54. Creative Gratitude: Tania Katan

Bunny: (00:10)
Welcome to the Lifesaving gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry, and I’m joined by my co-host Johanna Medina, who is also my producer. And we have a special treat for you today. Her Instagram handle is the unreal Tania Katan. And after talking to her, I agree. It’s sort of unreal. First of all, that we got her as a podcast guest because she is sort of famous out there in the world of writers and motivators. And she wrote this great book, a bestseller called creative trespassing, but I gotta tell you, I’m pretty sure you’ll agree with me, Johanna, this podcast was so much fun and so hilarious and so inspiring. There’s a lot of laughter in this one.

Johanna: (01:01)
Yeah. It’s definitely one where, uh, I know we have a lot of serious episodes and all episodes that make us cry, but this one was definitely one that made us laugh. And you, I mean, for sure, I mean, you have a, a personal relationship with Tania, but also I know you were so excited to have her on. She’s like a little celebrity for us to have on, and you’re, you’re a big fan and I am too. And it was just, it was cool to just hear her side of things and hear her talk about, um, you know, how she looks at her, not only her cancer diagnosis is her two diagnoses yes. But also her writing and, and how she kind of uses creativity and how she taps into creativity. And like, there’s so many different things in this episode that I think our listeners are really gonna love it.

Bunny: (01:53)
Yes. And it’s, you know, besides all that, besides being inspiring, it’s just hilarious was just so much fun to do. So I don’t wanna take a lot of time talking about it because it’s so good, but I just thank you so much for tuning in, for liking us, for reviewing us and for subscribing, wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, this, this is so much fun. I can’t wait for you to, to spend time with Tania Katan and Johanna and I.

Bunny: (02:27)
I’m so excited. Does that sound a little dramatic? I, it doesn’t matter because it is today, our guest is the fun and the funny and hilarious and like Uber famous, Tania Katan. And I am so honored first of all, to call her my friend my friend Jock Soto brought you to a party at my house. Isn’t that how I worked on you? It was so cool. and then, um, and then we became friends and then she became my writing coach. And, so you guys everybody’s in for a huge treat. So Tania has, this incredible background. First of all, she survived cancer twice before she was 32. And as most of you know, on this podcast, we talk a lot about survivors. So she’s, she’s sort of like the coolest and the, she she’s a big deal in the survivor world. However, that’s not it. I mean, she’s also a best selling author. She first wrote the book, my one night stand with cancer, which is if anybody can make cancer hilarious, it’s my friend, Tania. But the other book that she just wrote is this brilliant piece called creative trespassing. I’m sorry. She may have written it a long time ago, but it was recently published. And it, how to put the spark and joy back into your work and life. So I wanted, I wanna let you know that when I met Tania, she walked into the house into the party and she handed me a copy of her book and she, and her adorable, lovely, smart, artistic wife, Angela Ellsworth said to me, Hey, Bunny, it’s nice to meet you. So sorry. You’re part of the club that nobody wants to be a part of. And I re and, and we shared at that moment that we were all cancer survivors, but I have to tell you that Tania took her cancer survivorship to this whole new level. That’s really exciting. So, I’m gonna if you don’t get to the part of the story that I love the most, I’ll just prompt you along the way, but, but tell us what in the world happened that you were diagnosed at such a young age? What, tell that story.

