58. “A Girlfriend’s Guide” to Gratitude: Kim Hamer

Bunny: (00:10)
Hi there. Welcome to the life saving gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny, Terry, and I’m joined by my co-host and producer Johanna Medina. And this podcast that you’re about to hear completely blew me away. It was a special gift to get to talk with Kim Hamer. Sometimes people come to us through different channels and Kim was one of those people that we hadn’t been, um, acquainted with before, but we were both intrigued because she speaks to a topic that both Johanna and I are really that’s really near and dear to our heart. And that’s basically how to deal with somebody who has cancer. I loved talking to her. What do you, what’d you think Johanna?

Johanna: (01:03)
Yes, I know I loved Kim too. I feel like she was kind of like a kindred spirit, you know, and she just, she just gets it. I know that it’s her job and she’s an expert on well, our listeners will learn more about it, but an expert on you know, what to say and what not to say and how to approach people that are going through you know, a cancer diagnosis or someone in their family. But I just, I love talking to her and really this episode has some, I mean, she’s very practical. Like we love having those guests on that give great tips and things that our listeners can just walk away with and put into practice whether it’s, you know, like a mindfulness technique or what to say to your coworker who is just diagnosed with cancer. But I think it’s also beneficial for people, you know, whether it’s cancer or some other hardship they’re going through, if they just lost a loved one or you know, another, another illness or, you know, your friend that’s on maternity leave. Like if they need just really the message I think she’s trying to get across was like trying to make that connection with someone and not just, um, you know, giving the, the pat answer or . But yeah, she’s, I loved it and I’ve agree with what you always say too, is that we could have just talked and talked with her for hours. So

Bunny: (02:27)
What well, and she wrote that great book. It’s very practical called 100 acts of love, a girlfriend’s guide to loving your friend through cancer or loss. And I know that when I’ve talked to people and I say this in the podcast, but when other people get in touch with me after they’ve read the book, they say, wow, I learned so much about ways that I can help somebody that I love, because nobody in the world wants to hear from somebody they care about that they’ve been diagnosed with with cancer or that they’ve lost a loved one. And Kim is so good at saying, um, here’s a really smart thing you can do to help someone. And I don’t wanna give it away, but she’s all about coming from contribution. She understands the fears that we all have around those, those life issues. And she’s just, she’s fun to talk to. And we’re gonna, there’s, there’s obviously gonna be a link to her book, um, here on the podcast, but I’ve ordered it already because for, for all of my blogging about what not to say to a cancer patient, she’s really good at proactive ways that surprising and practical, proactive ways that you can help people in the tiniest ways. So I, this, this is gonna go down. I think in, in our records is one of our favorite podcasts and certainly one of the most practical.

Johanna: (03:57)
Definitely. I hope everybody enjoys it as much as we did and I can’t wait till we can get Kim back.

Bunny: (04:03)
Absolutely. So I’ll just say to everybody, thanks for checking in. Thanks for downloading for subscribing and for reviewing us because our listenership is, is that a word? Whatever it is, we’re growing every week. We’re, more and more people are reaching out and saying that the things that our guests are saying are helping to change their lives for the better. So we’re really glad you’re here. Enjoy this conversation with Kim Hamer.

Bunny: (04:35)
I am so excited. I say this every time don’t I Johanna, but, but I really, I mean, this is it’s crazy. It’s crazy. So I actually had had a moment last week where I thought, man, this podcast, it takes so much time and it takes resources and energy and should we keep doing it? And then I saw our guest to date. I saw Kim’s bio and I thought, well, I gotta talk to her. Holy macro. This is, um, Kim Hamer is a, she is a widow of somebody who had, um, cancer who did not survive. However, more important. Well, it’s not more importantly. I don’t even wanna place a value on any of that because it’s so difficult to lose somebody. She’s a mom of kids who were small when she lost her husband, but she is a, um, a consultant, a writer, somebody who is thank the Lord, teaching people, how to navigate the difficulty of having a friend or a loved one or somebody you care about, or an employee who is going through a cancer experience or a loss experience.

Bunny: (05:47)
And Kim, you didn’t know this because we’ve never met each other before this moment, but you didn’t know this, but I sometimes write blog posts about what not to say to cancer patients, because people feel so powerless. I don’t wanna assign anything other than they feel fearful. They feel powerless. They feel really, um, and, and vulnerable too, about what they should say. And they things that they should do for the people they care about who find themselves in this horrific situation. And you just took the bull by the horns and started writing and talking about it. And I’m like, thank you so much! So I’m gonna shut up for a minute and let you tell us your story and how you got to this place first, cuz I think stories save us and it’s really important for us to hear yours.

Kim: (06:40)
Well, thank you so much, Bunny. I really appreciate being here and um, I’m glad you didn’t stop podcasting last week. So my story feels, um, you know, it’s so funny. It’s it’s my husband’s been dead for 13 years and so it feels sometimes very distant and then sometimes it feels really close. So my husband was a runner. We were an organic kind of eating family. And one day he came home and he said just, he, you know, he said, I’m just having, oh we I’m sorry. We went on vacation. And he was running these mild fevers and he would get this cough. And so we were giving him Delsum cough syrup, and ibuprofen, cuz that’s what you do when you have mild fever. Right. And you’re on vacation and you can’t, you know, you’re not gonna lay low. And then he came back and he was, he was running a lot at that time. And he said he was going out for a six mile run and he came back like in 20 minutes. I’m like, if that’s how fast you’re running, six miles, we need to sign you up to the marathon, you know, to like to professional runner. It’s like just having, you know, trouble breathing. And so I did what every good wife does, which is, oh, well just take some of my asthma medicine. So so we started using again though, not good to the doctor. It’s just here. Let me give you some drugs. So he took some asthma medicine. Didn’t help a week later. He said, I think I really need to go to the doctor. And he called, we had a primary care. He called the primary care. She said, you know, go to an infectious disease doctor. It sounds like your kids picked up something that you have and you just can’t shake it.

Bunny: (08:19)
How old was he?

Kim: (08:22)
At that point? He was 40. Okay. He was 40 years old. Yeah. And you know, it was at that moment, we both kind of, like I said to him, can I go with you right. When he was ready to ask me to go with him? Like we had this little inkling, that something wasn’t right. And it was in that doctor’s office. It was like a scene out of the movies, you know, with the exception of, we were in exam room and the doctor put his, you know, after doing a series of exams, you know, had, you know, we put his fingers intertwined together, arrested them on the exam table. My husband and I were on the other side and he said, look, it looks like you have cancer. I cannot confirm it until we do a biopsy. And that’s the reason you can’t breathe. Cuz it was all over.

Kim: (09:04)
He had these nodules all over his lungs and he said, we cannot, it was a Friday. And he said, we cannot wait to Monday to get these tests done. I’m gonna send you to a specialist today. Wow. And that was like, exactly, exactly. We made three call, phone calls. We called his parents. We called my parents and we called his boss. Um, and so we went through the whirlwind of kind of like, yep. It is cancer. It’s stage four. You know, you need to like take action now type of thing. There’s no kind of like, let me get a second or third opinion because honestly that might have killed him. We went headlong in and the first thing I noticed is people kept saying, if you need anything, let me know. And at first that sounded so helpful because it was like everyone was coming outta woodwork. Now keep in mind. We had lived in all different parts of the country. So we had friends all over the country and people were calling and leaving us voice messages and saying, Hey, we love you. If you need anything, let us know if you need anything. Let us know. Within a couple weeks I realized how deeply unhelpful that was. And we’ll get into that a little bit later. Okay. So he got disentangled from cancer because I believe that cancer’s not a battle as much as it is an entanglement and everyone’s entangled in it on different, different ways and different levels. And also you think of Christmas tree lights, right. And they’re kind of like all strung together and they’re tangled up and then you get this line that’s straight and you’re like, yes, I’ve got, and then there’s like a knot at the other side. And so so that’s really what cancer felt like to me. Um, so he disentangled himself in spring 2007, we started to rebuild our lives and you know, we were cancer moguls at that point. I mean, we considered ourselves like there’s levels of cancer muggle this, right. If you’ve never had cancer, don’t know anyone with cancer, you’re a serious cancer muggle. But we thought that when you were finished with cancer treatment, like life went back to normal and that’s not what happened. There was a lot of side effects from the drugs that he had taken that took him months to get over. There’s this for weeks, we would lie in bed and look at each other and go, oh my God, what the hell just happened? Like what just happened to us? So there’s all that stuff. We’re getting starting to get our feedback underneath us.

