with the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. Just in case you don’t know me, I am a stage four colon cancer survivor and the author of Lifesaving Gratitude, which is a book about how gratitude helped me kick cancer’s ass. 

Today we’re going to talk to a special guest about how marketing and marketers can use gratitude to create business and connections with clients and also for themselves to create a really positive way to do their job. But first, I just want to thank you for being here and ask that you download the podcast if you’d like. And certainly subscribe wherever you listen to other podcasts. But enough about me and enough about the podcast. 

I want to introduce you to my special guest, who’s also a friend. Craig Cunningham is currently a realtor with Keller Williams, Santa Fe. And that’s how I met him. However, this is a recent career for him and he was, and correct me if I mispronounce the word, but you were a hotelier. Is that the way to say that?

Craig: Yes. 

Bunny: Yes. He’s spent 30 years in corporate sales and marketing. He’s traveled extensively. I’m going to let him tell you all the places that he’s been to, but he is the founder and principal of Cunningham + Colleagues marketing consultants. He was in the past the VP of marketing and quality for Seaport Hotels and World Centers and the VP of marketing for Core North America. So welcome Craig Cunningham.

Craig: Thanks so much for having me on your podcast.

Bunny: I’m excited. I know you have some great tips for all of our listeners. When I think about these podcasts, I always think about the people that are going to want the information we’re offering. I mean, we’re here to help people and we’re here to figure out how gratitude can make everyone’s life not just easier and simpler, but also fuller. So why don’t you start, Greg? Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us how in the world you ended up in this completely different career? And yet the truth is we’re still just marketers first and realtors, second. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell our listeners.

Craig: Yeah. So, as you said, I’ve been in marketing and sales for more than 30 years. I actually started off with an advertising and PR agency and then had the good fortune to be hired by my hotel client at the time, Wyndham hotels. At that time it was a North American chain and it’s now international. 

But from then on, I was in the hotel business. It’s definitely a career where if you are not focused on client service and the whole concept of gratitude, you’re not going to be successful. I always thought of our job as just surprising and delighting our guests and making them feel like they chose the right hotel to be with. And so it was always about waking up every day and saying, “What can I do to make somebody’s day and to give them a great experience?” And, of course, to do this you have to be grateful because they opted to choose your hotel over the million other choices that they had. 

So when I retired from the hotel business two years ago, I was trying to figure out what else I wanted to do with my life. I started doing more volunteering. I volunteer with Kitchen Angels here in Santa Fe to deliver meals to people who are not able to leave their homes. But I also started thinking of whether I wanted to do something else from a professional standpoint and the real estate business seemed like a natural extension, because it’s all about client service. You have to figure out ways to make people feel like they’ve made the right choice in working with you. So it’s all about being grateful every day and figuring out what can I do to help them today. How else can I extend what I’m doing for them in a way that they will appreciate and know that I appreciate them. So that’s what it’s really all about, because of course they could work with a million other other people

Bunny: Right. And let’s talk for just a second. Don’t you think that marketing has changed over the 30 years that you’ve been doing this? I mean, it seems to me that when we were kids, which was back before the crust cooled, we were sort of marketed at. Just talk for a minute about how marketing is different now than it was 10 years ago or 30 years ago.

Craig: It’s funny, because I was going to say the exact same thing. Back in the day, you were running a TV ad or a radio spot or a print ad and it was passive in that you just presented the information, unless you were direct sales. But really with the advent of so much digital media, you are instantly able to forge a relationship with customers through social media, through Facebook, Instagram, where you’re having a dialogue with them from the very beginning. This allows you to work in a much more personal way and to be able to find out much more quickly how you can serve those people. 

So I think it’s changed completely. Before you just sort of put it out there into the ether and hope that something worked, and now you’re able to engage. And I’ve found that so much in real estate where I’m getting emails from folks and then it evolves from the email into a phone call or a zoom call or something like that instantly. I think that’s so much better for both people. Especially for somebody like me who wants to find ways to engage with people and to be of service to them, it makes it a lot easier and more rewarding.

