55. Courageous Gratitude: Natalee Young

Bunny: (00:10)
Hi there and welcome to the life saving gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry and I am joined by my co-host and my producer, Johanna Medina. And today we have a guest whoJohanna knows personally. She met her, I believe during college. And, and when we started talking about having her on the show, I was surprised to find out that, at a young age and exactly a year ago, our guest Natalee Young was diagnosed with a chronic illness. And I Johanna I’d really like for you to talk to folks a little bit about how inspiring you found Natalee, even before we talked to her.

Johanna: (00:49)
Yeah. I mean, like you said, I knew Natalee before from college. I mean, I’ve known her for quite a while through a mutual friend. And, even though we’re not, in touch as much anymore, she’s very, visible and active on social media. So, you know, just like how everyone is now, we kept up that way. And I remember about a year ago now she was posting a lot about, you know, being in the hospital and trying to figure out what was going on. And then she found out, that she had MS. And just to see she’s very, I like she says in the episode it’s very, I think helpful to her and helpful to others for her to be sharing her story and kind of taking everyone along in the journey of her diagnosis and being real about it and being honest about what her symptoms are like and when she has bad days and, and then how she takes care of herself in between those. And, also, I think I’ve also been following Natalee because she is you know, she’s a woman in science she’s been working on the front lines of COVID. So just to kind of see both sides of that and to see not only how she’s dealing with it and working like she has worked crazy hours during the pandemic, and then now having to take a step back and take care of herself, but also knowing that her work is so important to her. And, I just, I just love her. She’s just a real person and she’s going through a really tough thing. And, and it’s for the rest of her life. I forgot to mention on the episode, I love, sometimes on her Instagram page, she’ll show her little pill box and it has a, it has a sticker on it that says her pill box says not old, just stick forever or something. It’s just like a little label on her thing. Maybe I’ll post a picture of that. It’s just funny, cuz she has like a good sense of humor about it. And, but she’s again, just honest and I think we do talk to a lot of people on the podcast that have, you know, again, chronic illnesses or diagnoses like cancer. I mean, that’s why this podcast guest got started. So I think she was a really great guest and I think our, you know, our listeners are gonna really love her story.

Bunny: (03:15)
Well, and I think she’s, she’s a perfect example of, you know, the idea that stories save us because she’s, I mean, she said she’s sharing and she’s meeting people all over the world who are, not only touched by her story, but inspired to keep going forward even when they have a similar diagnosis. So it’s changed her life to get this diagnosis. But boy, is she thriving? I’m so excited that you introduced us. She’s a great guest. So I would ask our listeners to stick around. She has some really funny ways that she copes and I love the fact that she has named, her illness and just you’re, you’re gonna love this one and just wanna thank you one more time for showing up for subscribing for reviewing us and for being a part of this. Thanks for checking in.

Bunny: (04:14)
Natalee. We are so excited to have you as a guest. I, you know, generally as not as a rule, but I would say predominantly most of the people that I talk to on the lifesaving gratitude podcast are, you know, people who have lived this long life, you know, people in their fifties and sixties and it’s such a privilege today to get to speak with somebody who is not only a friend of Johanna’s our producers and my daughter, but also someone who seems to me from following you on Instagram and reading your bio. You, it seems like you’ve lived quite a lifetime in your very short life. This is we, and we’ve spoken with guests before who have been diagnosed with chronic illnesses and then learned amazing ways to deal with them. And so I understand from Johanna that this is sort of an auspicious date because tomorrow is a year from when?

Natalee: (05:25)
From tomorrow being my diagnosis-anniversary of multiple sclerosis for one year, I have been diagnosed with this.

Bunny: (05:36)
Well, Natalee, I mean, I’m looking at you on this screen. How old are you right now?

Natalee: (05:41)
I am 30 years old.

Bunny: (05:43)
Wow. That’s… 30 years old is young at least in my understanding for a diagnosis of this type. I’m really interested. You know, we always, we say on the podcast all the time that stories save us. And so I know that the story that you’re gonna tell is gonna help to save somebody else or, or help for them to figure out how to make their life better. But can you just give us a quick, and it doesn’t have to be quick. I’m sorry, but just give it, tell us a little bit about you. And then I wanna hear about, whether getting diagnosed was a real challenge. I’m curious to know, because I’ve found that doctors tend to say to younger people, you know, it’s not that big a deal. I’m interested to hear how that all went.

Natalee: (06:35)
Yes. 100%, everything you’re saying is accurate and so true, but a little, just a little background about me. So, like I said, I’m 30. I actually was born and raised in Albuquerque New Mexico, which I think is great buddy, cuz I know that you are New Mexico native, which it’s the best state ever hands down, hands down. But I have just a background about me. I have lived a very adventurous kind of free spirited life. I left home when I was 18 to go to college and I kind of just hopped around different locations from Illinois to Kentucky, to Nashville, where I met my wonderful husband. I moved back here in 2017. So I’ve done a lot of different things in my life. You know, sports. I actually worked at a camp with kids that have a lot of different medical issues. So I’ve had a very at a young age in college, a very active, experience working with really young kids that have muscular dystrophy or sickle cell, our physical disabilities. So I have seen that, in my wife’s time. So I think that I have really was starting to be prepared at a young age to see how kids that should never have to go through this kind of thing, went through it and thrived and still lived their life. So that was, has been really helpful for me. But I think in terms of my Ms and the diagnosis of it, it was a mix of, there were maybe I would say maybe in 2018 or so I was starting to have some symptoms, but I kind of pushed them aside because, you know, oh, it’s probably just a sports injury or this or that, but in the back of my mind, I was always a little worried because, my half sister on my dad’s side, she has a MS. So I kind of was always in the back of my mind, worried about it, but I kind of just pushed it aside, tried to not, you know, stay on Google, searching stuff for hours. But then I told my primary care doctor the symptoms I was having, it was kind of a weird symptom when I try to explain it, it’s called Lamit syndrome. So when I move my neck down, like my chin to my chest, I would feel electrical shock, go down my spine. So pretty scary. And when I say it I think I just got so used to it that when I say it out loud, I’m like, oh, that’s actually very scary. Like I ask my husband, I’m like, do you ever get that? He’s like, I’ve never had that . So I told my, my primary care doctor about it and I told her, you know, I’m nervous about this. I think I need to see a neurologist. And she was great and she gave me a referral, but then fast forward to 2019, me and my husband got married, so everything got pushed back. I didn’t do anything. I never saw a neurologist and then fast forward to 2020, and we all know what happened. Mm-hmm so, yeah. So it’s been kinda, a long journey before I got to where I got to in 2021.

Johanna: (10:02)
Were any of the doctors kind like Bunny said, like, oh no, you know, it’s probably just like, like you said, like some other injury or, oh, you’re probably getting migraines or something. Like, did anybody brush it off or do you feel like the doctors were really you know, good about checking up on that?

Natalee: (10:19)
I think that’s such a great question. I think that I got lucky because my primary care doctor is really good. So she also knows that I deal with anxiety. So she was like, you, I don’t think you have it, but let’s go ahead and get, take you to a neurologist. So you can just not be anxious and think that you have it. So she was really good with that. And to be honest, I got very lucky because I’ve always been really healthy. So I never really went to the doctor or tried to try to get things taken care of. So I didn’t have to go through a lot of doctors. And then I think I got really lucky, which I’ll share with you guys, you know, my diagnosis story was, it was so intense that it was pretty undeniable. That that was what was going on.

Johanna: (11:03)
Yeah. I definitely wanna hear more of your story cuz I was following you online, obviously I’ve known you for a long time, but I was following kind of what was going on on Instagram. And I remember even texting our mutual friend Alexia and being like, what is going on with Natalee? Like, and, and I remember just being so scared for you, so yeah. What was, what was that like for you in, in the moment kind of, you know, take us back.

Natalee: (11:32)
yeah, no problem. So it was terrifying actually. It started when I, so it was last year and I had, so to go back a little further during COVID I was on the front lines of COVID. So I was, so I work as a medical laboratory scientist. So anytime you got swabbed, it was coming to me and I was running your test and I was telling the doctor what to tell you. so very stressful, very exhausting. And I actually got recruited to go help at another startup lab to help their molecular department help them run. So I did that for a while and then it was a startup and it wasn’t really going in the direction I needed it to go. So I went to another job and it was kind of one of those things where we, I just needed to find something because my husband got furloughed from COVID. So I was really, you know, using my degree and my knowledge to make sure that we were had an income. You know, he was doing a great job, started a business from home, but we needed to have, you know, insurance and all of those fun things that I realized you need to have as an adult. So anyways, so I was working at this job that was a terrible fit and I was working graveyard and it was the most stressful job I’ve ever worked in my life. So my anxiety and my stress was already so high in my body, cuz I was like, this job has to work. Like I just left another job. This has to work. But my body was like, no, it’s not gonna work at all. We’re not gonna do this job. So that’s what initiated my first flare up. So I was at work late at night and I was in the bathroom and my entire right arm went completely numb for about a couple of hours.