Kim: (11:18)
We’re you know, the test, keep coming back clear, clear, clear, clear. So we, the fear in us, you know, decreases and then less than two years later, you know, it came back. He wasn’t feeling well, he was losing weight, but neither of us really noticed, um, he lost a lot of weight and then one night, right after new year’s, he said I’m really having trouble breathing again. So he went back to the hospital, he had a blood clot because he had been sitting so long over Christmas break. And when they took an x-ray, they found the blood clot, they saw the nodules were back. They weren’t sure whether they were old ones or new ones did a biopsy and it was a cancer again and the same kind of cancer. And four months later he died and he died at the age of 44. So that’s sort of my story. But what happened during this period of time was I noticed how we lost good friends. Some, you know, people, you you’ve had the experience money. Yes. People you expect to show up, do not show up. And other people come in who you’re like kind of like, Hey, I don’t know you that well, but they’re like, that’s okay. I’m gonna help you do X, Y, and Z. And they come into your life. And I also noticed that, you know, so many people didn’t know what to say or what to do. So after my husband died a couple years afterwards, I had kept a blog throughout this whole time. And I had started kind of telling people, Hey, this is what we need. Can you do this, please stop saying this. Um, and, and then I realized I needed to write a book. And I joke that I wrote, wrote it for myself because I would not have known what to do for me. If I had been my friend, I would have been that person who said, if you need anything, let me know repeatedly. And then wondered why I never got the call telling me what to do. So, I really wanted to give people, look, there’s a ton of stuff out there for people with cancer. And not that it’s not enough, but there’s a ton of stuff out there. But if one in two, one in three, people are gonna get cancer before we die. What are the other two people going to do to support their friend? And so I wrote the book and started this journey on helping everyone understand how we as human beings can be really helpful and supportive, um, when people have cancer because it’s, you know, I’m not here because I’m super strong or courageous. I’m, you know, I’m not, I’m not thriving because of those things. I am thriving because at the foundation, people showed up for us and did these small little acts of kindness that helped myself, my husband and our children get through the most horrific experience of our personal lives.

Bunny: (13:59)
So I, so Kim, I wanna tell you that, um, I, I first wanna say, I hope that this is not the only time you can be on the podcast because we can’t cover everything in one recording

Kim: (14:11)
.

Bunny: (14:11)
But I just, for our listeners, I want to quote a few things that you, that I’ve read that you said. And first of all, I want people to know the name of the book, which is it’s a great man. It’s so I love it. It’s a hundred acts, 100 acts of love, a girlfriend’s guide to loving your friend through cancer or loss. And it is a, a, you know, it’s, it’s one of the easiest books to pick up and read. I mean, it’s just each page or each two page spread has something different that you can do for someone. And on occasion it has something not to do if I’m correct. Right. I haven’t got my ebook yet, but I’ve looked at what you’ve said otherwise. But one of you said, one of, one of the things you said, and this is in that post, I’m gonna make myself cry here, but it’s in the post that you did about the guy who came to your son’s birthday party and then wrote, thank you notes to everyone for the gifts. And you didn’t expect him to do that. And you didn’t ask him to do that. But he says, I saw this newly single woman who hardly knew how to celebrate her child’s birthday. And he also said that your son had said, I really want dad to not be sick on my birthday. I there’s a whole, there’s a whole bunch in that Instagram place that, that got me in my heart, in my soul. But you said helping your coworker friend or employee with cancer, isn’t about the grand gesture. Your job is not to relieve them of their journey. It’s to smooth the road a little bit. And, and then there was this other thing that I wanna tell our listeners about before you go a little deeper, which was your friend who took you out to buy you to what she called them post outfits. And I thought, yes, yes, yes. There’s loving and kind for her to say, uh, it’s time for you to get some different clothes. It’s time for us. I mean it, and you, and you also said, I believe the momentary discomfort, one feels when they’re not trying to fix someone’s feelings is worth the long term goal of honoring somebody’s pain. And I think that’s people have a really tough time with pain. It’s, it’s almost like they wanna say let me put some huge bandaid on this, and then I’m gonna step away for a long time. Cuz I don’t know what to do to honor your pain. That’s my experience.

Kim: (16:48)
Yeah. Well, first of all, thank, thank you so much for reading those cuz those, those are people, you know both those people were parents at the school, the two of my children were at. And yeah, that Rob who did the thank you notes? And it was really funny cuz I saw him, the reason I remembered it, cuz you forget all these things. I was walking down the street and he was sitting at a restaurant that I walk by all the time and he was there and we looked at each other and I was like, oh Hey. And then I walked away and I remembered what he did and it was, it was, and that’s what I meant by like I’m here. Not because of the big grand gestures. I think sometimes we think we have to like show up. I have to go grocery shopping for you for the next six weeks. It’s like you don’t, you know, you can just call me next time you have the grocery store and say open up your cabinet and what five things are you almost out of. Right. And then you plop those five things down at the front door and you wave from the car as you’re driving by as you’re driving away. Right. Right. So it’s these little things and sometimes I think sometimes we think that we have to do these big grand gestures so that we can heal someone’s someone’s pain. But I think you’re right. You know, we forget that our job is not to do that. And being in pain is an important part. Being uncomfortable is an important part of understanding that you’re expanding, you’re learning and you’re doing something new. Yeah, it’s just, I think, yeah, yeah. I thank you for that. I just, I love that memory. I remember my friend, you know, I, I was actually in my closet the other day. Wondering if I had one of those out any piece of those outfits left and I don’t think I do cuz it’s been, you know, 12 year, 13 years, but um, yeah, I think one of the things I really want people to know is how important they are to the person who’s dealing with cancer. And I think that like, we all get in our own little world and we get really busy and we get on social media and we think we’re not good enough. We’re, you know, smart enough, pretty enough, short enough. I mean, tall enough, you know, clear, faced enough, whatever it is, right. We’re not enough.

Kim: (18:56)
And we spend our time in there when we all wanna belong, we all wanna connect. And that connecting and that belonging is as simple as calling up someone and saying, I’m gonna bring you chicken or lasagna for Thursday night dinner, which one would you want? Right. That connection is not about diving into someone’s life and getting all in there. That connection is about doing that simple little thing. That one thing that may be a little bit of a stretch for you, but that, you know, will support and help the other person or you hope sometimes you don’t know, but even just taking that action and that’s where the power lies, you know, um, the title of your show, you know, about gratitude. You find that space of when, when you get into, when you just do that one simple thing for that person, that’s where the gratitude comes from. That’s where you’re like, wow, I have a really I, and this is something I always talk about. Don’t say this, but right now I feel really grateful that this is not happening to me. And I do wanna say the flip side of that, we talk about that for a second. Please do not use your friend’s life as a measuring stick. Like you can use it, but don’t share it with them. Please. Don’t say, wow, how bad your life is. Makes me feel really how good, how good my life is. Like, you’re gonna think that, and that’s okay. That’s normal, but that is not an okay thing to say, because your friend does not wanna be the measuring stick for you. That’s that’s, you know, that’s not, doesn’t make them feel very good.

Johanna: (20:25)
That reminds me of when mom was sick and you know what, I’ve heard this other places too, or books or other people saying it, you know, um, people don’t want to talk to you just about like the everyday mundane things, because they’re afraid, like it’s not important enough because you’re going through cancer and yeah. So we can only talk about you and your cancer and what you’re going through, because that’s like the worst thing. And so my life really, you know, isn’t, isn’t as bad as yours, so I’m not gonna just talk about, you know, the bad hair day something like that.

Kim: (21:02)
Yeah. I had a, um, so I had one friend who used to call me every Wednesday morning this, after my husband died and she would leave me a joke joke on my answering. This is how old a long ago it was. Right. We had answering machines. And she would leave me a joke on my answering machine. And she purposely called, like, I was getting the kids ready for school. I couldn’t listen to it. And it was sometimes in the very beginning, it was the only time during the day that I laughed, you know, it was such a mundane, stupid thing for her to do. And it was absolutely fantastic. I had another, my cousin lives on a 90 acre ranch. She had, at this point, she had eight head, a 80 head of sheep, you know, coyotes and wolves, not wolves, coyotes picking these puppies off every now and then and she told the, she would, she would just Regal my husband and I with these hysterical stories about the ranch. The kids and I, who we’d been, we’d been up there all the, you know, all these years. Um, and she told the funniest story about how she was painting the garage bedroom. And she left to paint, you know, the lid on the floor and in walks a baby sheep, and she’s a baby lamb. And she’s like, oh, how cute? And then the baby lamb proceeds to walk on the paint can, and then she’s like, oh my God, stop walking. But then she wants to pick the baby lamb up. But she accidentally like kind of falls. The baby lamb gets freaked out, runs, can’t find the door. So runs around the floor of the depart of the apartment and then escapes. So these little lamb footprints are all from the apartment floor. , you know, but those kind of normal, everyday stories are so important because you’re right. People kind of feel like, oh my gosh, we have to talk about your cancer. You know what, when your coworker is, is, is missing really meeting an important meeting that someone that, some, that one person who, you know, that’s like, you can say, guess who said this da, da, da. And they go, oh my God, I know exactly who said that their cancer is their cancer. They are in their cancer all, yeah. The time you’re a caregiver, you know, Johanna, you’re a caregiver all the time. You don’t need to talk about it all the time. Sometimes it’s really great to talk about the stupid person who did that silly thing the other day that you think is absolutely hysterical or the joke or the baby lamb who comes into the apartment. Mm-hmm um, so I think that’s really important. I can go ahead.