Bunny: I just think about the ways that I connect with my clients. It’s as if you’re somehow conveying to those people that you’re grateful that they showed up.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, my whole thought is that it’s not a transaction, it’s a relationship. And that relationship can be multifaceted. Once you’ve sold them a house or sold their house, I like to think that we’ve formed a friendship and a bond and that relationship is going to continue. And honestly, I don’t even care if I ever get another piece of business for them. Now think of them as friends. I want to have them to my house for dinner or go have coffee or something like that. 

I think that kind of thing that makes a difference for people in wanting to work with me.  It’s coming from a position of wanting to be of service to them and wanting to make them happy and finding the right solution for them. I’m working with some first-time-buyers right now and I kind of feel like they’re my kids. It’s about, okay, how can I really help them with this? And they’re grateful for the counsel I’m able to give to them, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to work with them. So it’s very rewarding. I think if you approach business relationships in the same way as you would with your friends, it’s a win-win situation for everybody.

Bunny: Well, talking about those first-time home buyers, I mean, that’s one of my favorite deals. You never make the most money from those transactions, but I’m so grateful to be reminded that we are providing the American dream when we’re selling real estate. Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s my favorite experience.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, for somebody to have their first home and to be excited about how they’re going to decorate it and what they’re going to do. And with this young couple, seeing them excited when they see a house brings out all my empathy and makes me want to really go the extra mile for them to make sure they find the right house at the right price for them. And then I just never want to stop. So then it’s like, “Okay, now I’m going to find this person for you to do the plumbing, and I’m going to find this person, etc, and I’ll be with you with you  to help explain things.” I just want to really continue to be of service.

Bunny: I talk a lot, especially on my blog, about Judy Camp, who was one of my first real estate mentors. She was a great friend and Linda Gammons partner for a long time before she passed away. But Judy Camp always says, “If you come from contribution, you can’t help but be successful.”

Craig: Yeah. I mean, just as I was saying, you can’t think of it as a transaction. I think, coming from contribution, how can I help you? How can I make this a better experience? How can I make this work? Because, especially in a real estate transaction, it can be stressful. It’s the biggest financial transaction for the majority of us. So how do you take the burden and the pressure away from them and sort of guide them through the process? I just think the main thing is that it’s much more fun, whether you’re doing volunteer work or in business, to wake up every day and figure out how I could make it fun for somebody else. Because then it’s fun for you and it gets you excited and passionate about what you’re doing.

Bunny: Well, it sounds like our big “why’s” are really similar. I certainly don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but it sounds like your big “why” is just to make the life of the people you come in contact with better.

Craig: Yeah. Of course making money is nice, but there are lots of ways to make money. It’s more about whether you are getting energy from it. And I think you really get energy when you’re working with someone and trying to figure out how you can help them, how you can make their day better, how you can make the service that you’re providing better. And also just doing things that saying, “What about if I do X, Y, Z?” and they’re  like, “Oh, you’ll do that for me?” And I’m like, “Of course.”

I have another set of clients where the transaction was fairly complicated and we were looking at lots of properties. Coming from a corporate background, I love to do spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations—things like that. And so after about the third thing we had to do, they’re like, “Oh, how are we going to organize all these bids?”  And then one of the guys said to the other guy, “Well, Craig’s going to do a spreadsheet for us. He’s probably already got it done.” So it’s that kind of thing where you’re looking for ways to make their experience better.

Bunny: So this is always a funny question for me to ask, because I have such a loose gratitude practice other than just waking up in the morning and saying, “thank you, thank you, thank you,” and then writing things down, but do you have a practice that you follow that helps you both in your business and your personal life?

Craig: Well, since I came into real estate with Keller Williams, which focuses a lot on being servant leaders and helping people, I’ve gotten into the habit of writing three things I’m grateful for that day. It could be that it’s a beautiful day or a dog or my partner or the opportunity to help somebody or the coffee’s really good that day, but waking up and appreciating what you have in your life is a good way to get in a good mindset for the rest of it.

Bunny: Oh, absolutely. Something I always say is that we kind of rewire our brains. We do. We create new neural pathways every time we say that we’re grateful. So in terms of nuts and bolts, is there a way that you let your clients know? I mean, I find that there are a lot of young people, young entrepreneurs or people who are new to business, who forget how to tell their clients how they’re grateful for them, even if it’s a line in an email. Do you have something that you do specifically over and over?