Natalee: (13:22)
So, I sat on the bathroom floor, literally holding my arm and only being able to feel it, cuz I know I have an arm, and just sobbing, crying and just feeling so scared. And it was also the right side of my face was also numb, but it had been numb for about five days. And again, with me being really strong willed and really never being sick, I was like, oh this is normal. It was not normal. So I left work. I could not pull myself together. I came home to my husband and literally he, I was, I cried myself to sleep and I’m like, babe, we have to go tomorrow. Like, and it’s one of those things where he was kind of like, well, where do we go? What do we do? Cause it’s not, it’s invisible. You know what I mean? It’s not this thing of, oh, I’m bleeding or my arm is broken or whatever. So he’s like, okay, we try to figure it out. So we got up the next morning, we go to urgent care and you know, or you know how urgent care is you sit there and they get you in and they’re like, let’s run an x-ray. And I’m like, I don’t need an x-ray but let’s run it anyways. So it was kind of one of those things where I had to start advocating for myself very quickly. And I got really fortunate and very blessed because there was a nurse there. I told her, I said, I need an MRI. Whatever is going on with me is a lot deeper than anything. You can just see looking at me. So she told me and I wish I knew her name cause I really want to go thank her. She told me to go to a specific emergency room in Albuquerque and she said, they will do all of the testing. You need go there and they will get everything done. If you think you need to get an MRI, they will do that for you. So I said, thank you so much. You know, they let me go home cuz they’re like, you’re healthy. You’re fine. Pay us whatever the price is for this urgent care visit. , so then go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah.

Bunny: (15:23)
Well Natalee, I’m so curious because if I were to have those symptoms and I went in, they would say, oh my gosh, you’re having a stroke. Did anybody say that to you?

Natalee: (15:34)
They did not say that at the urgent care they did not say anything about a stroke. Yeah. They were just like, oh no, you’re you’re young. You’re healthy. You’re beautiful. Everything is fine for you. It’s like, no,

Johanna: (15:49)
it’s not what pat you On the head and send you off?

Natalee: (15:50)
yeah. Like you’re fine, honey. You just, this is just anxiety and maybe a muscle cramp or whatever. Yeah. But exactly buddy. That’s exactly how I felt. Cuz it was like, and you hear that. Right. So even my husband’s like, well babe, how do we explain this more? Is going to the ER, actually gonna help? And I was like, I dunno. I was like, but hopefully they will. They will do more for me in an emergency type situation than an urgent care. Right. Same thing. I was like, whatever’s going on is not normal. At this point I was still thinking maybe MS. But I was like, am I having a stroke at 30? You know, all of that stuff. So we wake up early the next day we come home, wake up early the next day to, you know, be the first ones at the ER, mind you, this was also all during COVID too during a wave of COVID. And I’m like, oh, let’s go to the emergency room. And you know, in my background, I know everything. I know all the truth about what’s going on. I also know that I don’t wanna have to take up a and make the nurses more exhausted when there’s a pandemic going on. But I was like, I have to. So I go and I go in and they see me right away. They admit me right away. And I tell ’em they my symptoms and exactly what bunny said. They were like, they didn’t say this, but they’re like, you’re you have a stroke. We need to do a CT scan on you immediately. So they take me back, they run a CT scan on my brain and they’re like, yeah, your CT scan is really abnormal. It’s showing a ton of swelling in your brain. We’re gonna need to do an and I’m like, okay, perfect.

Natalee: (17:26)
I got what I wanted, but also yikes, I, this whole time, because my husband, he can’t go back with me because of, so I just in there by myself and you know, I’m just hanging out. I’m trying to update my husband on everything that’s going on. I’m you know, trying to be in this area with my mask. And I hear people around me that are sick and I’m just, you know, my empathy. I’m like so worried about everything that’s happening. Like at one point they literally were going to, they were rolling me back to get an MRI and I’m like, oh I can walk. It’s okay. They’re like, you have to, you have to be in this wheelchair. If you fall, we will be sued forever, sit down and just be quiet. So, you know, but anyways, so we go, we get my MRI. And so the first MRI they gave me was just of my brain. So they get my MRI of my brain. I come back and I’m just, you know, rusting relaxing. And then the fact, the fact that I knew was gonna be serious is they roll in a like a screen for a teleconference, with a neurologist. So mind you again, I’m by myself. And I said, before we do anything, I need to at least call my husband. So he’s on the phone with me. Yeah. So, my neurologist, he’s really great. There’s not a lot of neurologists in New Mexico. So they had to do like what’s the word where you have to go outside of the state for this. So they call him and he comes on the screen and he.

Bunny: (19:01)
Well, they just had to do a consult with somebody else, right?

Natalee: (19:04)
Yes, exactly. A consult to be like, we need a neurologist to look at this and tell her what’s going on because we don’t know, this is not good, whatever it is, please tell her for us type of situation. So this whole screen comes on super kind. Neurologist dude basically gives me my Ms. Diagnosis from the ER, while I’m in the ER bed with my husband on the phone to tell me that I have Ms. And that they need to keep me overnight for at least five nights to do more imaging and also to put me on very intense steroids, cuz the amount of swelling in my brain was like through the roof. Yeah. So then I’m there and I’m like with this kind nurse who’s like, and I think I’m in shock. You know what I mean? Like I’m in shock, but I’m also like this weird kind of piece cuz I kind of thought I had this, but I didn’t think it was gonna be like this. Do you know what I mean? So she’s there with me and she’s trying to console me and I’m like by myself and I’m like, oh my gosh. So yeah, it was crazy. And then it kind of just got crazier throughout the time. So they rolled me up and this is, this is dark humor, which is oh yes, yes.

Bunny: (20:29)
I just wanted, I mean that’s, I mean, I can’t imagine how that was for you. And you had a, a bit of an inkling because your half sister was also diagnosed with Ms. But can you, you know, just for people who may not have a knowledge about what Ms is, what the condition means and I know your background is in science, so, so can you, I mean, if we’re talking, if we have a listener, who’s like, I don’t, I don’t even get it. I don’t even know what it, what causes it, what it means, what, you know, what part of your brain yeah. You know, what’s going on in your brain when you have MS. I had the same question. Cause I’m kind of one of those people .

Natalee: (21:17)
Yeah. And it’s one of those things too, where you don’t really think about it, right? It’s not something that you, it’s not a, a classic thing. Like it’s not like cancer where, you know, you know, people that have had that, that’s just more common. It’s extremely rare. So I think the best way to sum up with what multiple sclerosis is, is it’s literally a disease of your central nervous system. So not only your brain gets affected, but your optic nerves, your whole spine, you know, cause it’s a whole system, you know, here’s your brain. And then here’s your spine. Everything involved in that is gonna be affected by it. So basically how it works is you have everyone, as humans has, you know, a nervous system, it has nerves that make everything so easy. Like if you wanna move your toe right now, you can move it. And you don’t even think about it just because you have those neurons that are constantly sending messages to one another to make sure those things happen. So what Ms does, is it attacks the Mylan, which is a protective sheet that’s around your, your nerves. So when that happens, it makes it, so those messages can get altered or be delayed. So kind of my best way to kind of look at it is everyone’s had seen like a freight cord, like a cord that’s connected to a, a system up to an outlet and those are afraid. That’s kind of how a mess looks because you know, it messes up the, the signals to make sure the electric signals are moving to where they need to go. So that’s kind of how it works for people. And it’s, it’s very rare. Like if you Google it, it’s gonna say rare, but it still affects about two to 3 million people in the us. So it’s pretty serious.

Bunny: (23:04)
So it is… I mean, just so you know it is. I have several cousins who have big been diagnosed. I mean, I have huge family, huge family. So there, I do know people in my family, but it does. I mean, it seems that the medicine is getting, I hope more and more advanced. I mean, I know people who were diagnosed when I was a child and, and I, so I’m interested to know, when you were diagnosed, did you immediately start some regimen of treatment that started to make a difference?