Bunny: (23:21)
No, I just… I was really curious about what, when you’re, I mean, you do this for companies you go in and, and do an entire program on how they can best take care of their employees. But I’m curious, what do you tell people? I mean, this is nuts and bolt stuff, but when somebody says, oh my God, I just found out I have cancer. What do you tell people? I mean, I have some ideas, but I’d love to hear it. Cuz you’re, I mean, you’re, you’re writing the book on this, so I wanna hear what you say cause that’s the nuts and bolts. I mean, when you hear it, what, what’s the best thing to say?

Kim: (23:58)
So I think what I think you and I are probably gonna agree on this. I think the first thing that usually comes out of our mouths is, oh my God, if you need anything, let me know. Like we wanna kind of go into action. Right? And I did allude to this earlier. There are three reasons that, that statement’s not helpful. One is because what is anything like really? What is anything? You know, anything else?

Bunny: (24:22)
Are you gonna pay my mortgage for six months?

Kim: (24:24)
Exactly. Are you gonna pick up my snot nose, throwing up toddler from preschool? Like, what is, or did you mean you get me a gallon of milk? Like what is anything? So I think that’s the first thing. Second thing is when you say anything, you are asking the person who is already way stressed out to break down their day and to find one small piece of anything that you might be able to do. Their head is full of cotton. I often say, you know, I, you know, both, you were probably not, you know, you may have looked like you had 52 decks, 52 cards in the deck, but you did not. You know, you didn’t know how many cards you were missing any given moment. It could be 10, it could be 20. It could be one. Um, so, so you’re asking this person, who’s already stressed out to break down their day and let’s just say that they do right. Let’s just say that they figure the one thing that they’re willing, that they need help with. Then you are asking them they’re vulnerable. They’re terrified. They’ve got so many things that going on in their lives to ask you to do the, anything that they’re not really sure that you wanna do and risk rejection right now on top of it all, like there were so many times I need the gas in the car. I mean, I, you know, I remember boiling water and then realizing it out of pasta. And that’s happened to probably a lot of mothers and people were offering to help, but I felt so silly calling someone and going, remember that, anything you said that I need that you do. So here’s what I need. I need pasta like right now. And you know, I wasn’t I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t reach out to someone and say that.

Kim: (25:59)
So that’s why that phrase is so deeply not helpful. I think another phrase that people often say is, I mean, one, one of the best things I’ve heard people say is, oh my God, I don’t know what to say because that speechlessness that moment of taking the pause of, I’ve just gotten really difficult news about someone who I care about and like, and I need a moment. That’s that mindfulness. We’re all trying to go after. Right? I need a moment is so powerful because what you’re doing when you say that to somebody is you’re saying, I see you, I see the pain and the suffering that you might have to go through whatever. And I am speechless. Mm-hmm right. That’s so powerful. Something else not to say the at least, well, at least it’s this at least, you know, at least, at least you caught this. At least you didn’t do that. At least it’s a good kind of cancer, which I, which I please don’t ever say that to anyone. It’s a good kind of cancer. It could be worse. They love to say it could be you don’t, it could be worse. Like y’all yes. You don’t look sick. Yes. It could be worse. All those phrases, everything be strong. You know, you got this, stay positive in those tones with tho with that meaning what you’re doing is you’re just, you’re not connecting. Right. Cuz you’re stepping back from their cancer. Cuz it’s scary. If they get sick randomly, that means I can get sick randomly. And that’s a hard thing to acknowledge. So, so what you’re doing with those phrases, you are stepping back. You’re like, it’s almost like you’re pushing the person back and you’re trying to turn it into something good.

Kim: (27:48)
And also sometimes you’re just trying to say that one thing that you’re gonna drop that beautiful bomb and then you’re gonna walk away because staying positive, I agree. It’s important. But if you’re gonna drop the bomb on me and be like, okay, stay positive and then walk away. What’s the point. It’s better. If you say, you know, I do these morning affirmations, would you like to do them with me every morning? I’ll call you up and we’ll do or I’ll read them. I’ll you know, don’t, don’t pick up and I’ll lead them on your voicemail. So there are so many, you know, when you’re going to help somebody, you actually have to help them. You, you have to get into it. Um, but all those phrases and the millions that come from that all come from our fear of connecting with the person who’s dealing with this difficulty, cuz y’all, I mean, I’m terrified of getting cancer. I am terrified of getting cancer. I saw someone, I love get cancer and die, you know? And when my friends call me and tell me they have cancer, my heart falls out and I literally sometimes just wanna hang up on them and pretend they didn’t call. I know, but yeah. Yes. You know my job, but you know, that’s, that’s not my job as a friend or as a coworker, my job is to kind of lean in and to say, I’m sorry, and I hear you and I’m with you. Yeah. Um, I think one other thing I wanna say is please don’t do the, I’m sure you guys will totally relate to this. How are you? So you get the big, what, what, what your listeners can’t see is I’m doing the shoulder, pat, the, the shoulder rub and pat. So you get these big puppy eyes and they go, oh my gosh, how are you?

Kim: (29:30)
And they expect you to, to dump your hardship on them right here in the like, it’s like really? Yeah. Just don’t I love the question. How are you right now? Mm-hmm cause I can, say’s a cause. And wait for me to answer. Don’t be like, Hey, how are you? You know, how are you right now? How are you today? How did you do yesterday? Those are all great questions, but don’t come at us with the big puppy eyes and the cuz it’s pity. And the last thing we want when we’re going through, this is pity. We want encouragement. We want support. But most of all, which is something we all want. We all want to be seen and witnessed. We all want to be counted. And that’s, this is an opportunity when someone you care about is dealing with a life threatening disease, like cancer, it’s an opportunity to say, I care about you. Thank you for being my friend. You know,

Bunny: (30:23)
I would say

Johanna: (30:24)
You put it so well. Yeah. I just think everything you’re saying is like, I remember being in that place and feeling that way. So,

Bunny: (30:31)
So I mean, it’s so important. And I think the cool thing about Johanna and I doing this together is that she has that care caregiver’s perspective and she knows how difficult I, I mean, I was like the worst patient. I was the, would you go get me some Queso and she’d bring up that. But, and so there’s this the two of you have this caregiver perspective and, and you got to watch all that cringeworthy stuff. I would say that another thing I wanna say to people and I, and, and I’m sure you ran into this, Kim, there are a lot of people who sort of latch onto like your cancer and kind of wanna co-opt it. And be, you know, they’re not even your close friend. I mean, if you’re not close to somebody, I would say stop acting like you’re the spokesperson or the, I don’t, I don’t know you don’t, it’s hard not to wanna grab somebody’s misfortune and say, oh, I know all about it. Let me tell you what’s going on with them. And I, and I wanted to say to people who hadn’t been in contact with me for years, I’m not sure why you just showed up, but I mean, I appreciate your thoughts. Well, I think I don’t have time for a lot of this yes. Is that, is that cruel? Am I, am I being ugly?

Kim: (32:00)
No. I think what happens is there’s definitely a level of resentment, you know? It’s like, yeah, they can call me for the last 10 years now I have cancer. Now you wanna call me. But at the same time, what happens? The flip side of that is some people do call you because it’s like, oh my God, it’s gossip. And did you hear that Bunny has, and she’s gonna be doing this page. I dunno, she’s gonna live and we’ll have to watch the Facebook page, see what happens. So there’s that side of it. But, but then there’s the other side of it, which is, gosh, you know, I really liked bunny. She was really funny and she made me laugh. And the fact that she has cancer makes me feel sad and I’ve been, I just, it’s so funny cuz I thought about her last year and I didn’t reach out and I should have reached out. And this feels like it’s a really bad reason to reach out, but I’m gonna reach out to her. So I think there are two camps of people who do that. Right. And, and you do and, and, and figuring out which one is, which sometimes takes a little bit of time. Um, it takes about actually about five minutes of a conversation. So, you know, if you are that right, that if you are that person who you’ve heard someone, you don’t know, you haven’t, you haven’t talked to in a long time who you have a fond memory of call them, tell them, you know, what your cancer made me remember that you did this. Remember the time we did that in high school, remember when we worked together and I just, I just always enjoyed your company because that’s, that’s the food for the soul. That’s the seeing that’s, that’s the good stuff.

Kim: (33:27)
If you are in there, if you wanna call up and go my best friend’s uncle’s neighbor’s brother had colon cancer and he survived twice. Like yeah, don’t be that person . Um, and, and that’s another thing not to say, I know people mean well by telling us cancer stories, but honest to God, we do not need another cancer story. Like, oh no. Especially if it’s your neighbors, uncles, brothers, son, you know, I remember someone telling me that, so, and so’s neighbor’s brother’s son had cancer twice and they beat it. We were going through cancer the first time. The idea that we Might have to go through it, second time was like, stop talking now, please.

Bunny: (34:13)
Well, so I wanna hear about, I mean, we could, we really could talk about this for a long time because it’s so, you know, like don’t give advice, don’t give medical advice. If you’re not the doctor mm-hmm that sort of thing.

Kim: (34:25)
Mm-hmm.