Craig: I think for me, it’s maybe more in the actions. I think of “This is really going to be helpful if I do this or if I provide this information.” I think it’s always in my voice and the way that I write. I try to always communicate openly and in a friendly and conversational manner. But then I also think “It would be really cool and really helpful if I did X , Y , Z.” I created a whole PowerPoint just on the neighborhoods in Santa Fe, because if you’re out of town it gets confusing. And that came out of a client saying, “Well, I don’t really know the neighborhoods.” And I thought that this would be a great tool for them. So I created it and then I was able to use it with others. 

So I think for me, maybe it’s sort of on the fly. I used to say in the hotel hotel business, “How can I make this a wow experience?” Because the other way to think about it is that every relationship is with people. When you’re in a service business you’re really in the business of creating memories. You can create good memories or you can create bad memory and it’s much more fun to create good memories.

Bunny: And that just comes from a spirit of generosity. I mean, you obviously want this to be the best real estate experience they’ve ever had.

Craig: Right. Right. I’m very grateful for the people that have helped me along the way. I’ve been very fortunate in my career to always work for people who were concerned about my career development and my personal development and became dear friends. And I’ve had a couple of bosses that have hired me twice in two different jobs. So I’m always grateful for the things that other people have done for me. 

So then I want to pay it forward. When I came to Keller Williams and I was introduced to the team here, there was so much openness and willingness to share and help and support. It has been fantastic. What strikes me the most is how grateful I am for what other people have done for me. And how do I pay that back?

Bunny: I mean, this is not a podcast to plug Keller Williams. It’s really more to talk about mindset, but the place where I learned it was sitting in that training room and learning that my mindset was the secret sauce. I mean, that’s the success piece, right?

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s not just about production and everything. It’s about weight and having a sense of gratitude and contribution and a sense of abundance. And I don’t mean that in a monetary way. It could be abundance in your health or your friends or all of that kind of stuff. And I think back to you. Your experience with cancer was far worse than mine, but I did have prostate cancer about nine years ago. Everyone I worked with during that entire time when I was going for radiation every day for 10 weeks was so supportive. And then on the last day of radiation, there was this very important meeting, and everyone knew it was my last day.My whole team had a celebration for me on my last day. That was turning something that was obviously a challenging situation into something where I knew they really cared about me and supported me.

Bunny: Wow. I’m interested to hear how your mindset was in the middle of that? 

Craig: I’m just by nature, an optimistic person. So even though it was scary, I felt like I was in good hands from a medical standpoint and I just felt like I was gonna beat it. I had done the education that I needed to and then it was really about having a positive mindset. 

This is probably too much information, but I’ll say it anyway. You’re doing the radiation stripped down to your boxer shorts. And so I jokingly put this Facebook thing about the fact that I needed a new pair of boxer shorts for every day. And people started sending me underwear—different pairs of boxer shorts for every day. So while I was sitting there in the big machine, where you’re sort of in there and it’s buzzing and scanning and all that kind of stuff, it got to be kind of a joke with the techs:  “Oh , what’s he going to be wearing today?”

Bunny: I love that.

Craig: That was a way to keep my spirits up. And also during that process, I really learned how to be very focused. I was in a waiting room with people that were going through, frankly, worse things than prostate cancer. Don’t get me wrong, prostate cancer is pretty serious. It is. People die from it. But I was seeing so many other people that were having a much more challenging time than I was. And we became a family. We all bonded together during that process, because we were all waiting, sometimes for an hour. So it’s things like that. And also things like the kitchen angels service, where it helps reboot you every day for how grateful you should be in your own life and grateful for the opportunity to help other people.

Bunny: Right. There are tons of people who do get what a gift it is. People who don’t even have a specific gratitude practice, but at least an attitude every day that you’re going to figure out something. I just wrote a blog post on limiting beliefs and one of the things that I wanted to convey is that we get to choose every single moment how we view the world. And maybe for somebody out there who’s brand new in business or who’s starting a new business. I just read a statistic that said that the entrepreneur demographics are changing. And now like 48% of new entrepreneurs are over 50. So hooray for the old people! 