Natalee: (23:43)
I love that question so much because I think immediately is a, not as immediately as I should have cause America healthcare system love it here. , it’s amazing. But, kind of a background story on that, cuz this is, this is also very dark humor, but kind of one of my favorite stories. So I go to the ER and one of my favorite parts is they roll me into a room that was literally quarantined off. I’m not even kidding. You guys. Like the whole area had like, you know, the white stuff with the caution tape, just quarantined off. And I’m like, this is fun here. But I got lucky that I got my own room that I didn’t have to pay for. It was amazing. But anyways, so they rolled me into that room and I’m just laying there, you know, resting, they put me on a very intense steroid to help the swelling. And you know, once I kind of come to my husband comes and sees me for a little bit, can’t stay with me, but sees me. And. I’m like the doctor’s like, you’re gonna have to stay here for at least six days. And I’m like, no, I’m not because I don’t have the money to stay here for at least six days. So, you know, I had to start advocating for myself and I say, I wanna talk to the neurologist that diagnosed me to see if I can take an oral steroid instead, you know, at home. So, you know, the, the doctor right away, he was like an internal medicine doctor. He’s like, oh, that’s not an option. And I’m like, oh, I work in science. That’s definitely an option. You could definitely give me an oral steroid. So anyways, I’m rambling. But anyways, so I get onto the video with the neurologist and he’s like, no, I totally get it. You know, stay here for one more, two more days to get the high dose of, you know, the steroid through IV. And then you can go home and I’ll give you steroids that way. But my favorite part was when he looked at me and said, wow, you are doing so much better than I thought you would be doing. Oh, thank you so much. And I think that that really you know, looking back on it now where it’s like, you should be a lot more disabled than you are. You should not be doing this well. So I think that really right away kind of got me thinking, oh, this is a lot more intense than I realized how sick I am. You know what I mean? Because by this point I had learned that I have about 15 to 20 lesions on my brain.

Natalee: (26:16)
Yeah. And I have about 12 to 15 lesions on my, cervical spine. At that point, I had already learned that and I was like, yeah, you’re right. I should be not doing this good. So we, we finally get discharged from the hospital and you know, the main thing is you need to seek, you know, help immediately basically is what they’re saying. Like finding neurologist immediately, blah blah. So my husband and I go into panic mode and we’re calling every person that we can, you know, the UNM neurology center, anything we can find on Google, that there is a neurologist to try and excuse me, to try and find somebody while I am. You know, they say, you need to see someone immediately because I think what you were saying, buddy is like, you need immediate treatment and we could not find anybody for at least, gosh, two months before I found my neurologist, it was about two months. And to be honest, the only reason I was able to find someone that quick is cuz my mom works for Loveless. And that’s where my neurologist is. She works as a scheduling person. So she was able to make sure I was on the wait list. So someone would call me, that’s the only reason why I saw someone so quickly, but same thing. As soon as I met my neurologist, he said the same thing, wow, you’re doing a lot better than what your MRIs are saying. You should be doing. Like I figured your husband would have to carry you in here and you would have to wear an eye patch right now. You know, it’s basically what he’s saying, because that is kinda the progression of MS. You know, it leads you to severe disability. I saw something really interesting about MS. That it is the number one non traumatic disabling disease. So I think that’s kind of, you know, in the sense of you didn’t get in a car accident and end up disabled, it’s a progressive illness and it’s not traumatic, mentally traumatic, but not physically traumatic. Do you know what I mean? So that’s kind of the hard part about that. So the thing about that is immediately, he was like, you need to get onto a DMT, which that’s a disease modifying treatment. So it’s not gonna cure me. It’s not going to do anything to make my Ms go away, but it helps it to be more stable. So I would say that also took a long time because I was in between jobs. We had to try and find insurance. I wasn’t working my husband, we didn’t have insurance through him. We had to go and find insurance to start getting these, these drugs. So right away when I first met my doctor, my neurologist, he was like, you need, these are your three options for your drug. I think you should really do this one because COVID is still very active. You know, all of these conversations we had. So I didn’t get that until September is when I started taking my, my drug. And yeah. And so I got diagnosed in, may saw my neurologist for the first time in July and then because of insurance and all of that, I didn’t start taking my drug that I desperately needed until September.

Johanna: (29:28)
Yeah. That’s so crazy. I mean, of course again, all I can think is like, yeah, America health system, like you said. Yeah. But it’s also crazy. It’s crazy to me to think as terrible as you were feeling, and you’re having all these bad symptoms and you know, and you’re, you know, debilitated in a way, and then the doctors are saying, that’s good. Like you’re doing better than they think. Like, that’s so scary to think, like you said, you should have been doing worse, but also thinking the way you’re feeling is actually, oh, that’s relatively good for someone with MS.

Natalee: (30:02)
Yeah.

Johanna: (30:02)
That’s, that’s crazy.

Natalee: (30:03)
Wild, right? Yeah. Finally, I think I was so delusional cuz I would say my flare lasted the flare plus all of the, you know, the diagnosis and everything, all being together that lasted for about three or four months. And I think that I was just so like delusional that I would say that and like humorously and finally my husband’s like, babe, stop saying that like that is not funny. Like it’s okay to bring it up, but you can’t say that every day. Like that’s really hard for, for him to hear, you know, things like that.

Bunny: (30:34)
Yeah. Well, but Natalee, don’t you? I mean, I don’t know. I don’t, you know, you and I have not been introduced before this, but wasn’t that a little bit of a defense mechanism for you that you, that you sort of mentally and emotionally needed to deflect? I mean, it’s so frightening. I mean, I know that we Johanna and I made jokes all the time about, you know, play the cancer card, you know, get outta that final because your mom’s got cancer because sometimes you can’t, if you get, if you think about it too seriously, you’ll just sit in the floor and cry. I don’t, I don’t know. But that is that how it was for you.

Natalee: (31:11)
That’s exactly how it was for me. For the first time in my life, I was so depressed and I did not know how to handle that. I have always been a very joyful person and to be depressed, I was, I was so scared cause I didn’t feel like myself and that scared me a lot. So yeah, it was a defense mechanism and I was yeah. Holding onto anything I could to just try and protect myself to do exactly like what you were saying, you know, whatever it was like, you know, I’d make me and my husband we’re full of dark humor. We’d make those jokes all the time. Not right away. But like now we’re like, well, we can get out of that barbecue just in case, you know, you’re you do What I mean, let do it too much. If we say I’m having a flare that I might, let’s just say like I need to rest, which is very true. But yeah, so we, dark humor has been the only way for us to, cope with this really intense, intense, very serious diagnosis.

Johanna: (32:15)
Mm-hmm well, and I do know from following you, and you know, being your friend and following you online, you do take such good care of yourself and you make it a priority. It seems from what I, what I can see that like, you make self-care a priority. So was that something, I mean, I know you might have done some of that before, but did that intensify obviously with your MS or like what, and what is your self-care and how has that kind of evolved?

Natalee: (32:44)
Yeah, I love that question. So I think, I think that, so my self-care, I think it definitely, has evolved and intensified because I can, I can’t do anything to stop my body from attacking itself. I can’t, I can take my infusions. So I get infusions every six weeks for my MS. And I can that’s it. I can’t stop my body from attacking itself besides doing that, but I can take care of myself in other ways, you know, I can make sure I I’m doing good things that make me feel good. You know, I’m spending time outside and I’m eating really good food that I like, and I’m sleeping a lot and I’m trying to remove or limit the amount of stress I let into my life. Because the one thing that I have learned from my previous flare up is stress is what really causes me to have a flare up. So I think those are things that I’m really trying to be sure that I, I can do that for my MS. I gave her a name. Her name is tingles because one of my symptoms is sometimes I’ll just feel really tingly in my feet. So again, a coping me mechanism, I give her a name to be like, Hey, you know, I see you. I know you’re scared. I can make you this really good food to help you, that kind of a self care thing. I love thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I think it helps me a lot. I know it sounds kind of crazy, but like you, you can kind of get it, right. Like , mm-hmm so I think.

Johanna: (34:25)
It makes it kind of it’s own thing. Like it’s not like it’s Own thing.

Natalee: (34:28)
Yeah, yeah. It’s a part of me, but you’re gonna do your own thing and I’m gonna try and help you by, you know, being as healthy as I can and giving you medicine because medicine is important, but you’re, you’re your own thing. I can only try and help you. As much as I can.

Bunny: (34:47)
Natalee, I think that’s brilliant. I mean I wouldn’t have thought of that, but I think to, like Johanna said, your MS is some, it doesn’t define you. It’s just, it’s there. And you have to, you know, you have to take care of yourself and you have to deal with it, but you don’t have to let it be the central piece of your life. It’s. And so I think by almost giving it, it’s giving your, giving your Ms. Its own name and speaking to it and kind of takes the power away. When you said that it gave kind of gave me goosebumps because I thought what a smart thing to do for somebody who is so young and so new to this disease. And hang on. If I say the wrong, if calling in a disease is the wrong thing, you tell me…

Natalee: (35:42)
That’s right. Wrong list. That’s it’s a disease. It is no you’re right.