Tania: (04:53)
I love it Bunny. And if you, if you noted, we came to celebrate the launch of your book about surviving colon cancer. And we left with a giant zucchini, the size of a small child. So sometimes when you show up for something, some unexpected turns and takes place. And then, it was such a, it was, it was, it was such a delight actually. Um, part of what we both Angela and I loved about meeting you, bunny is not only are, are you a survivor? And sometimes, you know, we can’t, we can’t decide whether or not we survive. That’s just, a happy accident. I’m sure you have plenty of friends and family as do I, who did not survive diagnoses. And, um, so we just lucked out. And what I really loved about you initially, and that has proven to be true is that you have this kind of zest and humor and, and lightness, and also curiosity about life, which when you’re dealing with cancer is, is those things are really vital. I think to have, and that was part of my, um, cancer story as well, which is, you know, I was diagnosed with breast cancer the first time at 21 years old. And this was in, um, 1992 when people, you know, young women were not being diagnosed with breast cancer. And it was still like a moment of time where you’d be around the Thanksgiving table and somebody would be like, and Velma has cancer. You know, like it was, it was talked about in hush tones. And I was just kind of coming of age. I was coming out and here I was confronted with, stage four breast cancer. And, um, at the time I was getting my degree in theater and I was focusing on playwriting. And so what I did and the one tool that I am most grateful for in my entire existence is, uh, creativity and more specifically writing. And so, because I was taking a playwriting class, uh, every weird wily thing that happened to my body as a result of being diagnosed with stage four breast cancer, you know what I was poked and proded, and went through chemotherapy and mastectomy, every moment that was uncomfortable and weird became a scene in my mind’s eye because I was cultivating, you know, writing for the stage. And I thought, well, if all the world’s stage and we’re just players, then maybe I can approach this cancer thing, um, as kind of recording my life in scenes, as it unfolded right in front of me. And so having that, that creative outlet of writing really not only helped me emotionally process what was going on, but I wrote my first play called stages when I was 21 years old and in college, and it was produced around the globe and it was actually written up in the New York times when I was a kid when I was 21 years old.

Tania: (07:50)
And I say that because cancer, wasn’t like, I thought, oh, cancer’s awesome. Like this is gonna launch my career. You know, I thought it was horrible. And, I just used creativity as a lens to process it. And then what ended up happening happening became a catalyst that launched my writing career. So that was the first time. And then fast forward, 10 years later, you know, which in the cancer community, I realize it’s a big misnomer when people are like 10 years of cancer free, like you’re done, that’s the marker piece out and that’s not necessarily true. And so I was diagnosed with a second primary breast cancer at 31. And of course my first thought was, well, two thoughts, one I’m gonna die. And two, if I don’t die, I already wrote a play. What am I gonna write? What, else could I write? And so at that point, I was like, I wanna write a memoir. And I’ve always, I’d been practicing, um, writing personal essays. But having something as significant as another cancer diagnosis really put me into high gear of like, okay, I wanna, I wanna express this in a different form. And that might be a memoir or a book, but that, but I really did, you know, when you get cancer one time and you survive, you know, it’s like, woo. But when you get cancer a second time, I felt like I was like Judith light in a lifetime original movie, you know, like I was gonna die. You know, nobody in movies gets cancer a second time and lives. And so I just was like, well, I guess I’ll need to write the movie in a version of, and in, you know, in a memoir form of, of me surviving. So, you know, that’s, those are, that’s kind of the, succinct version of a lot of cancer. And a lot of creativity in connecting

Johanna: (09:40)
Is your, was your play stages? Was that about cancer?

Tania: (09:44)
Yeah. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was about, it was totally, I mean, partially autobiographical, just kidding. But you know, like the character’s name was somebody else. It was about a young woman who was 21 who was enduring breast cancer. And, it was, and also 1992, she was exploring her sexuality. And, um, there was a kiss on stage and people were like all freaked out, like, oh my God, a lesbian kiss on stage, like Ew, whatever. And in fact, I had really great theatrical mentors at the time. Marshall Mason and Bill Hoffman, who were, they were creating contemporary theater in America. And they just happened to be at my, at my school at the time and mentored me. And they’re like, this is a great play, and we’re gonna give it to our agents and this, and I had an agent turn it down, say, this is one of the best things I’ve read. I would love to represent it, If Tanya would consider making the characters a man and a woman, because it was too lesbian was too radical. This agent quote, couldn’t get behind the lesbian lifestyle. And this agent today is the biggest lesbian…. No, I’m, I don’t know what happened. can you imagine? And that lesbian today is Rachel Maddow.

Bunny: (11:02)
No, no, no, she would’ve totally got, She would’ve been like, I, I dunno. I dunno how old she is, but Jo.. I mean, Johanna, you were two. Isn’t it hard to imagine? I mean, it seems hard for me now.

Johanna: (11:18)
Uh, no, it doesn’t seem hard to imagine because it’s still like that. So it’s not really hard to imagine at all.