But I know that there are people out there right now who are thinking, “Well, I’m not any good at marketing. I’m not any good at that piece of it. I can sell stuff, but I’m not good at the marketing stuff.” I’ve got to tell you, I’m married to a guy who doesn’t believe in self promotion because he came from a generation when you played down your assets, instead of being grateful for them and talking about them. So I’d love to hear what you have to say to somebody who has that limiting belief that they can’t market. And they can’t promote themselves.

Craig: You know, we could all market ourselves, and we do it every day in our interactions.  Whether we think of it as marketing or not, we’re marketing ourselves all day long in how we react and treat other people. The thought I had as you were talking about your husband thinking self-promotion sounds like a dirty word is that it doesn’t have to be you talking  about “me, me, me” and “I did this million dollars in revenue.” This is kind of a turnoff in some ways, because you’re talking about yourself. But if you’re talking about how you can help somebody else and how you can provide a good experience for them with your information and knowledge, you’re not talking about yourself in that context. You’re talking about how you can be of service. I think that’s a much easier way for a lot of people from a generation where we weren’t really supposed to be talking about ourselves.

Bunny: Well, it was pre-social media. Our face wasn’t out there. We just weren’t trained to tell people, “Here’s the reason you should hire me instead of the other person.”

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, now we’re all our own brands on social media. But I think that rather than saying to somebody, “Here’s why you should hire me versus somebody else,” you should just talk about how you can be of service in what you do in an authentic way. Then people are more likely to want to work with you, because you’re radiating a sense of positivity and an interest in them. And they’re not thinking that you just look at them as a transaction and then you’re onto the next person.

Bunny: I frequently use with my marketing coaching clients the example of a dinner party. If you went into a dinner party (and this is for people who are just beginning in whatever business they’re in, especially if they’re self-employed), you wouldn’t simply walk in, take your coat off and say, “Hey, I’m selling something, come and talk to me.” Right? I mean, that’s what you don’t want to do with marketing. You want to start by building a relationship. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Craig: I think it goes all the way back to Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. People do like to talk about themselves. And so the first thing is you should be listening. That was one of the first things I learned in marketing client service. You need to ask questions and learn from your clients. Focus on what they need, as opposed to talking about yourself. You really want to establish a dialogue with them about their wants and needs and hopes and fears and everything else. Then you can talk about how you can address them. But nobody wants to go in and all of a sudden have you sit down and say, “Here’s my PowerPoint about me and what I’ve done.” It should be more of establishing, from the very beginning, a relationship of openness with folks. Then, after hearing from them, you can say “Well, here’s how I think I can you and here are some ideas that I have that I could share with you.” So I think a key thing is really listening from the very beginning.

Bunny: I even found that to be helpful when I used to first go on listing appointments. I was so nervous that I would sit down and I would immediately try to book an appointment. You know, if you’re not in real estate, a listing appointment is just like sitting down with a prospective customer. I would be so nervous in the beginning and really coming from a place of scarcity where I thought, “If I don’t get this listing, I’m not sure I can pay the rent next month.” And if you’re coming from a place of scarcity, you’re likely to self-sabotage. But that’s such good advice because things changed when I finally learned how to sit back and listen: “I’m here to help you. Tell me what it is that you need. Talk to me.” It’s so powerful to give a client time to talk to you. And I think people forget to do that, right?

Craig: Yeah. And I think sometimes we do it because we’re afraid. What I’ve learned so much over the years in business working with people is that people are terrified of silence, so they will immediately start talking. If there’s a second of silence, you jump in and start babbling. Lord knows I do it. But if you just let somebody talk and let it sort of sit there for a second and not just try to be filling in all the time. It drives me crazy when people are doing that. It’s much better if you can have the client talk and then ask some more questions and then be warm and reflective about it. Back to the Dale Carnegie thing, I think one of his first points was if you’re at the dinner party, ask people about themselves. Most people do like to talk about themselves. So ask them and don’t just start talking about yourself. 