Bunny: (35:47)
So I just had, we’ve had a previous guest of Tania Katan and she’s my writing coach. And she, last week we went through this intensive and she made me create a list. And I thought this was, was kind of brilliant. She made me create a list. My don’t do list, like what I don’t want. And she’s, and it’s also in a book that she wrote, she talks about it, but I thought how it sounds like you’re doing this, but she created this list of things you don’t wanna do. You know, you don’t wanna overextend yourself. You don’t wanna agree to things that you don’t wanna do. I mean and the cool thing is you’re you, it’s not cool that you were diagnosed, but it’s cool that you’ve already learned how to say no to things that are not essential in your life. And so, and she said, create your don’t do list and make a copy and burn at least one of them. And say, these things are not gonna exist in my life anymore. I’m not gonna do stuff that SAPs my energy. I’m not going to eat stuff that makes me feel bad. I’m not going to make choices. That aren’t the best choice for me. And it sounds like you’re doing that. Am I right?

Natalee: (37:00)
Yes. That’s exactly what I’m doing. You gotta tell me about that book. Give me the name so I can read it. . That is what I’m trying to do. And I think that, that I have to give a lot of credit to my sweet husband, because he has tried to help me start creating boundaries in my life. When we first started ma started dating because I have always been a yes person, rather it be with my friends, with my family, with my job. Sure. I can work those extra hours knowing I can’t, I’ve always been a positive person. And my husband for a while now has been really great at trying to help me set up boundaries. So I think that he has been my my everything, and I think it would’ve been a lot harder for me to start setting up those boundaries with my MS if I didn’t have, because I’ve been working on trying, doing, doing that before I got diagnosed. But I think that’s exactly what you’re saying is my, my, myself and my body means so much to me and my health. And I can’t do a lot for it, but I can make a list of things I’m gonna say no to no, I’m not working over 40 hours a week. No, I’m not going to do this activity. I don’t want to do it. And it’s given me a lot of power in my MS. That I think is one of the most important things that you have to have with Ms. You have to have that power and that agency over yourself in your life, because there’s a lot of things you don’t have control over tomorrow morning. I can wake up and I could have trouble walking and I might have to go to the yard. We don’t know. So I think that trying to have those little things that you can have control over your life is so important for any chronic illness and any anybody that is healthy also, you know,

Johanna: (38:43)
Mm-hmm, that, I love hearing about, you know, how Corey is such a big support to you, your husband. And that was kind of, one of my other questions is you know, to tell us about your support system. I know like your family’s there in Albuquerque too. And has, has that having them and your husband there played a big role in kind of helping you get through, you know, the initial this first year of your diagnosis. Sure.

Natalee: (39:09)
That’s such a good question. So I think for me one of my defense mechanisms for me was like, everybody leave me now. I’m gonna be a burden. Don’t talk to me, leave me, Corey, leave New Mexico, get out of here, leave me here, die. You know what I mean? Just lose my mind over that. So that was really hard in the beginning, but I was able to flip that switch by reaching out to people on social media. I have made so many friends that have MS all around the world, like people in Australia, people in Germany, just to not be alone in my illness, because I felt so alone because I couldn’t get a doctor. I didn’t even know if I was gonna be able to work. I didn’t know if I was gonna be able to have insurance, all of these things.

Natalee: (39:57)
So I reached out to community and I shared my story on, on Instagram and my community blew up. Like it got to the point to where I had so many people, rather it be my sweet sorority sisters that decided to make what’s called pod squads for me, where they would come alongside me for each infusion and send me a gift or give us money for food, or even that going back to other things, you know, my, I talked about that center for courageous kids. I had people that I worked with years ago that came alongside me and just would send me cars, our encouragement, our gifts, and having that community was essential for my health and for the beginning of my diagnosis, because I had to force myself to not let myself feel like a burden and not share my story. And if I, if I didn’t do those things, I honestly don’t know where I would be today. If I would have shared my story and let people come along side me.

Bunny: (40:58)
I think, you know, Brene Brown talks all the time about vulnerability, but even before I knew who she was, I made a choice when I was diagnosed with cancer to just tell everybody, you know, some people want, some people feel a need to keep, to stay really quiet about whatever their health issues are. But I do think there is real power in sharing and Johanna and I both learned that it was when we got in a community of other people when we got in an advocacy community of other people who had the same diagnosis. It’s I gotta tell you, it’s kind of like naming, you know, naming your Ms. It’s meeting. Other people kind of takes the power away and it makes you feel like, wow, I’m, I’m not crazy. I’m I’m okay. I’m gonna survive. These other people are also alive. I it’s, there’s so much power in that and good for you that you’ve shared it. And that you’ve made this part of your story online, cuz I you’re, you’re helping people that you don’t even know about.

Natalee: (42:05)
Thank you. I really appreciate you saying that. And I think that, both of those things combined for me, it kind of started off as, as a thing of like, I have to do this. Cause if not, I’m gonna be so depressed and I, I don’t know what will happen, you know what I mean? But it was also a thing of like, why am I hiding that this is no reason to, to hide what’s going on? And I want to be able to help people. I wanna be able to other people with chronic illness to see this and reach out to me if you want, you know, cause my background, as I told you before, was helping kids that are really, really sick and that community is, was so important. So I didn’t really have to go through this thing of, well, I don’t know if I should tell these people or not, because I’ve seen the power of community. I’ve seen the power of community coming together and loving these people that are going through really hard things. If there’s so much power in it.

Johanna: (43:00)
Yeah. That’s, I love that. And I know, that that’s, you know, happening in real time. I know even this morning I saw, you said that somebody has reached out to you and you know, that they were recently diagnosed and you know, you’ve inspired them and, and they know that they could come to you and ask questions and talk about it so

Bunny: (43:20)
Well, yeah, it’s amazing. And what is the quote, Johanna read the quote that you sent me that about community. I I’m sorry, I’m trying to get it on my phone and I can’t but it’s something that Natalee had put, oh, that chronic illness is a full time job. It’s a community action, a way of life it’s carrying on it’s enduring and it is unendurable. I, I mean, it is a full time job, but it is a community.

Natalee: (43:49)
Awesome. It is. And that’s the only way it will work. I mean, it really is. One of my other favorite things. So, I met community through, so when I first got diagnosed, I was like, I need a book. like, I need something to read. Oh my gosh. So I went to Barnes and Noble and I got, I just went to the section of like, what is it like health and wellness or like, whatever it is. And I just looked for books. So I found, let me pull it out to make sure I don’t get the name wrong. So the name of the book is what doesn’t kill you. And the, honestly the artwork is what got me on the book. Cause I was like, that’s a beautiful artwork and I’m happy to get this book. So I read this book and it’s all about a life of chronic illness lessons from a body in re result. And it’s from someone named Tessa Miller. And that’s the first book I read when I got diagnosed and it’s about Crohn’s disease. And I literally, I was like, I’m gonna find this person on Instagram. I’m a stalker until she becomes my friend. So I did that and it worked, I don’t recommend that for everybody because you might might and not be a good situation, but she’s, she became my friend. Like she, we, we text and she is a part of my community. Haven’t met the girl once, but I read her story and I know what she’s going through. And she knows what I’m going through because I shared my story and we became friends, not the same illness have never met, but that community is so important and so crucial. And I know that’s hard for people, right? Like, especially if you’re, I’m very extroverted, but I’m also leading into being an introvert because it’s a lot easier shout out to my husband again For letting me know that’s okay. I also have a very wonderful, beautiful family. That’s full of extroverts. So, you know, you can see the dynamics there, but being able to just reach out is so important and so needed. And I love that I’m able to help people, you know, Adriana, what you were saying about the story about someone that is going through their own illness right now, this person literally got onto Instagram just to reach out to me to say, Hey, I feel alone. And I feel scared. Please come alongside me. And I would do that for anybody. And I’m so glad that she reached out to me because that was one of the other main reasons why I shared my story was so people didn’t feel alone because I felt alone in that hospital room, by myself in the middle of a pandemic. And I was laying there without my husband, you know, just being able to text him. So that’s why I started immediately being like, Hey, I’m really sick. I need you guys to let me know that I am not alone.

Bunny: (46:39)
Well, we talk all the time on our, on the podcast about gratitude. And I, I mean, just spending this little bit of time with you, it’s really clear to me that you’re a very positive person, but has, has do you feel like that’s had a, an impact on how the disease treats your body and how you treat it? I’m just kind of curious. Yeah.