Bunny: (11:24)
Well, and, and you said. I mean,

Johanna: (11:29)
I’m still waiting for a Disney lesbian kiss. So..

Tania: (11:34)
What’s a Disney lesbian kiss? I totally… That needs to be a hashtag Disney lesbian kiss. It’s when you’re on the bow of a ship and some lady in coattails and black tie, I dunno. I think, I dunno how it goes.

Bunny: (11:51)
I like that idea. Yeah. Two Disney, princesses come out. I like that. Well, and you said that creativity was your greatest, I mean, you considered that the greatest gift ever, but I mean, you were, always a creative kid. I mean, did you like become creative when you got cancer? You, I mean, you sort of cultivated that from, from when you were four, you said. Yeah.

Tania: (12:15)
Yeah. I think poverty really helped with developing imagination and I mean, that, I mean that sincerely and also jokingly, but, but the truth is, is that, you know, I grew up in poverty and for the most part with a single mommy, although my dad, it was and is awesome in the in the world. But, you know, they were really like, my parents early on were kind of just hustling, like had some kids and didn’t really plan anything and tried to figure out the best way to raise us and then were divorced pretty early on. And we were just poor and scrappy and scrambling and all that. But the one thing my mom taught me early on is she, she basically found all of these resources for us. So to attend creative summer camps for, for free, like, or she would exchange her cooking skills for us to attend a really expensive camp, you know she would teach art classes. She would get us, you know, to go to free arts and cultural festivals. So basically she showed us pretty early on that creativity had currency and currencies is what you exchange for goods, you know? And so that creativity could be a currency that we could use as well. And so, yeah, that created the foundation. And I always, I think I was sort of born DNA style with an active imagination and then having very little resources really, nudge me to, to have a whole creative life. And it’s really funny. I think I was just thinking about this recently. I think that the reason why I have been so sort of goal oriented and like high achieving is because I’ve been in financial and socioeconomic situation. And so I’ve always had to kind of like imagine and plot a way out. And now that I’m at this point in my life, I realize like, hold up, I can actually enjoy the space in between a goal and reaching it. And so there’s in the last, I’d say five years of a lot of wonderful therapy and, you know, self-help, um, on purpose, you know, seeking, um, and good teachers that I’m now learning how to really enjoy and enliven the middle space, um, which is really wonderful. So you know, basically my creativity helped me kind of imagine a better life than I was living. And now that I’m living a really great life, I am excited about what that creativity can do.

Bunny: (14:48)
Wow. Yeah. I, and, and yeah,

Johanna: (14:50)
I love that enjoying this space in between the goals that’s

Speaker 3: (14:53)
Yeah. That’s feels to be like the next book you should write, you know, like, I don’t know. I don’t know what the next book is, but. I do.

Tania: (15:07)
Sorry. Waiting for that waiting for that Disney kiss. That’s why isn’t, isn’t that the song?

Johanna: (15:16)
There you go. Now you have your soundtrack too.

Bunny: (15:18)
My Goodness. I’m turning this thing off. Well, so, I’m just gonna tell folks, I don’t know where they can find my one night stand with cancer, but that’s a great book, but, but the second book is really good. And Creative Trespassing is, you know, like I think I told you this, you know, I read it, but, you know, I read, you know, it’s sort of like, my friend gave me this book. I should read it. You know, my friend wrote this book, I should read it. And then I went back to get ready for this podcast. And I was like, holy mackerel, this is so filled with, I mean, stuff I’m grateful for. So filled with ways to, well, give us, give us a synopsis. I mean, I want folks to read it, but give us a synopsis of why you wrote the book and what you thought you were bringing to the table when you wrote it.