Bunny: I think that even people who would say, “I don’t like to talk about myself,” really do want somebody to ask them and listen to them.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s not just asking them to go on and on. It’s more meaningful questions about, for example, why they decided to move here. Just those kinds of questions that get them thinking. Growing up in materialistic Dallas, the joke was that the questions at a party were like, “Where do you live? What do you do? What do you drive?” And so it’s not questions like that. It’s asking them more about their life experience,

Bunny: You just brought me to another completely different point, which is for any realtors out there listening: I think it’s really important to convey to your clients how grateful you are for where you live. I mean, if our lifestyle is such a selling point, don’t you think you should share that?

Craig: Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, living in Santa Fe there’s so much beauty. I’m looking out my window right now at the beautiful blue sky. When I leave my house in the morning and I see the mountains, and then when I’m coming home at night and the sun is setting over the mountains and I see all the different colors and everything, it’s just breathtaking. It’s great to live in such a great and wonderful environment and in a place that is very spiritual, going back with the native Americans—respect for the earth and nature and all of those things—I think it does help center us more than a lot of other places.

Bunny: How do you convey that to your clients? I know you’re doing something really cool online that’s different from some other realtors.

Craig: Well, I’m not just posting on my Facebook page,” Hey, I just sold this house or just sold that house.” Well, that’s great. But I’m more talking about new experiences in Santa Fe: new restaurants, or a new place to go hiking, or something exciting that’s happening at one of the museums or things like that—enthusiastically talking about the experience of living in Santa Fe. And if down the road, by the way, you’re looking at this stuff and you decide you want to buy a house here, I would love to help you. But it’s more about conveying the reason why we all want to live here

Bunny: And tell us about your blog, because I think it’s amazing.

Craig: So I created this blog, which is called Santa Fe Scenes. It’s that same kind of thing where it’s just talking about having fun in Santa Fe. One of the things was, you know, we’ve got the old Santa Fe trail and we’ve got the old Pincus trail, but did you know that we had a Margarita trail and a Chocolate trail? Stuff like that. Just being whimsical about it and talking about some of the things are unique about the city and sharing my own passion for Santa Fe. I was very fortunate to be able to do a lot of international travel for my job. I was grateful for the opportunity that I was given to see places that I wouldn’t have seen otherwise from Bogota to Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro and Beijing and places like that. So I’ve always been enthusiastic about travel and now living in such a beautiful place like Santa Fe, I want to share that enthusiasm with people.

Bunny: And you’re getting some good feedback on that I bet, right?

Craig: Yes, I am. I’m getting good feedback on it. It’s been a wonderful thing to reconnect with friends who are saying, “Good for you, you old dog! You’re back out there trying something new.” Because whenever someone says, “Oh, you’re a new realtor,” I say, “Well, I’m an old new realtor. I’m 61 and I’m starting this for the first time.” But it’s been great from that perspective and the support that you get from your friends. Then people are saying, “Oh, well, I know somebody who might be interested in sending you that information.” I think that’s one of the positive things that social media has done where we’ve been able to reconnect with so many people that we might have completely lost touch with.

Bunny: Oh yeah. I did a post not very long ago about how grateful I was, and it was in the middle of all the fear over Facebook and Twitter. And I just said that it’s such a great platform for reconnecting with cousins that I haven’t seen since I was six. I mean, I just turned 60. I’m an old dog and this is a new trick for me, but I think that if you use it the right way, it’s a real gift. I also think there are so many realtors, like you said, who just post either pictures of houses that they have listed or their accomplishments. And I think they’re really missing an opportunity.

Craig: Yeah. Because then you’re just talking at someone. You’re not sharing information and excitement about things with them. People don’t want to look at that stuff. They want to look at things like the fact that there are like six great chocolate tiers in Santa Fe. And then the next time I’m in town, I want to go to each one of them. Or discovering an amazing new hiking trail or a beautiful image of a shop window or a piece of art or something like that. 

Bunny: Yeah, it’s so much better than “I just listed this house at 123 main street. Don’t you wish you owned it?” Exactly.