Bunny: (34:26)
There are a million things we could say. What I’d really like to hear about is how you made this move. And I think it’s incredibly important to be somebody who helps employers and teams help their employees who find themselves in this position because wow. I mean, I read some of your blog posts and I thought how important it is. So it is it’s so cool. I was self-employed but I’m on all these cancer forums. I mean, you know, I’m in all these Johanna calls on my cancer click, I’m in all this, all these groups of people who are still working for a living and it’s like, how do you as an employer or as a coworker, I’m curious first, how you got to that. And then how that, how that works?

Kim: (35:21)
Well, I have to go back to work. Um, after my husband died, there was very little insurance money. Um, and so I had to go back to work and I went, I eventually wound up back in the HR field, which is what I was in bef my, I was a stay at home mom when my husband was diagnosed and after he died. Um, so I was doing, I was in the HR world prior to us having our second child. And of course I end up in a position where the husband, who’s the president of this company, his wife has cancer and then the wife dies and I watched the company lose their mind. They have no idea what to say. They’re like, let’s get ’em food. I’m like the last thing Phil needs, last thing this person needs right now is food. Trust me, like, you know, and of course went to exactly no more. Can I just tell you my kids on the second month that my husband died, they literally said no more lasagna mom, like no more lasagna because everyone bought us lasagna and you never knew what kind of lasagna was gonna be, but it was gonna be good taste, lasagna or bad taste lasagna. And the kids were like, we’re done. Like we are done no more. And they sit, they literally refuse to eat it because of lasagnas. So the little side note so I, I tried to help them. I tried to say, Hey, look, this is what he’s gonna be like when he comes back to work, you know, cuz he would lose his temper. He would get shortsighted. He would cry at his desk. You know, I said, these are all perfectly normal reactions.

Kim: (36:53)
This is how I suggest you approach it at this time, in this way. You know, I had to talk to his boss who was the head of the whole company, cuz it was a, a company from a different country and say, Hey, these are some things you need to know. You know, this is what’s going on in his brain. It’s gonna, you know, he looks fine, but it’s gonna take him months to recover. And, and really more than that, but months to run kind of be an efficient employee. Um, and that’s when I realized, oh my gosh, no one knows what to say or what to do. And I went on to another position and you know, there was someone else with cancer and they were, again, people who were, you know, the manager didn’t know how to have a conversation with the, with the employee who had cancer.

Kim: (37:38)
And as a result, the team fell apart. I mean, it was just amazing. This was what a key player on the team. The team fell apart because the manager couldn’t have the conversation. The employee didn’t really know what the heck was going on. Didn’t know what he, you know, what he was trying to do, didn’t know what was happening to his life. The team was all trying to gather around and support him, but they, you know, they, they did so on a personal level, but they couldn’t figure out how to do it at work. HR was useless in this organization. And so that’s when I really wanted to focus on, you know, I’m in HR, I love business. I have a business acumen and I know that, you know, in a perfect world, nobody gets sick, but we don’t live in a perfect world. Um, the other thing that I think people forget is 46% of those diagnosed with cancer between the ages of 25 and 60 or between the ages of 25 and 64 prime working years.

Kim: (38:35)
Yeah. So I often say this to people. If you have not worked with someone, if you’re in the corporate world and you’ve got a job, if you have not worked with someone with cancer, it’s only a matter of time, right? It’s only a matter of time and people are so ill-equipped, we’re not, you know, middle management is usually the one that gets stuck in the middle. They don’t have the coaches, the executive coaches helping them. They’re trying to get this done. And they feel horrendous because they have the, their, their thought is, oh my gosh, you have cancer. That’s horrible. And then, oh my gosh, how am I gonna make this month’s numbers? And that thought about this month’s numbers makes them feel really guilty. Like they, I’m a horrible person when it actually it’s a normal reaction because they do have to think about this month’s numbers and they also need to show some type of compassion and those two can go together, but it’s not as intuitive as we all, as, as we’d hope it would be.

Bunny: (39:29)
Well, I mean, Johanna’s, I know you were gonna make a comment about it because it’s…

Johanna: (39:35)
Uh, no, I was say, I was just thinking how important that is, what important work that is. And then I was also thinking, wow, that’s so true. And I’ve never thought about it that way, the age range and how, I mean, we do talk a lot about how cancer is probably gonna touch everybody’s life at some point, but we usually think about it as your family or friends. We don’t, I haven’t considered, you know, it could be at the workplace. And then I was thinking, wow, I used to work in an office with six people. It was so tiny and two people had cancer. So I mean just the odds there. And um, I mean we’re all social workers, so hopefully we handled it. Okay. But, but yeah, you’re right. No, I think we still could have used some training on that and everybody, everybody should. Um, because that’s, I mean, I feel like that’s gonna be life changing to just know, you know, you spend what, two thirds of your life in the office at work. And so those people around you are, you know, the impact they can make is huge.

Bunny: (40:35)
The other piece of that is that we, what we know now is that, um, cancer, especially colon cancer that I know of is that it’s affecting more and more young people every year. So if the numbers are what you say they are right now, it’s only going to be more, I mean, I, I’m sorry to be a naysayer, but that’s just the truth in the medical community that, that more and more people that you know, who are in the workforce are going to have cancer.

Kim: (41:04)
Exactly.

Bunny: (41:06)
They’re gonna suffer loss. I mean, this applies even, even to somebody who maybe doesn’t have cancer, but has, you know, suffered some sort of hor horrific loss. Yes.

Kim: (41:16)
Yeah. I mean, and you know,

Bunny: (41:17)
Why isn’t this mandatory training

Kim: (41:19)
, I’m working on it, I’m working on it. good. Yeah. You know, it, you know, let’s say a, an, you know, an employee is hospitalized, you know, and they’re out for three months. What does that do to the team? Well, how do you have those conversations? And a lot of teams will white knuckle it and they’ll get through it. But then when that employee comes back in, they, everyone, including the employee often expect it’ll just be back to normal. And it takes time to recover from being in the hospital for three months. I also think that we forget that there’s been a lot of advancement with cancer treatments. And so employees aren’t leaving the workforce, they are staying and being treated while they’re working. So that’s another side of it that we don’t think about, you know, there’s the, am I a private person or am I, you know, there’s a I there’s, um, integrators and, um, oh shoot, I forget the name.

Kim: (42:12)
I have a whole post on it, which I love cuz there are people who are in the workforce who are integrators. They’re the ones who have family photos up, you know, you know, they had a fight with their spouse the night before because they come in, we’ll tell you all about it. Um, and then there are those who are very private. They might have one family photo in their office. Their, their work keys are separate from their home keys. They don’t often share about what’s happening, how those two people react to a cancer diagnosis is very different. And so, you know, there’s not a one size fits all. It really depends on the team. The culture does a team have a really strong, you know, connection culture as the team, sort of like, you know, a team about competition because that affects how you talk about it.

Kim: (42:55)
So there’s so many different variables here that we often don’t think about, um, which to me is incredible, lost opportunity for an organization. And especially now with today’s with, with the low numbers of, you know, with the, with the difficulty of finding the right employee for your organization, right? So it has impact there. It has huge impact on your productivity, whether you see it immediately, like if you’re in sales, you can see it immediately. If you’re, you know in the, it end, you may not see it so quickly. It has huge impact on, you know, on the numbers of your revenue and huge impact on the compassion and your, and how your company is seen by your employees and how long they stay at your organization. And so I think the, the people just haven’t thought that through, they just don’t understand the ramifications of what you say and do and how you treat an employee with cancer.

Kim: (43:47)
People are watching, you know, your employees are watching and they’re all judging. There’s not a single employee. That’s like, oh yeah, they’re, you know, who’s not thinking they should be doing it better or they’re doing a great job, right? They’re all watching. And as soon as companies understand that, then that’s when they’ll start to take it seriously. And it’s also part of the whole wellbeing. We push a mental health that we have now in this country. Um, because you know, talk about being under stress because your coworker has cancer and you’re not sure what kind of work you’re supposed to be doing. And you’ve already got a lot of work and you’ve got something going on in your home life. I mean, you know, if you can have some clear guidelines at work about what you’re supposed to be doing, about how you’re gonna about how this person is doing that just decreases the amount of stress you have and that Inc that, you know, that’s mental health right there. So that I could talk about, I could obviously talk about this all day long, but I could go into details on that one. Um, but yeah, I think companies just don’t think about it. And the reality is companies are having to pick up the slack. They’re having to start to take care of their employees and making sure that they’re financially healthy and mentally healthy. It’s just the way the, or the way the world is moving now. And this is a big piece of it.

Bunny: (44:59)
Well, I saw that you, I mean, you’ll go into the company. I mean, you’ll meet with the employee, you meet with the managers, you go through several steps. And I just, I think I, you know, I, what a, what a valuable service and what, and you’re the perfect person

Kim: (45:15)
To do. Oh, thank you.