Natalee: (47:03)
I think that’s such a good question. I haven’t thought about it a ton, but I also asked some friends on, Instagram, you know, Hey, remind me, like, be sure, you know, tell me, be sure you bring this up on the podcast. And one of my friends did bring that up kind of about, you know, talk about how you’ve lived in your life and how you’re defying odds. Like two neurologists told you, you’re doing way better than you should be doing. And I think gratitude is a big part of that, to be honest. I’ve always been a really mindful, thankful person. And even in the smallest ways, you know, it doesn’t matter what it is. I’m thankful that I, especially now after everything that has happened during a pandemic, all of the loss and the grief and the just terribleness I think it’s made a life full of gratitude for me be even more, just larger little things. I’m grateful that I can drink water and I can drink coffee and that I feel safe where I live and that I have love in my life. And I think that those things really alter I don’t know, I don’t have the science behind it, but I think it really alters your brain chemistry. And I think it alters everything in your life to really be able to live fulfilled even with the chronic illness.

Bunny: (48:31)
Well, there is science behind it, so perfect. I mean just, you know… Yeah, we, yeah, we, we luckily, it’s, I mean, we’re not the experts, but we’ve had some experts on the, on the podcast and it’s really clear that people who I mean, even if, even if you’re not in the midst of a chronic illness it change, it does change your neural pathways every time you think about every, every time you’re mindful, first of all. And then every time you think about something that you’re gratitude, you’re grateful for. So, you’re doing all the right stuff, but I’m, you know, one of the questions that Johanna had written down that I was really interested in is whether you had found that there were all these images on, in like in media about MS. That were untrue. I’m curious. And I’d like to hear, you know, like what, what’s the real truth about having MS.

Natalee: (49:40)
Sure. I think that’s a really good one. So this is actually one of my favorite things. When I first started, you know, trying to find community and I used all these hashtags, like chronic illness, visible illness, you know, all these, one of the most hilarious things that I found was people will actively try and pry on people that are weak. And I saw so many people sit trying to promote like a herbal medicine or something that not only will it cure your Ms. It will cure your cancer and your herpes and your HIV all in one pill. That’s probably the first thing that I saw in me and my husband. It got to the point to where, like, you know, I would actively block them, report them, all this stuff. Cause I felt so bad for people that maybe don’t have a science background are so scared that they’re like, I’m gonna send $700 to this random person to get a placebo pill. I think that was the first myth that I really saw a lot of was thinking that there was a cure for Ms. There was not a cure for Ms. And I’m heavily a heavy believer in science. I love science. I work in science. Maybe one day there will be a cure. And I hope that I can help that whether it be in a clinical trial or maybe I’ll work in the lab that does Ms. There’s not a cure for Ms. And I think that is one of the, the myths that can be shown. And I think that also, that’s one of the hopes that can be shown, which I’m a hopeful person. So I’m not trying to tell anybody what they’re doing is wrong with their Ms. Ms. Affects everybody completely differently. I am this sick and I’m able to walk and work and talk and see and do all of these things. Other people can’t do that. Some people can’t do those things. So I think that it’s the biggest myth that I worry about. Like I said, people who don’t have, you know, that are really weak are really don’t have a science background that there is a cure for it, cuz there’s not a cure for it at this time.

Bunny: (52:02)
And yet you can live a really full, productive, happy life. I mean, I have a cousin who is my age and she was diagnosed when she was 35. And I have to tell you, she’s one of the happiest people I know in the world. And so, you know, she’s just, you know, lived this life with some medication. I think, I don’t know daily. I honestly don’t know what it’s maybe…

Natalee: (52:29)
Cuz there’s so many different drugs. So like mine, I take mine every six weeks in infusion, but the drug I’m on a lot of people get the same drug every four weeks. But my neurologist does every six weeks just to kind of mitigate all of the very scary, you know, side effects or risk factors, but there’s so many drugs. Yeah. I have really one of my favorite coworkers. She also has a mess and she has to do a shot three times a week. So there’s all these different things and she is also one of the most happy, most wonderful people I’ve ever met.

Bunny: (53:01)
Well, so do you think that, that that’s been part of the, I mean, is, do you think your life would be the same today? If you had not had this diagnosis, I mean, is there tell me how life has changed for you other than you’re on this medication every six weeks?

Natalee: (53:20)
Yeah. I think that that’s a really good question. I think my life has changed a lot because of it. Again, I wanna go back to the gratitude thing that you were saying just because I am a super loved person. I am a super supportive person. I’m able to walk, I’m able to do all these things with my MS. It’s easy for me to be grateful. You know what I mean? And I think I just wanna talk to people that don’t have that that their health is really bad or they don’t have a really loving support system. You know, family, a husband. I think it’s hard to find those ways to be grateful. It’s easy for me to find ways to be grateful. But I think for me just to go back to what I was saying about being grateful, if you don’t have those things, you just have to find them, you have to work a lot harder to find them, but it’s so, so, so fulfilling when you do find those things because I, cause it does change your life 100%. So I think for me in terms of how it’s changed my everyday, I think that I have been even more grateful because I’m on this drug that is helping me. I don’t, I didn’t know if I would be able to work. I went through a really dark time with my husband. You know, just being the main breadwinner, whatever that means for the household. He works, he does a great job, but you know, through my job, we have insurance and a steady income. I was so afraid that I wouldn’t be able to work. I wouldn’t be able to do all of these things in my life, but I have found that I’ve been really fortunate and really blessed that I’m still able to do those things. And I think it is because of the drug that I’m getting. But I also think that I have learned how to slow down a lot more in my life. I have learned how to ask for help a lot more in my life. I have learned to rely on people and not be as independent as I’ve always been like literally, always like since I was two. So I think that has given me a lot of really good lessons in how to slow down and how to listen to my body and how to be like, oh, Nope, don’t do that. You need to go to sleep. Nope. Don’t do that. Your body does not like that. And also being patient and more graceful with myself. One of the symptoms that I have not always, but is pretty intense is, cognitive things. So I get brain fog. So like trying to like, remember how to say something at any given time, I’ll be like, babe, what’s that word? You know, just start snapping.

Natalee: (56:00)
And he’s like, we weren’t even talking. I don’t even know what we’re talking about. Come on, you know, it, come on. You know, so just trying to have more grace with myself and being like, this is just your new normal. Yeah. And you’re still yourself, but you, this is just your new normal, you can still live, you can still laugh and you can still, you know, be who you are. And I think that it’s taken a year for me to really feel that way. And some advice I’ve gotten from other people with MS is you kind of figure it out. You’re like, oh, this is great. I can do this. This is no problem. Then you have a relapse and then you’re sick than you were before. And you have to, you have to learn how to do it again. But I think that I have been really lucky in learning how to do it in the way I have in a very dark time on the planet. yeah. So hopefully whatever comes will be, I’ll be able to handle it. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm ,

Johanna: (57:00)
Mm-hmm yeah. Well, Natalee, I mean, you’re such an inspiration, I think I’m so happy that I know you and that you’re, and I’m so happy that you’re sharing your story because I think it’s gonna help people, obviously it already is helping people, but whether you have a chronic illness or you just, or not, or you’re just kind of going through a hard time, I think your positivity, but also being real is, is just what we need in the world.

Natalee: (57:29)
Thank you. I appreciate that. And I appreciate you saying, you know, not just the positivity, but being real, like mm-hmm, I cry all the time. Like I I’m super positive, but there might be a day where I’m at work and I have to go to my car and I have to cry because what I’m going through is so real and so scary. And I think that’s also a really big part about gratitude too. You know, having a healthy level of gratitude, not being grateful all the time. Like if you need to go cry and have a breakdown and not be so grateful this week, you could do that too.

Johanna: (57:57)
I mean Mm-hmm, be, yeah. You’re honest about it. Yeah.

Natalee: (58:00)
I try to be, because I just think that’s important because I don’t. Yeah. I don’t want people to have to hide who there are in a chronic illness or just in life, you know, always, always being who you are. And I think that’s really important because, who are you hiding from? Who are you? You know, not being honest for, you know, mm-hmm

Bunny: (58:22)
Well, Natalee I’m so grateful that you chose to, to spend this hour with us on this weekend. That’s a pretty momentous. I mean, you’re you, tomorrow is your what’d you call it your diagnosis anniversary. diagnosis, anniversary.

Natalee: (58:39)
Cause I was like, anniversary’s too happy.