Craig: Exactly. I think more people would react to it. I’d really like to have some of that green chili chocolate over at The Chocolate Smith or whatever. It’s much more interesting than a picture of a kitchen that has granite countertops. Oh my goodness.

Bunny: And, you know, Craig, I found that people will call me and they’ll say, “Well, I’ve been following you on Facebook for two years. And I feel like you’re my best friend. I think you’d be the right person to show me around and help me find a house.” And I bet that’s happening to you too.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s funny, you mentioned that. One of the people I’ve been mentoring told me a story about how she posted a lovely picture of herself and then somebody called her and said, “I feel like I already know you because you just look like a nice person and I feel like I can trust you.” I think also that it’s our eyes and our smile and everything that conveys so much of what you’re talking about. If you have a spirit of gratitude and service and a sense of abundance, not scarcity, it shows in your face, your eyes, your smile, and your whole persona.

Bunny: Well, we’re going to have to wrap up here in a minute, but I would love to hear if you have just three great tips that you would give to somebody who feels kind of stuck in their marketing. It could be what you’ve learned in 30 years or in the last three days, whatever it is.

Craig: I think one is changing your question from “How do I market myself?” to “What can I do for this client?” or “What can I do that’s going to excite the people? How can I make them feel appreciated and valued?” And this can work in cases where you’re actually working one-on-one with a client or cases where you’re trying to figure out how to promote what you’re doing. How do I find ways to surprise and delight people? So I like to do that with social media buys, where you come up with quirky, little things to talk about that are authentically Santa Fe or a funny picture of my dog or something like that. You want to put a smile on people’s faces. And social media gives us so many opportunities to be able to do that in ways that we couldn’t before. So the main thing at the end of it is to put your client first, and then I think everything else will come from there.

Bunny: You’re absolutely right. I think as long as your passion is helping people, then success is just a natural by-product of that.

Craig: Exactly. People feel that energy and then they want to tell their friends about you.

Bunny: What I’ve found is that people want to be able to trust somebody, especially in this business where they’re making possibly the biggest purchase of their life.

Craig: Right? I’m thinking back to these younger clients. We were touring houses, and they were interested in one particular house and I was like, “No, I’m not going to let you buy this. This is not the right move.” And I think all of a sudden they’re like, “Wow, he really cares. He’s not just thinking ‘Tick tock, tick tock. We’ve seen three houses.’” This is not House Hunters International where there are the three properties and you have to buy one. So again, it’s not a transaction. It’s a journey. It’s a relationship.

Bunny: I think that’s the most important tip for somebody to take away. Whether you’re selling widgets or earrings or house cars or houses, this is not a transaction. It’s a relationship. We want people to trust you and come back over and over. I don’t know how you can love your job if you’re not doing it the way we’re doing it.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. And have fun with it. We get to meet interesting people all day long. We get to see things. We get to use our own creativity to express ourselves. I know there are people that are in jobs that don’t have that. But I also read things about  the janitor in an elementary school who takes real pride in what they do, and they are going to do the best job that they possibly can. So I think in almost everything, you can come at it with a mindset of “How can I make this a great experience for me and for others?”

Bunny: That’s great stuff. Tell us where people can find you and where they can find your blog.

Craig: Well, probably the most fun thing I’m doing is the Santa Fe Scenes blog. 

Bunny: Okay. And we’ll share that on the information page for the podcast. And then, of course, if people want to buy a house from you, they can find you through there?

Craig: Yeah. All my information is on there. So one stop shop.

Bunny: Craig, I’m so excited that you were here. This was fun. I think we could do it again.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Bunny: Because I think this is the place where people get stuck. People who are self-employed get stuck in this part. And so I think there’s a lot of stuff that we can talk about.  But I’m of course really grateful that you agreed to talk with us.

Craig: Oh, thanks. It’s been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. 

Bunny: And to everybody else, thanks for being here. This is once again, the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry. You are welcome to go to my website if you’d like to learn more about me and about buying my book, which is all about gratitude and how gratitude helped me kick stage four cancer’s ass. And we’d love to have you follow us and subscribe on spot Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks so much, Craig.

Craig: Thank you. Next time.