Tania: (16:12)
Yeah. So first of all, my One Night Stand with Cancer, the memoir there may be… I think it’s out of print, but there might be a few used copies on Amazon. Get ’em. I don’t care if they’re dog eared and stained with coffee. And so, yeah, Creative Trespassing. It came out,, penguin, random house published it in 2019. It’s still available in, in bookstores or audible. Let me read you to bed. Hi, Bunny, have a seat. no, but I did, I did get to do it. So Creative Trespassing the first of all, the title comes from the fact that I have found myself working in situations and fields that aren’t necessarily uniquely creative, um, or don’t necessarily focus on that. And yet I’ve been wildly creative and wildly successful within those fields and I’m not alone. And somebody was like, well, so like, what are you doing in technology? Or like, why are you working for museums? Or like, what are you doing in sales? Or what are you? And so I had to kind of wrap my brain about what am I doing? And it’s like, well, I’m creative and what am I doing? Well, I’m sneaking into places where I don’t belong. So that’s called trespassing. And then I started to just to learn about, hundreds. And then when I speak on stage in front of, you know, thousands of people, um, and about bringing more creativity into less overtly creative spaces work cultures and places knowing that people need creativity. And once they see it, they can’t live without it. Right. So that’s kind of the premise. And when I started speaking about creative trespassing on larger stages where companies like, Expedia or Amazon or Etsy or whatever, um, people would come up to me almost sort of sheepishly afterwards and say on the weekends, I play guitar or, you know, I’m a painter.

Tania: (18:08)
And, they would start to admit what is true about all of us as humans is that we have creativity. Creativity is our DNA. And I could talk a little bit more about that from a scientific perspective. That’s not boring AF and that when they bring their creativity to this work that is seemingly like not exciting that they actually have more fun doing it, and they’re more productive doing it. And so I realized this is like a, this is a real thing, but nobody’s really, nobody’s written about it at all, like being the Robin hood of creativity and, and, and also bringing ideas and resources from outside of the office or outside of your home inside. And I know the value of that from my clients and from myself kind of being a test subject in the world. So that’s kind of the high level creative trespassing and the, and the subtitles, how to put the spark and joy back into your work and life, which I think is, is interesting because a lot of people are like, well, I already, oh yeah, I have lost my spark joy. At least today, I need to find a pathway to bring it back in. So it’s filled with reminders and exercises as to how to do that.

Bunny: (19:17)
And those are, amazing those exercises, but we were talking about creativity and you know, the whole time you were speaking, you said, oh, you said, oh, it’s creativity. It’s in our DNA. And you were talking. And I thought, but I think there are a lot of people. Maybe you find this, Tania, I think there are a lot of people who say, I’m not creative.

Tania: (19:35)
Not creative. Right. Yeah. Because they’re responding to… There’s two kinds of creativity. We call it the, the big C and the little C and by way, I mean, scientists, authors, thinkers practices. So the big C is the one they’re responding to, which is I can’t paint. How do you expect me to dance? I’m not a dancer. It’s these sort of highly specialized areas. I’m not a creative writer. I can’t do that. Right. And that’s a skill that you develop just like anyone else. The little ‘c’ of creativity comes from, I think it was the early nineties, pat, Patricia Stokes, uh, social scientist, and academic who wanted to see what constraints would do to create, to create creativity. Okay. So she took two groups of rodents and put ’em in different rooms. And they each had the same job to push a lever. That’s it? One group of rodents had both their pause, I guess they call ’em pause. I don’t know what the hell they call rodent arms. But, one group had both their front paw and they could push it. The other group had one paw behind the back or somewhere that said they could only utilize one paw. Okay. The ones with two paws, like push the lever, push the lever, push the lever. Okay. Fine. The ones with one paw would like push the lever up top behind the back, between the legs up high down-low. They came up with hundreds of ways to push the freaking lever. And so what the, why that was a seminal study with creativity. And first of all, come on, we’re all smarter than rodents, except for some of us that’s from animal farm. But you know, so what, what it proved was is that with a constraint, you know, when we’re sort of like forced to get out of our own way or thinking that we’re not quote unquote creative, we can come up with infinite solutions for any problem. And so if you, those of you who are listening right now, and you’re like, I’m not creative. Let me ask you this. Do you solve problems every single day? Yes. And creativity just means tapping into your innate ability to find multiple solutions for any problem. And, um, that’s why constraints are really helpful. So, you know, actually Bunny and I were talking about this the other day, sometimes setting a timer for those who are like, I wanna practice writing more, but I get overwhelmed. And, then I just give up, I just take my two pause and I push the lever and I piece it out you know, setting a timer for 10 minutes and writing that whole time. And you’ll be like, oh my God, that yielded five pages of which a paragraph is interesting, but that paragraph wouldn’t have presented itself if I hadn’t written those five pages under a 10 minute timed constraint. So yeah, everybody’s creative.