Bunny: (58:42)
And well, and it’s a mixed bag. I mean, you would be great if you had not been diagnosed with this chronic illness, it’d be great if I hadn’t gotten cancer and Johanna hadn’t deal had to deal with that, but boy has it. I mean, it just has created this whole different path in your life. That you’re, when you said I’ve learned how to ask people for help. I’ve learned how to give myself grace. I thought that that is a whole nother hour that we could talk about. And you’ve learned that at this age. So I’m, I mean, I celebrate you. I know that it’s not an, it’s not a happy anniversary and yet it is because you are… I mean, you’re just, you’re just becoming more of who you are at such a young age. So I celebrate you. Thank you so much for joining us and being a part of this. Can we talk to you again next year at this time?

Natalee: (59:36)
Yes, please. You two are fantastic. And what you’re doing here, I think is so important at all times, but especially now with us still being in a pandemic and just everything that’s happening happening on the planet is just really heavy and hard in a lot of grief. And I just think what you’re doing is so important for people to, to hear stories and to be inspired by people. If it’s not me, anybody, all of these other people that you’re interviewing, I think it’s so crucial. Thank you.

Bunny: (01:00:11)
Well, thanks For being a part of that.

Natalee: (01:00:13)
Yeah.

Bunny: (01:00:14)
That’s all we’ve got today friends. I wanna thank you for joining the life saving gratitude podcast with your host Bunny Terry that’s me and my producer and assistant Johanna Medina. We feel like we’re in the business of sharing the stories that save us and we hope you’ll share as well by letting your friends and family know about the podcast follow and like us wherever you listed. And please take the time to leave a review, whether it’s a stellar comment or a suggestion, we are open to suggestions all the time. Also follow us on Instagram at live saving gratitude pod. You can also follow me personally at Bunny Terry, Santa Fe. You can sign up at my website, bunnyterry.com to receive weekly emails about how to become the ultimate gratitude nerd. Thanks so much for checking in.

Bunny: Hi everyone. This is Bunny with the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. Just in case you don’t know me, I am a stage four colon cancer survivor and the author of Lifesaving Gratitude, which is a book about how gratitude helped me kick cancer’s ass. 

Today we’re going to talk to a special guest about how marketing and marketers can use gratitude to create business and connections with clients and also for themselves to create a really positive way to do their job. But first, I just want to thank you for being here and ask that you download the podcast if you’d like. And certainly subscribe wherever you listen to other podcasts. But enough about me and enough about the podcast. 

I want to introduce you to my special guest, who’s also a friend. Craig Cunningham is currently a realtor with Keller Williams, Santa Fe. And that’s how I met him. However, this is a recent career for him and he was, and correct me if I mispronounce the word, but you were a hotelier. Is that the way to say that?

Craig: Yes. 

Bunny: Yes. He’s spent 30 years in corporate sales and marketing. He’s traveled extensively. I’m going to let him tell you all the places that he’s been to, but he is the founder and principal of Cunningham + Colleagues marketing consultants. He was in the past the VP of marketing and quality for Seaport Hotels and World Centers and the VP of marketing for Core North America. So welcome Craig Cunningham.

Craig: Thanks so much for having me on your podcast.

Bunny: I’m excited. I know you have some great tips for all of our listeners. When I think about these podcasts, I always think about the people that are going to want the information we’re offering. I mean, we’re here to help people and we’re here to figure out how gratitude can make everyone’s life not just easier and simpler, but also fuller. So why don’t you start, Greg? Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us how in the world you ended up in this completely different career? And yet the truth is we’re still just marketers first and realtors, second. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell our listeners.

Craig: Yeah. So, as you said, I’ve been in marketing and sales for more than 30 years. I actually started off with an advertising and PR agency and then had the good fortune to be hired by my hotel client at the time, Wyndham hotels. At that time it was a North American chain and it’s now international. 

But from then on, I was in the hotel business. It’s definitely a career where if you are not focused on client service and the whole concept of gratitude, you’re not going to be successful. I always thought of our job as just surprising and delighting our guests and making them feel like they chose the right hotel to be with. And so it was always about waking up every day and saying, “What can I do to make somebody’s day and to give them a great experience?” And, of course, to do this you have to be grateful because they opted to choose your hotel over the million other choices that they had. 

So when I retired from the hotel business two years ago, I was trying to figure out what else I wanted to do with my life. I started doing more volunteering. I volunteer with Kitchen Angels here in Santa Fe to deliver meals to people who are not able to leave their homes. But I also started thinking of whether I wanted to do something else from a professional standpoint and the real estate business seemed like a natural extension, because it’s all about client service. You have to figure out ways to make people feel like they’ve made the right choice in working with you. So it’s all about being grateful every day and figuring out what can I do to help them today. How else can I extend what I’m doing for them in a way that they will appreciate and know that I appreciate them. So that’s what it’s really all about, because of course they could work with a million other other people

Bunny: Right. And let’s talk for just a second. Don’t you think that marketing has changed over the 30 years that you’ve been doing this? I mean, it seems to me that when we were kids, which was back before the crust cooled, we were sort of marketed at. Just talk for a minute about how marketing is different now than it was 10 years ago or 30 years ago.

Craig: It’s funny, because I was going to say the exact same thing. Back in the day, you were running a TV ad or a radio spot or a print ad and it was passive in that you just presented the information, unless you were direct sales. But really with the advent of so much digital media, you are instantly able to forge a relationship with customers through social media, through Facebook, Instagram, where you’re having a dialogue with them from the very beginning. This allows you to work in a much more personal way and to be able to find out much more quickly how you can serve those people. 

So I think it’s changed completely. Before you just sort of put it out there into the ether and hope that something worked, and now you’re able to engage. And I’ve found that so much in real estate where I’m getting emails from folks and then it evolves from the email into a phone call or a zoom call or something like that instantly. I think that’s so much better for both people. Especially for somebody like me who wants to find ways to engage with people and to be of service to them, it makes it a lot easier and more rewarding.

Bunny: I just think about the ways that I connect with my clients. It’s as if you’re somehow conveying to those people that you’re grateful that they showed up.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, my whole thought is that it’s not a transaction, it’s a relationship. And that relationship can be multifaceted. Once you’ve sold them a house or sold their house, I like to think that we’ve formed a friendship and a bond and that relationship is going to continue. And honestly, I don’t even care if I ever get another piece of business for them. Now think of them as friends. I want to have them to my house for dinner or go have coffee or something like that. 

I think that kind of thing that makes a difference for people in wanting to work with me.  It’s coming from a position of wanting to be of service to them and wanting to make them happy and finding the right solution for them. I’m working with some first-time-buyers right now and I kind of feel like they’re my kids. It’s about, okay, how can I really help them with this? And they’re grateful for the counsel I’m able to give to them, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to work with them. So it’s very rewarding. I think if you approach business relationships in the same way as you would with your friends, it’s a win-win situation for everybody.

Bunny: Well, talking about those first-time home buyers, I mean, that’s one of my favorite deals. You never make the most money from those transactions, but I’m so grateful to be reminded that we are providing the American dream when we’re selling real estate. Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s my favorite experience.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, for somebody to have their first home and to be excited about how they’re going to decorate it and what they’re going to do. And with this young couple, seeing them excited when they see a house brings out all my empathy and makes me want to really go the extra mile for them to make sure they find the right house at the right price for them. And then I just never want to stop. So then it’s like, “Okay, now I’m going to find this person for you to do the plumbing, and I’m going to find this person, etc, and I’ll be with you with you  to help explain things.” I just want to really continue to be of service.

Bunny: I talk a lot, especially on my blog, about Judy Camp, who was one of my first real estate mentors. She was a great friend and Linda Gammons partner for a long time before she passed away. But Judy Camp always says, “If you come from contribution, you can’t help but be successful.”

Craig: Yeah. I mean, just as I was saying, you can’t think of it as a transaction. I think, coming from contribution, how can I help you? How can I make this a better experience? How can I make this work? Because, especially in a real estate transaction, it can be stressful. It’s the biggest financial transaction for the majority of us. So how do you take the burden and the pressure away from them and sort of guide them through the process? I just think the main thing is that it’s much more fun, whether you’re doing volunteer work or in business, to wake up every day and figure out how I could make it fun for somebody else. Because then it’s fun for you and it gets you excited and passionate about what you’re doing.

Bunny: Well, it sounds like our big “why’s” are really similar. I certainly don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but it sounds like your big “why” is just to make the life of the people you come in contact with better.

Craig: Yeah. Of course making money is nice, but there are lots of ways to make money. It’s more about whether you are getting energy from it. And I think you really get energy when you’re working with someone and trying to figure out how you can help them, how you can make their day better, how you can make the service that you’re providing better. And also just doing things that saying, “What about if I do X, Y, Z?” and they’re  like, “Oh, you’ll do that for me?” And I’m like, “Of course.”