Bunny: (45:22)
Yeah. Well, I, so, so we’re, we’re almost to the end of what we can talk about, but I’d love to come back and talk a little more about that employee employer piece and the team piece. But I would, I would also love as a gift to our listeners for you to read a couple of your hundred, 100 action. Sure. Because I think it’s so cool. I, I it’s it’s they’re so they’re so much fun and they’re so smart and, and I expect you to have them memorized

Kim: (45:56)
Well, I’d love to that’s so that’s so sweet. I,

Bunny: (45:59)
And I, and I wanna tell you just this cool thing that happened to us, and we’ll send you a copy of my book so that you can read it. But Johanna and I, early on in my diagnosis went to a dinner that these women, that I was in a Bible study group had for us. And we had no expectations other than we kind of dreaded it, cuz it was like a week after my diagnosis. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is gonna be so hard. And at the end of the meal and I, and our listeners can’t tell, but I’m like, my eyes are watery, cuz I’ve wanted to cry the entire time during this interview because it’s, so this is so dear to my heart. But at the end, um, the woman who was hosting the dinner said, oh, and by the way, we put together a little something for you to take home. And every one of these women had made homemade soup. Oh. And put it in the freezer and they loaded us up with like, I don’t know, Johanna was like a dozen, 15 little containers of

Johanna: (46:58)
Soup. Yeah. It reminded me that, of that picture you have on your website of your husband with all the Tupperware

Kim: (47:04)
yes, yes.

Johanna: (47:06)
It wasn’t quite that many, but we had soup for months and months and it was something you could just pull out when you didn’t have anything else or, you know yep. Yep. Didn’t know what to do.

Kim: (47:15)
And I was also very thoughtful for colon cancer because I’m sure that the whole thing with food and, you know, having foods had to be digested were, were like kind of off the table in a, in some ways. So yeah, that was so that’s so I love, I tell you one of the things I do love about doing what I do is I get to hear all these incredible stories, you know, because people do look, you don’t have to know what to do. Just do something.

Johanna: (47:41)
That’s what, yeah. Like you would have, she would have people like, you know, a friend or family member come be like, I’m gonna come organize your closet. I’m gonna come mop your floor. Yep. You know? Yep. Yeah. Just little things and where you don’t feel like you have to spend a lot of energy with them either, you know, like I’m gonna sit and have a two hour conversation with you. No, you go rest and do it or do whatever you need to do. And I’m gonna do this thing for you. So you don’t have to think about it. That’s the most helpful.

Kim: (48:09)
Exactly. Exactly.

Bunny: (48:11)
My husband was with a woman before me who had, who had colon cancer as well. And he said the best thing that somebody did for them was that they just showed up at the end on the day that she got disconnected from her infusion and, and left food on the steps, no conversation, no nothing. And then somebody else said, you know, the best thing anybody ever did for me was that they ju we, they had a time, they would come by, they had a key, they would come in, get the dog, take the dog for a walk, no conversation. That’s stuff like that is big. But you, you share with our folks because this is, this is so important. It’s so good for both the person who’s doing it. And the, and the recipient.

Kim: (48:57)
Well, I, you know, it’s so funny cuz I, on my, on my Instagram feed, I’m reading a chapter a week or one act of love a week. Yes, yes. And the one I’m gonna read right now has to do with the food. Um, because it was one of the things that I had not thought of the first time that my husband was sick, but the second time someone suggested it and it was a lifesaver and it’s act of love. Number 37, put a cooler by the front door for meal deliveries admitting you need help is hard. Allowing people to help is harder. Still making sure you’re at home to receive the help can feel and possible. Help her accept the food she needs by putting a cooler at the front door. She won’t have to be home and she won’t have to put on a happy face when she doesn’t feel like it or answer the well meaning.

Kim: (49:48)
But dreaded question. How are you if needed, be sure to add a fewd ice packs to keep things cool. And then a little side note, it says we didn’t do this until art second bat with cancer. It was one of the most helpful suggestions we got. And after he died, it was a sanity saver for, there were many days, especially early on when I could not face anyone, but my closest friends. So I think, um, the other thing too about this book, I designed it. So I’m not a reader. I mean, I love reading, but when I’m reading for information, I love bullet points, underlined big bullet. Like tell me what you want me to know. What are the three big things that, that are really important in this chapter? That’s what I want. So I wrote this in a way that you could just open it up and be like, oh my gosh, this is like, uh, fill her car with gas is another, is another tip in here.

Kim: (50:39)
So it’s fill her car. I can do that. You put the book down, you go out, you do your thing. And then maybe you come back a week later and you pick the book up and you try to find something else. So that’s N tip number 37. The book is also organized within categories. So we have food help. We have car help. We have help with kids. We have help at work. We have, um, how to be a human being, not a human doing, um, holiday and birthday help. So the next tip I wanna read is from, um, it’s actually from the it’s from the different chapter, which is how to help around the house. And I love this. This is active love. Number 48, stalk her bathroom stalk your girlfriend’s bathroom closet with toilet paper, toothpaste, body soap and tampons, toothbrushes, dental, Flo shampoo, and conditioner.

Kim: (51:23)
Then put your name and number on a piece of paper and tape it to the inside of the closet or cabinet where she keeps the supplies. If you are willing to purchase more, while this won’t necessarily ensure that your girlfriend avoids the pants at the ankle, waddle to grab a fresh roll of toilet paper, she’ll at least know there’s a roll to grab. So, um, you know, we, I don’t think about that. I, I run through an exercise and I ask people to go through their day. Like when you get outta bed, what’s the first thing you do. You put your feet on the floor. What’s the second thing you do. Some people look at their phone. What’s your phone bill been paid, right? Some people go to the bathroom. Is there toilet paper in the bathroom? Is there soap to wash your hands with?

Kim: (52:01)
Is there a clean towel? So just in those four things, I just mentioned you can help them do, you can get either have a laundry service and do their laundry, or you can go over and do their laundry for them. You can make sure that they’ve got toothpaste and, and stuff for the bathroom. You can make sure their phone bill and their electric bill has been paid. Right? So it’s, it’s these little things I do wanna say this note about helping with, um, paying with money. It is highly embarrassing. You know, most of the time a, a cancer crisis is part of it incurs a financial crisis and it, and you know, we all feel like we should have, should have would’ve coulda, right? We should have saved more money, should have done whatever, whatever it is, one of the best gift you can give to someone, um, short of paying a bill is just to give them cash and to give them cash through a third person, who’s gonna swear secrecy because it’s very hard to give cash to someone cuz they’re gonna push it away.

Kim: (52:58)
They be like, no, no, no, I’m fine. But if like, if Johanna, if bunny gave money to Johanna to give me cash and, and I, you, you you’d be like, I, I can’t take this back because this isn’t from me. So you have to take it and I’d be like, who gave it to you? I’m not gonna tell you. You just have to take it. So it’s really helpful to do that. Um, I wanna leave with this story. I kept a blog when my husband was sick both times and this woman, I got one day in the mail, I got this little envelope and I opened it up and it was this little card. And she said, I’ve been watching your story. I don’t know what to do or how to help you. But here’s $10. I know it’s not a lot, but it’s really, you know, I just hope that it’ll help you with something. It was one of the most meaningful $10 I’ve ever gotten in my whole entire life. Was it a lot of money? No, but she, in her taking that action, she was saying to me, I see you. I hear you, you, your journey with your husband really matters. And that helped me find the courage and the strength to continue doing what I was doing. So those small little actions you take are the thing that really we’re

Bunny: (54:19)
Just, and I’m just thinking about, you know, I would get a car, a little MI graph sheet of paper every couple of weeks from some little church in Eastern New Mexico. And it would say, we just want you to know that we were praying for you on Wednesday night. And there would be like seven signatures because those are so tiny. And I would think that’s so important. Those people don’t even know. But that’s what you’re saying is that just do something doesn’t have to be huge

Johanna: (54:47)
Just, and so like exactly what you said. It’s not, it’s not that, you know, that $10, you know, financially made a big difference, but in, in your will to keep going in your, you know, your drive and gave you a little, like just gave you that little nudge that you needed, that is priceless. So

Kim: (55:09)
It’s

Johanna: (55:10)
So well put.

Kim: (55:11)
Yeah. And I want people to, I want people to know they matter, you know, you can be that little nudge for that person. Who’s going through their crisis. Um, you know, you little person sitting in that office feeling like, you know, you don’t know that person with cancer very well. You stop by with a hot cup of coffee and say, you know, I don’t even know if you drink coffee, but I just want you to have this because warm stuff makes me feel good. And I hope that it makes you feel good. Wow. Then you go on your way. So it’s, it’s I really want people to know that, you know, their action really matters. They matter and they can make a difference.

Johanna: (55:53)
I love it,

Bunny: (55:54)
Kim. I can’t tell you enough how grateful I am that you were our guest today. Wow. It’s what a gift. Aww. Will you come back?