I have another set of clients where the transaction was fairly complicated and we were looking at lots of properties. Coming from a corporate background, I love to do spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations—things like that. And so after about the third thing we had to do, they’re like, “Oh, how are we going to organize all these bids?”  And then one of the guys said to the other guy, “Well, Craig’s going to do a spreadsheet for us. He’s probably already got it done.” So it’s that kind of thing where you’re looking for ways to make their experience better.

Bunny: So this is always a funny question for me to ask, because I have such a loose gratitude practice other than just waking up in the morning and saying, “thank you, thank you, thank you,” and then writing things down, but do you have a practice that you follow that helps you both in your business and your personal life?

Craig: Well, since I came into real estate with Keller Williams, which focuses a lot on being servant leaders and helping people, I’ve gotten into the habit of writing three things I’m grateful for that day. It could be that it’s a beautiful day or a dog or my partner or the opportunity to help somebody or the coffee’s really good that day, but waking up and appreciating what you have in your life is a good way to get in a good mindset for the rest of it.

Bunny: Oh, absolutely. Something I always say is that we kind of rewire our brains. We do. We create new neural pathways every time we say that we’re grateful. So in terms of nuts and bolts, is there a way that you let your clients know? I mean, I find that there are a lot of young people, young entrepreneurs or people who are new to business, who forget how to tell their clients how they’re grateful for them, even if it’s a line in an email. Do you have something that you do specifically over and over?

Craig: I think for me, it’s maybe more in the actions. I think of “This is really going to be helpful if I do this or if I provide this information.” I think it’s always in my voice and the way that I write. I try to always communicate openly and in a friendly and conversational manner. But then I also think “It would be really cool and really helpful if I did X , Y , Z.” I created a whole PowerPoint just on the neighborhoods in Santa Fe, because if you’re out of town it gets confusing. And that came out of a client saying, “Well, I don’t really know the neighborhoods.” And I thought that this would be a great tool for them. So I created it and then I was able to use it with others. 

So I think for me, maybe it’s sort of on the fly. I used to say in the hotel hotel business, “How can I make this a wow experience?” Because the other way to think about it is that every relationship is with people. When you’re in a service business you’re really in the business of creating memories. You can create good memories or you can create bad memory and it’s much more fun to create good memories.

Bunny: And that just comes from a spirit of generosity. I mean, you obviously want this to be the best real estate experience they’ve ever had.

Craig: Right. Right. I’m very grateful for the people that have helped me along the way. I’ve been very fortunate in my career to always work for people who were concerned about my career development and my personal development and became dear friends. And I’ve had a couple of bosses that have hired me twice in two different jobs. So I’m always grateful for the things that other people have done for me. 

So then I want to pay it forward. When I came to Keller Williams and I was introduced to the team here, there was so much openness and willingness to share and help and support. It has been fantastic. What strikes me the most is how grateful I am for what other people have done for me. And how do I pay that back?

Bunny: I mean, this is not a podcast to plug Keller Williams. It’s really more to talk about mindset, but the place where I learned it was sitting in that training room and learning that my mindset was the secret sauce. I mean, that’s the success piece, right?

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s not just about production and everything. It’s about weight and having a sense of gratitude and contribution and a sense of abundance. And I don’t mean that in a monetary way. It could be abundance in your health or your friends or all of that kind of stuff. And I think back to you. Your experience with cancer was far worse than mine, but I did have prostate cancer about nine years ago. Everyone I worked with during that entire time when I was going for radiation every day for 10 weeks was so supportive. And then on the last day of radiation, there was this very important meeting, and everyone knew it was my last day.My whole team had a celebration for me on my last day. That was turning something that was obviously a challenging situation into something where I knew they really cared about me and supported me.

Bunny: Wow. I’m interested to hear how your mindset was in the middle of that? 

Craig: I’m just by nature, an optimistic person. So even though it was scary, I felt like I was in good hands from a medical standpoint and I just felt like I was gonna beat it. I had done the education that I needed to and then it was really about having a positive mindset. 

This is probably too much information, but I’ll say it anyway. You’re doing the radiation stripped down to your boxer shorts. And so I jokingly put this Facebook thing about the fact that I needed a new pair of boxer shorts for every day. And people started sending me underwear—different pairs of boxer shorts for every day. So while I was sitting there in the big machine, where you’re sort of in there and it’s buzzing and scanning and all that kind of stuff, it got to be kind of a joke with the techs:  “Oh , what’s he going to be wearing today?”

Bunny: I love that.

Craig: That was a way to keep my spirits up. And also during that process, I really learned how to be very focused. I was in a waiting room with people that were going through, frankly, worse things than prostate cancer. Don’t get me wrong, prostate cancer is pretty serious. It is. People die from it. But I was seeing so many other people that were having a much more challenging time than I was. And we became a family. We all bonded together during that process, because we were all waiting, sometimes for an hour. So it’s things like that. And also things like the kitchen angels service, where it helps reboot you every day for how grateful you should be in your own life and grateful for the opportunity to help other people.

Bunny: Right. There are tons of people who do get what a gift it is. People who don’t even have a specific gratitude practice, but at least an attitude every day that you’re going to figure out something. I just wrote a blog post on limiting beliefs and one of the things that I wanted to convey is that we get to choose every single moment how we view the world. And maybe for somebody out there who’s brand new in business or who’s starting a new business. I just read a statistic that said that the entrepreneur demographics are changing. And now like 48% of new entrepreneurs are over 50. So hooray for the old people! 

But I know that there are people out there right now who are thinking, “Well, I’m not any good at marketing. I’m not any good at that piece of it. I can sell stuff, but I’m not good at the marketing stuff.” I’ve got to tell you, I’m married to a guy who doesn’t believe in self promotion because he came from a generation when you played down your assets, instead of being grateful for them and talking about them. So I’d love to hear what you have to say to somebody who has that limiting belief that they can’t market. And they can’t promote themselves.

Craig: You know, we could all market ourselves, and we do it every day in our interactions.  Whether we think of it as marketing or not, we’re marketing ourselves all day long in how we react and treat other people. The thought I had as you were talking about your husband thinking self-promotion sounds like a dirty word is that it doesn’t have to be you talking  about “me, me, me” and “I did this million dollars in revenue.” This is kind of a turnoff in some ways, because you’re talking about yourself. But if you’re talking about how you can help somebody else and how you can provide a good experience for them with your information and knowledge, you’re not talking about yourself in that context. You’re talking about how you can be of service. I think that’s a much easier way for a lot of people from a generation where we weren’t really supposed to be talking about ourselves.

Bunny: Well, it was pre-social media. Our face wasn’t out there. We just weren’t trained to tell people, “Here’s the reason you should hire me instead of the other person.”

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, now we’re all our own brands on social media. But I think that rather than saying to somebody, “Here’s why you should hire me versus somebody else,” you should just talk about how you can be of service in what you do in an authentic way. Then people are more likely to want to work with you, because you’re radiating a sense of positivity and an interest in them. And they’re not thinking that you just look at them as a transaction and then you’re onto the next person.

Bunny: I frequently use with my marketing coaching clients the example of a dinner party. If you went into a dinner party (and this is for people who are just beginning in whatever business they’re in, especially if they’re self-employed), you wouldn’t simply walk in, take your coat off and say, “Hey, I’m selling something, come and talk to me.” Right? I mean, that’s what you don’t want to do with marketing. You want to start by building a relationship. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Craig: I think it goes all the way back to Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. People do like to talk about themselves. And so the first thing is you should be listening. That was one of the first things I learned in marketing client service. You need to ask questions and learn from your clients. Focus on what they need, as opposed to talking about yourself. You really want to establish a dialogue with them about their wants and needs and hopes and fears and everything else. Then you can talk about how you can address them. But nobody wants to go in and all of a sudden have you sit down and say, “Here’s my PowerPoint about me and what I’ve done.” It should be more of establishing, from the very beginning, a relationship of openness with folks. Then, after hearing from them, you can say “Well, here’s how I think I can you and here are some ideas that I have that I could share with you.” So I think a key thing is really listening from the very beginning.

Bunny: I even found that to be helpful when I used to first go on listing appointments. I was so nervous that I would sit down and I would immediately try to book an appointment. You know, if you’re not in real estate, a listing appointment is just like sitting down with a prospective customer. I would be so nervous in the beginning and really coming from a place of scarcity where I thought, “If I don’t get this listing, I’m not sure I can pay the rent next month.” And if you’re coming from a place of scarcity, you’re likely to self-sabotage. But that’s such good advice because things changed when I finally learned how to sit back and listen: “I’m here to help you. Tell me what it is that you need. Talk to me.” It’s so powerful to give a client time to talk to you. And I think people forget to do that, right?