Kim: (56:05)
Well, thank you. Oh, I love to come back. I would love to continue this conversation and I love, you know, I love talking to caregivers and people with cancer because you know, we have that. I, I tell my kids, my kids find people who are, who have hearts that are in similar ways and that’s not a bad thing. You find your tribes that way. Right? And so my kids often, my kids good. Most of my kids, really good friends either have had a father who’s not around, um, or have suffered some type of loss in their lives. And um, so I loved hanging out with you because we’re the same. We have the similar, our hearts are similarly dented and we have, you know, and we have a message to carry. And then there’s also this heaviness and this sadness of like, I can’t believe this was part of our lives. I just kind of instill every now and then I wake up and I go, I cannot believe I’m never gonna see you in the form that I was used to seeing you. I can’t believe that I’m forgetting what your voice, you know, just kinda like, really like really did that really? You know, I’m sure bunny, you kind of go, wait, wait, what did that really just happen? Did that really happen? You know, and generally you too. So there’s there’s um, okay. I’m blabbing on. You can cut that part out.

Johanna: (57:23)
No, no, I love,

Speaker 5: (57:24)
I I, no, I’m sorry. It’s it’s it’s

Johanna: (57:29)
Really, I thought the same way when we start talking, you I’ll, I’ll I’ll keep going on, but yeah, just thinking, oh wow. Like she really gets it and it’s just having that, uh, just another person, even if it’s someone you’re never gonna see in person like, wow, that’s just having that conversation and feeling that connection. I, I love it. I’m so glad we met you.

Kim: (57:52)
Thank you. Pod match.

Johanna: (57:56)
Hashtag

Kim: (57:58)
Match. Right.

Johanna: (57:59)
Well, we’ll definitely invite you back on and, and go into more about your business too, and, and how things are going. And, uh, we’ll definitely link your book and your website and hopefully, you know, people can get in touch with you.

Kim: (58:12)
Well, I’d like to invite all your guests to download five phrases, never to say to anyone with cancer and what to say. And I actually go through no, no. And I don’t leave you hanging with the five phrases, never to say, I do give you five phrases to say, speaking of which don’t say, if you need anything, let me know, be specific on what you can do. It doesn’t matter. Just be specific and ask and, and offer more than once. Um, so that’s my very last final tip, but you can go to 100 acts of love.com. That’s the number 100 and acts of love.com/what not to say very simple. What not to say no capitalize, no spaces. What not to say. And you can get your free download of five phrases, never to say why you shouldn’t say them and what to say instead.

Johanna: (59:03)
Perfect. thank you, Kim.

Bunny: (59:08)
That’s all we’ve got today. Friends. I wanna thank you for joining the lifesaving gratitude podcast with your host Bunny, Terry that’s me and my producer and assistant Johanna Medina. We feel like we’re in the business of sharing the stories that save us and we hope you’ll share as well by letting your friends and family know about the podcast follow and like us wherever you listed. And please take the time to leave a review, whether it’s a stellar comment or a suggestion, we are open to suggestions all the time. Also follow us on Instagram at live saving gratitude pod. You can also follow me personally at Bunny Terry, Santa Fe. You can sign up my website at bunnyterry.com to receive weekly emails about how to become the ultimate gratitude nerd. Thanks so much for checking in.

Bunny: Hi everyone. This is Bunny with the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. Just in case you don’t know me, I am a stage four colon cancer survivor and the author of Lifesaving Gratitude, which is a book about how gratitude helped me kick cancer’s ass. 

Today we’re going to talk to a special guest about how marketing and marketers can use gratitude to create business and connections with clients and also for themselves to create a really positive way to do their job. But first, I just want to thank you for being here and ask that you download the podcast if you’d like. And certainly subscribe wherever you listen to other podcasts. But enough about me and enough about the podcast. 

I want to introduce you to my special guest, who’s also a friend. Craig Cunningham is currently a realtor with Keller Williams, Santa Fe. And that’s how I met him. However, this is a recent career for him and he was, and correct me if I mispronounce the word, but you were a hotelier. Is that the way to say that?

Craig: Yes. 

Bunny: Yes. He’s spent 30 years in corporate sales and marketing. He’s traveled extensively. I’m going to let him tell you all the places that he’s been to, but he is the founder and principal of Cunningham + Colleagues marketing consultants. He was in the past the VP of marketing and quality for Seaport Hotels and World Centers and the VP of marketing for Core North America. So welcome Craig Cunningham.

Craig: Thanks so much for having me on your podcast.

Bunny: I’m excited. I know you have some great tips for all of our listeners. When I think about these podcasts, I always think about the people that are going to want the information we’re offering. I mean, we’re here to help people and we’re here to figure out how gratitude can make everyone’s life not just easier and simpler, but also fuller. So why don’t you start, Greg? Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us how in the world you ended up in this completely different career? And yet the truth is we’re still just marketers first and realtors, second. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell our listeners.

Craig: Yeah. So, as you said, I’ve been in marketing and sales for more than 30 years. I actually started off with an advertising and PR agency and then had the good fortune to be hired by my hotel client at the time, Wyndham hotels. At that time it was a North American chain and it’s now international. 

But from then on, I was in the hotel business. It’s definitely a career where if you are not focused on client service and the whole concept of gratitude, you’re not going to be successful. I always thought of our job as just surprising and delighting our guests and making them feel like they chose the right hotel to be with. And so it was always about waking up every day and saying, “What can I do to make somebody’s day and to give them a great experience?” And, of course, to do this you have to be grateful because they opted to choose your hotel over the million other choices that they had. 

So when I retired from the hotel business two years ago, I was trying to figure out what else I wanted to do with my life. I started doing more volunteering. I volunteer with Kitchen Angels here in Santa Fe to deliver meals to people who are not able to leave their homes. But I also started thinking of whether I wanted to do something else from a professional standpoint and the real estate business seemed like a natural extension, because it’s all about client service. You have to figure out ways to make people feel like they’ve made the right choice in working with you. So it’s all about being grateful every day and figuring out what can I do to help them today. How else can I extend what I’m doing for them in a way that they will appreciate and know that I appreciate them. So that’s what it’s really all about, because of course they could work with a million other other people

Bunny: Right. And let’s talk for just a second. Don’t you think that marketing has changed over the 30 years that you’ve been doing this? I mean, it seems to me that when we were kids, which was back before the crust cooled, we were sort of marketed at. Just talk for a minute about how marketing is different now than it was 10 years ago or 30 years ago.

Craig: It’s funny, because I was going to say the exact same thing. Back in the day, you were running a TV ad or a radio spot or a print ad and it was passive in that you just presented the information, unless you were direct sales. But really with the advent of so much digital media, you are instantly able to forge a relationship with customers through social media, through Facebook, Instagram, where you’re having a dialogue with them from the very beginning. This allows you to work in a much more personal way and to be able to find out much more quickly how you can serve those people. 

So I think it’s changed completely. Before you just sort of put it out there into the ether and hope that something worked, and now you’re able to engage. And I’ve found that so much in real estate where I’m getting emails from folks and then it evolves from the email into a phone call or a zoom call or something like that instantly. I think that’s so much better for both people. Especially for somebody like me who wants to find ways to engage with people and to be of service to them, it makes it a lot easier and more rewarding.

Bunny: I just think about the ways that I connect with my clients. It’s as if you’re somehow conveying to those people that you’re grateful that they showed up.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, my whole thought is that it’s not a transaction, it’s a relationship. And that relationship can be multifaceted. Once you’ve sold them a house or sold their house, I like to think that we’ve formed a friendship and a bond and that relationship is going to continue. And honestly, I don’t even care if I ever get another piece of business for them. Now think of them as friends. I want to have them to my house for dinner or go have coffee or something like that. 

I think that kind of thing that makes a difference for people in wanting to work with me.  It’s coming from a position of wanting to be of service to them and wanting to make them happy and finding the right solution for them. I’m working with some first-time-buyers right now and I kind of feel like they’re my kids. It’s about, okay, how can I really help them with this? And they’re grateful for the counsel I’m able to give to them, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to work with them. So it’s very rewarding. I think if you approach business relationships in the same way as you would with your friends, it’s a win-win situation for everybody.

Bunny: Well, talking about those first-time home buyers, I mean, that’s one of my favorite deals. You never make the most money from those transactions, but I’m so grateful to be reminded that we are providing the American dream when we’re selling real estate. Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s my favorite experience.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, for somebody to have their first home and to be excited about how they’re going to decorate it and what they’re going to do. And with this young couple, seeing them excited when they see a house brings out all my empathy and makes me want to really go the extra mile for them to make sure they find the right house at the right price for them. And then I just never want to stop. So then it’s like, “Okay, now I’m going to find this person for you to do the plumbing, and I’m going to find this person, etc, and I’ll be with you with you  to help explain things.” I just want to really continue to be of service.

Bunny: I talk a lot, especially on my blog, about Judy Camp, who was one of my first real estate mentors. She was a great friend and Linda Gammons partner for a long time before she passed away. But Judy Camp always says, “If you come from contribution, you can’t help but be successful.”

Craig: Yeah. I mean, just as I was saying, you can’t think of it as a transaction. I think, coming from contribution, how can I help you? How can I make this a better experience? How can I make this work? Because, especially in a real estate transaction, it can be stressful. It’s the biggest financial transaction for the majority of us. So how do you take the burden and the pressure away from them and sort of guide them through the process? I just think the main thing is that it’s much more fun, whether you’re doing volunteer work or in business, to wake up every day and figure out how I could make it fun for somebody else. Because then it’s fun for you and it gets you excited and passionate about what you’re doing.

Bunny: Well, it sounds like our big “why’s” are really similar. I certainly don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but it sounds like your big “why” is just to make the life of the people you come in contact with better.

Craig: Yeah. Of course making money is nice, but there are lots of ways to make money. It’s more about whether you are getting energy from it. And I think you really get energy when you’re working with someone and trying to figure out how you can help them, how you can make their day better, how you can make the service that you’re providing better. And also just doing things that saying, “What about if I do X, Y, Z?” and they’re  like, “Oh, you’ll do that for me?” And I’m like, “Of course.”

I have another set of clients where the transaction was fairly complicated and we were looking at lots of properties. Coming from a corporate background, I love to do spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations—things like that. And so after about the third thing we had to do, they’re like, “Oh, how are we going to organize all these bids?”  And then one of the guys said to the other guy, “Well, Craig’s going to do a spreadsheet for us. He’s probably already got it done.” So it’s that kind of thing where you’re looking for ways to make their experience better.

Bunny: So this is always a funny question for me to ask, because I have such a loose gratitude practice other than just waking up in the morning and saying, “thank you, thank you, thank you,” and then writing things down, but do you have a practice that you follow that helps you both in your business and your personal life?

Craig: Well, since I came into real estate with Keller Williams, which focuses a lot on being servant leaders and helping people, I’ve gotten into the habit of writing three things I’m grateful for that day. It could be that it’s a beautiful day or a dog or my partner or the opportunity to help somebody or the coffee’s really good that day, but waking up and appreciating what you have in your life is a good way to get in a good mindset for the rest of it.

Bunny: Oh, absolutely. Something I always say is that we kind of rewire our brains. We do. We create new neural pathways every time we say that we’re grateful. So in terms of nuts and bolts, is there a way that you let your clients know? I mean, I find that there are a lot of young people, young entrepreneurs or people who are new to business, who forget how to tell their clients how they’re grateful for them, even if it’s a line in an email. Do you have something that you do specifically over and over?

Craig: I think for me, it’s maybe more in the actions. I think of “This is really going to be helpful if I do this or if I provide this information.” I think it’s always in my voice and the way that I write. I try to always communicate openly and in a friendly and conversational manner. But then I also think “It would be really cool and really helpful if I did X , Y , Z.” I created a whole PowerPoint just on the neighborhoods in Santa Fe, because if you’re out of town it gets confusing. And that came out of a client saying, “Well, I don’t really know the neighborhoods.” And I thought that this would be a great tool for them. So I created it and then I was able to use it with others. 

So I think for me, maybe it’s sort of on the fly. I used to say in the hotel hotel business, “How can I make this a wow experience?” Because the other way to think about it is that every relationship is with people. When you’re in a service business you’re really in the business of creating memories. You can create good memories or you can create bad memory and it’s much more fun to create good memories.

Bunny: And that just comes from a spirit of generosity. I mean, you obviously want this to be the best real estate experience they’ve ever had.

Craig: Right. Right. I’m very grateful for the people that have helped me along the way. I’ve been very fortunate in my career to always work for people who were concerned about my career development and my personal development and became dear friends. And I’ve had a couple of bosses that have hired me twice in two different jobs. So I’m always grateful for the things that other people have done for me. 

So then I want to pay it forward. When I came to Keller Williams and I was introduced to the team here, there was so much openness and willingness to share and help and support. It has been fantastic. What strikes me the most is how grateful I am for what other people have done for me. And how do I pay that back?

Bunny: I mean, this is not a podcast to plug Keller Williams. It’s really more to talk about mindset, but the place where I learned it was sitting in that training room and learning that my mindset was the secret sauce. I mean, that’s the success piece, right?

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s not just about production and everything. It’s about weight and having a sense of gratitude and contribution and a sense of abundance. And I don’t mean that in a monetary way. It could be abundance in your health or your friends or all of that kind of stuff. And I think back to you. Your experience with cancer was far worse than mine, but I did have prostate cancer about nine years ago. Everyone I worked with during that entire time when I was going for radiation every day for 10 weeks was so supportive. And then on the last day of radiation, there was this very important meeting, and everyone knew it was my last day.My whole team had a celebration for me on my last day. That was turning something that was obviously a challenging situation into something where I knew they really cared about me and supported me.

Bunny: Wow. I’m interested to hear how your mindset was in the middle of that? 

Craig: I’m just by nature, an optimistic person. So even though it was scary, I felt like I was in good hands from a medical standpoint and I just felt like I was gonna beat it. I had done the education that I needed to and then it was really about having a positive mindset. 

This is probably too much information, but I’ll say it anyway. You’re doing the radiation stripped down to your boxer shorts. And so I jokingly put this Facebook thing about the fact that I needed a new pair of boxer shorts for every day. And people started sending me underwear—different pairs of boxer shorts for every day. So while I was sitting there in the big machine, where you’re sort of in there and it’s buzzing and scanning and all that kind of stuff, it got to be kind of a joke with the techs:  “Oh , what’s he going to be wearing today?”

Bunny: I love that.

Craig: That was a way to keep my spirits up. And also during that process, I really learned how to be very focused. I was in a waiting room with people that were going through, frankly, worse things than prostate cancer. Don’t get me wrong, prostate cancer is pretty serious. It is. People die from it. But I was seeing so many other people that were having a much more challenging time than I was. And we became a family. We all bonded together during that process, because we were all waiting, sometimes for an hour. So it’s things like that. And also things like the kitchen angels service, where it helps reboot you every day for how grateful you should be in your own life and grateful for the opportunity to help other people.

Bunny: Right. There are tons of people who do get what a gift it is. People who don’t even have a specific gratitude practice, but at least an attitude every day that you’re going to figure out something. I just wrote a blog post on limiting beliefs and one of the things that I wanted to convey is that we get to choose every single moment how we view the world. And maybe for somebody out there who’s brand new in business or who’s starting a new business. I just read a statistic that said that the entrepreneur demographics are changing. And now like 48% of new entrepreneurs are over 50. So hooray for the old people! 

But I know that there are people out there right now who are thinking, “Well, I’m not any good at marketing. I’m not any good at that piece of it. I can sell stuff, but I’m not good at the marketing stuff.” I’ve got to tell you, I’m married to a guy who doesn’t believe in self promotion because he came from a generation when you played down your assets, instead of being grateful for them and talking about them. So I’d love to hear what you have to say to somebody who has that limiting belief that they can’t market. And they can’t promote themselves.

Craig: You know, we could all market ourselves, and we do it every day in our interactions.  Whether we think of it as marketing or not, we’re marketing ourselves all day long in how we react and treat other people. The thought I had as you were talking about your husband thinking self-promotion sounds like a dirty word is that it doesn’t have to be you talking  about “me, me, me” and “I did this million dollars in revenue.” This is kind of a turnoff in some ways, because you’re talking about yourself. But if you’re talking about how you can help somebody else and how you can provide a good experience for them with your information and knowledge, you’re not talking about yourself in that context. You’re talking about how you can be of service. I think that’s a much easier way for a lot of people from a generation where we weren’t really supposed to be talking about ourselves.

Bunny: Well, it was pre-social media. Our face wasn’t out there. We just weren’t trained to tell people, “Here’s the reason you should hire me instead of the other person.”

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, now we’re all our own brands on social media. But I think that rather than saying to somebody, “Here’s why you should hire me versus somebody else,” you should just talk about how you can be of service in what you do in an authentic way. Then people are more likely to want to work with you, because you’re radiating a sense of positivity and an interest in them. And they’re not thinking that you just look at them as a transaction and then you’re onto the next person.

Bunny: I frequently use with my marketing coaching clients the example of a dinner party. If you went into a dinner party (and this is for people who are just beginning in whatever business they’re in, especially if they’re self-employed), you wouldn’t simply walk in, take your coat off and say, “Hey, I’m selling something, come and talk to me.” Right? I mean, that’s what you don’t want to do with marketing. You want to start by building a relationship. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Craig: I think it goes all the way back to Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. People do like to talk about themselves. And so the first thing is you should be listening. That was one of the first things I learned in marketing client service. You need to ask questions and learn from your clients. Focus on what they need, as opposed to talking about yourself. You really want to establish a dialogue with them about their wants and needs and hopes and fears and everything else. Then you can talk about how you can address them. But nobody wants to go in and all of a sudden have you sit down and say, “Here’s my PowerPoint about me and what I’ve done.” It should be more of establishing, from the very beginning, a relationship of openness with folks. Then, after hearing from them, you can say “Well, here’s how I think I can you and here are some ideas that I have that I could share with you.” So I think a key thing is really listening from the very beginning.