Craig: Yeah. And I think sometimes we do it because we’re afraid. What I’ve learned so much over the years in business working with people is that people are terrified of silence, so they will immediately start talking. If there’s a second of silence, you jump in and start babbling. Lord knows I do it. But if you just let somebody talk and let it sort of sit there for a second and not just try to be filling in all the time. It drives me crazy when people are doing that. It’s much better if you can have the client talk and then ask some more questions and then be warm and reflective about it. Back to the Dale Carnegie thing, I think one of his first points was if you’re at the dinner party, ask people about themselves. Most people do like to talk about themselves. So ask them and don’t just start talking about yourself. 

Bunny: I think that even people who would say, “I don’t like to talk about myself,” really do want somebody to ask them and listen to them.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s not just asking them to go on and on. It’s more meaningful questions about, for example, why they decided to move here. Just those kinds of questions that get them thinking. Growing up in materialistic Dallas, the joke was that the questions at a party were like, “Where do you live? What do you do? What do you drive?” And so it’s not questions like that. It’s asking them more about their life experience,

Bunny: You just brought me to another completely different point, which is for any realtors out there listening: I think it’s really important to convey to your clients how grateful you are for where you live. I mean, if our lifestyle is such a selling point, don’t you think you should share that?

Craig: Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, living in Santa Fe there’s so much beauty. I’m looking out my window right now at the beautiful blue sky. When I leave my house in the morning and I see the mountains, and then when I’m coming home at night and the sun is setting over the mountains and I see all the different colors and everything, it’s just breathtaking. It’s great to live in such a great and wonderful environment and in a place that is very spiritual, going back with the native Americans—respect for the earth and nature and all of those things—I think it does help center us more than a lot of other places.

Bunny: How do you convey that to your clients? I know you’re doing something really cool online that’s different from some other realtors.

Craig: Well, I’m not just posting on my Facebook page,” Hey, I just sold this house or just sold that house.” Well, that’s great. But I’m more talking about new experiences in Santa Fe: new restaurants, or a new place to go hiking, or something exciting that’s happening at one of the museums or things like that—enthusiastically talking about the experience of living in Santa Fe. And if down the road, by the way, you’re looking at this stuff and you decide you want to buy a house here, I would love to help you. But it’s more about conveying the reason why we all want to live here

Bunny: And tell us about your blog, because I think it’s amazing.

Craig: So I created this blog, which is called Santa Fe Scenes. It’s that same kind of thing where it’s just talking about having fun in Santa Fe. One of the things was, you know, we’ve got the old Santa Fe trail and we’ve got the old Pincus trail, but did you know that we had a Margarita trail and a Chocolate trail? Stuff like that. Just being whimsical about it and talking about some of the things are unique about the city and sharing my own passion for Santa Fe. I was very fortunate to be able to do a lot of international travel for my job. I was grateful for the opportunity that I was given to see places that I wouldn’t have seen otherwise from Bogota to Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro and Beijing and places like that. So I’ve always been enthusiastic about travel and now living in such a beautiful place like Santa Fe, I want to share that enthusiasm with people.

Bunny: And you’re getting some good feedback on that I bet, right?

Craig: Yes, I am. I’m getting good feedback on it. It’s been a wonderful thing to reconnect with friends who are saying, “Good for you, you old dog! You’re back out there trying something new.” Because whenever someone says, “Oh, you’re a new realtor,” I say, “Well, I’m an old new realtor. I’m 61 and I’m starting this for the first time.” But it’s been great from that perspective and the support that you get from your friends. Then people are saying, “Oh, well, I know somebody who might be interested in sending you that information.” I think that’s one of the positive things that social media has done where we’ve been able to reconnect with so many people that we might have completely lost touch with.

Bunny: Oh yeah. I did a post not very long ago about how grateful I was, and it was in the middle of all the fear over Facebook and Twitter. And I just said that it’s such a great platform for reconnecting with cousins that I haven’t seen since I was six. I mean, I just turned 60. I’m an old dog and this is a new trick for me, but I think that if you use it the right way, it’s a real gift. I also think there are so many realtors, like you said, who just post either pictures of houses that they have listed or their accomplishments. And I think they’re really missing an opportunity.

Craig: Yeah. Because then you’re just talking at someone. You’re not sharing information and excitement about things with them. People don’t want to look at that stuff. They want to look at things like the fact that there are like six great chocolate tiers in Santa Fe. And then the next time I’m in town, I want to go to each one of them. Or discovering an amazing new hiking trail or a beautiful image of a shop window or a piece of art or something like that. 

Bunny: Yeah, it’s so much better than “I just listed this house at 123 main street. Don’t you wish you owned it?” Exactly.

Craig: Exactly. I think more people would react to it. I’d really like to have some of that green chili chocolate over at The Chocolate Smith or whatever. It’s much more interesting than a picture of a kitchen that has granite countertops. Oh my goodness.

Bunny: And, you know, Craig, I found that people will call me and they’ll say, “Well, I’ve been following you on Facebook for two years. And I feel like you’re my best friend. I think you’d be the right person to show me around and help me find a house.” And I bet that’s happening to you too.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s funny, you mentioned that. One of the people I’ve been mentoring told me a story about how she posted a lovely picture of herself and then somebody called her and said, “I feel like I already know you because you just look like a nice person and I feel like I can trust you.” I think also that it’s our eyes and our smile and everything that conveys so much of what you’re talking about. If you have a spirit of gratitude and service and a sense of abundance, not scarcity, it shows in your face, your eyes, your smile, and your whole persona.

Bunny: Well, we’re going to have to wrap up here in a minute, but I would love to hear if you have just three great tips that you would give to somebody who feels kind of stuck in their marketing. It could be what you’ve learned in 30 years or in the last three days, whatever it is.

Craig: I think one is changing your question from “How do I market myself?” to “What can I do for this client?” or “What can I do that’s going to excite the people? How can I make them feel appreciated and valued?” And this can work in cases where you’re actually working one-on-one with a client or cases where you’re trying to figure out how to promote what you’re doing. How do I find ways to surprise and delight people? So I like to do that with social media buys, where you come up with quirky, little things to talk about that are authentically Santa Fe or a funny picture of my dog or something like that. You want to put a smile on people’s faces. And social media gives us so many opportunities to be able to do that in ways that we couldn’t before. So the main thing at the end of it is to put your client first, and then I think everything else will come from there.

Bunny: You’re absolutely right. I think as long as your passion is helping people, then success is just a natural by-product of that.

Craig: Exactly. People feel that energy and then they want to tell their friends about you.

Bunny: What I’ve found is that people want to be able to trust somebody, especially in this business where they’re making possibly the biggest purchase of their life.

Craig: Right? I’m thinking back to these younger clients. We were touring houses, and they were interested in one particular house and I was like, “No, I’m not going to let you buy this. This is not the right move.” And I think all of a sudden they’re like, “Wow, he really cares. He’s not just thinking ‘Tick tock, tick tock. We’ve seen three houses.’” This is not House Hunters International where there are the three properties and you have to buy one. So again, it’s not a transaction. It’s a journey. It’s a relationship.

Bunny: I think that’s the most important tip for somebody to take away. Whether you’re selling widgets or earrings or house cars or houses, this is not a transaction. It’s a relationship. We want people to trust you and come back over and over. I don’t know how you can love your job if you’re not doing it the way we’re doing it.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. And have fun with it. We get to meet interesting people all day long. We get to see things. We get to use our own creativity to express ourselves. I know there are people that are in jobs that don’t have that. But I also read things about  the janitor in an elementary school who takes real pride in what they do, and they are going to do the best job that they possibly can. So I think in almost everything, you can come at it with a mindset of “How can I make this a great experience for me and for others?”

Bunny: That’s great stuff. Tell us where people can find you and where they can find your blog.

Craig: Well, probably the most fun thing I’m doing is the Santa Fe Scenes blog. 

Bunny: Okay. And we’ll share that on the information page for the podcast. And then, of course, if people want to buy a house from you, they can find you through there?

Craig: Yeah. All my information is on there. So one stop shop.

Bunny: Craig, I’m so excited that you were here. This was fun. I think we could do it again.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Bunny: Because I think this is the place where people get stuck. People who are self-employed get stuck in this part. And so I think there’s a lot of stuff that we can talk about.  But I’m of course really grateful that you agreed to talk with us.

Craig: Oh, thanks. It’s been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. 

Bunny: And to everybody else, thanks for being here. This is once again, the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry. You are welcome to go to my website if you’d like to learn more about me and about buying my book, which is all about gratitude and how gratitude helped me kick stage four cancer’s ass. And we’d love to have you follow us and subscribe on spot Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks so much, Craig.

Craig: Thank you. Next time.