Bunny: I even found that to be helpful when I used to first go on listing appointments. I was so nervous that I would sit down and I would immediately try to book an appointment. You know, if you’re not in real estate, a listing appointment is just like sitting down with a prospective customer. I would be so nervous in the beginning and really coming from a place of scarcity where I thought, “If I don’t get this listing, I’m not sure I can pay the rent next month.” And if you’re coming from a place of scarcity, you’re likely to self-sabotage. But that’s such good advice because things changed when I finally learned how to sit back and listen: “I’m here to help you. Tell me what it is that you need. Talk to me.” It’s so powerful to give a client time to talk to you. And I think people forget to do that, right?

Craig: Yeah. And I think sometimes we do it because we’re afraid. What I’ve learned so much over the years in business working with people is that people are terrified of silence, so they will immediately start talking. If there’s a second of silence, you jump in and start babbling. Lord knows I do it. But if you just let somebody talk and let it sort of sit there for a second and not just try to be filling in all the time. It drives me crazy when people are doing that. It’s much better if you can have the client talk and then ask some more questions and then be warm and reflective about it. Back to the Dale Carnegie thing, I think one of his first points was if you’re at the dinner party, ask people about themselves. Most people do like to talk about themselves. So ask them and don’t just start talking about yourself. 

Bunny: I think that even people who would say, “I don’t like to talk about myself,” really do want somebody to ask them and listen to them.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s not just asking them to go on and on. It’s more meaningful questions about, for example, why they decided to move here. Just those kinds of questions that get them thinking. Growing up in materialistic Dallas, the joke was that the questions at a party were like, “Where do you live? What do you do? What do you drive?” And so it’s not questions like that. It’s asking them more about their life experience,

Bunny: You just brought me to another completely different point, which is for any realtors out there listening: I think it’s really important to convey to your clients how grateful you are for where you live. I mean, if our lifestyle is such a selling point, don’t you think you should share that?

Craig: Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, living in Santa Fe there’s so much beauty. I’m looking out my window right now at the beautiful blue sky. When I leave my house in the morning and I see the mountains, and then when I’m coming home at night and the sun is setting over the mountains and I see all the different colors and everything, it’s just breathtaking. It’s great to live in such a great and wonderful environment and in a place that is very spiritual, going back with the native Americans—respect for the earth and nature and all of those things—I think it does help center us more than a lot of other places.

Bunny: How do you convey that to your clients? I know you’re doing something really cool online that’s different from some other realtors.

Craig: Well, I’m not just posting on my Facebook page,” Hey, I just sold this house or just sold that house.” Well, that’s great. But I’m more talking about new experiences in Santa Fe: new restaurants, or a new place to go hiking, or something exciting that’s happening at one of the museums or things like that—enthusiastically talking about the experience of living in Santa Fe. And if down the road, by the way, you’re looking at this stuff and you decide you want to buy a house here, I would love to help you. But it’s more about conveying the reason why we all want to live here

Bunny: And tell us about your blog, because I think it’s amazing.

Craig: So I created this blog, which is called Santa Fe Scenes. It’s that same kind of thing where it’s just talking about having fun in Santa Fe. One of the things was, you know, we’ve got the old Santa Fe trail and we’ve got the old Pincus trail, but did you know that we had a Margarita trail and a Chocolate trail? Stuff like that. Just being whimsical about it and talking about some of the things are unique about the city and sharing my own passion for Santa Fe. I was very fortunate to be able to do a lot of international travel for my job. I was grateful for the opportunity that I was given to see places that I wouldn’t have seen otherwise from Bogota to Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro and Beijing and places like that. So I’ve always been enthusiastic about travel and now living in such a beautiful place like Santa Fe, I want to share that enthusiasm with people.

Bunny: And you’re getting some good feedback on that I bet, right?

Craig: Yes, I am. I’m getting good feedback on it. It’s been a wonderful thing to reconnect with friends who are saying, “Good for you, you old dog! You’re back out there trying something new.” Because whenever someone says, “Oh, you’re a new realtor,” I say, “Well, I’m an old new realtor. I’m 61 and I’m starting this for the first time.” But it’s been great from that perspective and the support that you get from your friends. Then people are saying, “Oh, well, I know somebody who might be interested in sending you that information.” I think that’s one of the positive things that social media has done where we’ve been able to reconnect with so many people that we might have completely lost touch with.

Bunny: Oh yeah. I did a post not very long ago about how grateful I was, and it was in the middle of all the fear over Facebook and Twitter. And I just said that it’s such a great platform for reconnecting with cousins that I haven’t seen since I was six. I mean, I just turned 60. I’m an old dog and this is a new trick for me, but I think that if you use it the right way, it’s a real gift. I also think there are so many realtors, like you said, who just post either pictures of houses that they have listed or their accomplishments. And I think they’re really missing an opportunity.

Craig: Yeah. Because then you’re just talking at someone. You’re not sharing information and excitement about things with them. People don’t want to look at that stuff. They want to look at things like the fact that there are like six great chocolate tiers in Santa Fe. And then the next time I’m in town, I want to go to each one of them. Or discovering an amazing new hiking trail or a beautiful image of a shop window or a piece of art or something like that. 

Bunny: Yeah, it’s so much better than “I just listed this house at 123 main street. Don’t you wish you owned it?” Exactly.

Craig: Exactly. I think more people would react to it. I’d really like to have some of that green chili chocolate over at The Chocolate Smith or whatever. It’s much more interesting than a picture of a kitchen that has granite countertops. Oh my goodness.

Bunny: And, you know, Craig, I found that people will call me and they’ll say, “Well, I’ve been following you on Facebook for two years. And I feel like you’re my best friend. I think you’d be the right person to show me around and help me find a house.” And I bet that’s happening to you too.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s funny, you mentioned that. One of the people I’ve been mentoring told me a story about how she posted a lovely picture of herself and then somebody called her and said, “I feel like I already know you because you just look like a nice person and I feel like I can trust you.” I think also that it’s our eyes and our smile and everything that conveys so much of what you’re talking about. If you have a spirit of gratitude and service and a sense of abundance, not scarcity, it shows in your face, your eyes, your smile, and your whole persona.

Bunny: Well, we’re going to have to wrap up here in a minute, but I would love to hear if you have just three great tips that you would give to somebody who feels kind of stuck in their marketing. It could be what you’ve learned in 30 years or in the last three days, whatever it is.

Craig: I think one is changing your question from “How do I market myself?” to “What can I do for this client?” or “What can I do that’s going to excite the people? How can I make them feel appreciated and valued?” And this can work in cases where you’re actually working one-on-one with a client or cases where you’re trying to figure out how to promote what you’re doing. How do I find ways to surprise and delight people? So I like to do that with social media buys, where you come up with quirky, little things to talk about that are authentically Santa Fe or a funny picture of my dog or something like that. You want to put a smile on people’s faces. And social media gives us so many opportunities to be able to do that in ways that we couldn’t before. So the main thing at the end of it is to put your client first, and then I think everything else will come from there.

Bunny: You’re absolutely right. I think as long as your passion is helping people, then success is just a natural by-product of that.

Craig: Exactly. People feel that energy and then they want to tell their friends about you.

Bunny: What I’ve found is that people want to be able to trust somebody, especially in this business where they’re making possibly the biggest purchase of their life.

Craig: Right? I’m thinking back to these younger clients. We were touring houses, and they were interested in one particular house and I was like, “No, I’m not going to let you buy this. This is not the right move.” And I think all of a sudden they’re like, “Wow, he really cares. He’s not just thinking ‘Tick tock, tick tock. We’ve seen three houses.’” This is not House Hunters International where there are the three properties and you have to buy one. So again, it’s not a transaction. It’s a journey. It’s a relationship.

Bunny: I think that’s the most important tip for somebody to take away. Whether you’re selling widgets or earrings or house cars or houses, this is not a transaction. It’s a relationship. We want people to trust you and come back over and over. I don’t know how you can love your job if you’re not doing it the way we’re doing it.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. And have fun with it. We get to meet interesting people all day long. We get to see things. We get to use our own creativity to express ourselves. I know there are people that are in jobs that don’t have that. But I also read things about  the janitor in an elementary school who takes real pride in what they do, and they are going to do the best job that they possibly can. So I think in almost everything, you can come at it with a mindset of “How can I make this a great experience for me and for others?”

Bunny: That’s great stuff. Tell us where people can find you and where they can find your blog.

Craig: Well, probably the most fun thing I’m doing is the Santa Fe Scenes blog. 

Bunny: Okay. And we’ll share that on the information page for the podcast. And then, of course, if people want to buy a house from you, they can find you through there?

Craig: Yeah. All my information is on there. So one stop shop.

Bunny: Craig, I’m so excited that you were here. This was fun. I think we could do it again.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Bunny: Because I think this is the place where people get stuck. People who are self-employed get stuck in this part. And so I think there’s a lot of stuff that we can talk about.  But I’m of course really grateful that you agreed to talk with us.

Craig: Oh, thanks. It’s been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. 

Bunny: And to everybody else, thanks for being here. This is once again, the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry. You are welcome to go to my website if you’d like to learn more about me and about buying my book, which is all about gratitude and how gratitude helped me kick stage four cancer’s ass. And we’d love to have you follow us and subscribe on spot Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks so much, Craig.

Craig: Thank you. Next time.