Bunny: (22:24)
And I was just reminded of that because I was reminded of where I first heard that because Natalie Goldberg says that, you know, yeah. In…

Tania: (22:32)
Um, Writing Down the Bones,

Bunny: (22:33)
Writing down the bones, she says, just start, write, write for, you know, write, For 15 minutes, don’t think, let your arm go and then stop. And that was, you know, something I learned to do. I don’t know when that was 15 or 20 years ago. I don’t, you know, she’s, she was brilliant because she created constraints and we, and I had to do something with that time.

Tania: (22:55)
Yep.

Bunny: (22:56)
So, and you , I think it’s really funny that you say I’ve had these jobs that aren’t in creative endeavors. I mean, I mean, you were invited to come and work at the contemporary, the museum of contemporary art in Scottsdale. Is that not creative? I mean, I guess that’s so Interesting.

Tania: (23:18)
Well… No, well, here’s the underbelly, you know, this is the reality and why I thought it was so vital to write a book like creative trespassing for people who are embedded in companies and organizations that look like they’re creative on the outside, but a lot of times thought and form, there’s a disconnect. And so it’s finding that alignment. What are we selling art? Oh, so how do we, how do we sell it by being rigid and having rules and running a large corporately, structured organization? You know, a lot of times people kind of default to God those Puritans, sorry if the Puritan community’s listening right now. Oh sure. But, but you know, these sort of ideas of like, if we’re, if we’re not working hard enough, then it’s not, you know, then we’re not doing our job. It’s just, it’s a, a puritanical underbelly that unfortunately still exists and the industrial revolution didn’t help that. But anyways, I digress. Yeah. So yes, at one point I was hired at, Scottsdale Museum of Contemporary Art, which, is an awesome, it’s a wonderful museum. And I love everyone and still this was years ago, but they were looking, they took, took a gallery space and they wanted to break the rules of, of the museum. They didn’t know what they wanted exactly. But they wanted someone to guide the process of maybe like drinking in that gallery or, you know, alcohol, you know, or having live music or poetry or stuff that you didn’t do in other parts of the museum. And, yeah, I got a lot, so I was hired to break the rules basically, and, and not just break the rules just for the fun of it, but to invite more people in through the front doors who maybe weren’t, you know, feeling like they were seen or heard or invited into a contemporary art museum.

Tania: (25:10)
And I got, started putting together programs and, really considering who the audiences were and really excited. And I got a ton of pushback from the, from the board from some colleagues. And I also got support from people who understood that me running around with a video camera, making silly videos about like the artists and the art wasn’t necessarily. Yes, it was poking fun, but really it was poking fun at the fact that, Hey, we’re, we’re just like anybody else at the water cooler, if you thought contemporary art was unaccessible and museums were weird and austere we’re, we’re just like you, we’ve got people who are rigid and and we’ve got visionaries and we’ve got everyone in between. And so I started making a video series to expose, you know, all the wins and weirdness of working in any culture. And, people started coming in through those videos to the museum. And then I made programs that work wild and like arm wrestling for art. Like my strategy for engagement was this honestly is a to bring outsiders inside the museum to bring people ideas that were, were somehow not considered worthy of a museum inside the museum. So arm wrestling, that’s weird. That would never happen in a contemporary art museum. Let’s bring it in. And then the other strategy was the opposite. How do we, as a museum do give away art? Like, museums are all about proprietary, keeping art, archiving it, holding it tight, never letting it go. So I created a program where we literally gave museum quality art away. um, so, you know, those were the strategies I’m really interested, and that goes back to early playwriting. I remember one of my assignments as an early playwright write was write like a villain or like a bad character who has good qualities or write a, like a really like a lovely, loving character who ha is pure, has pure evil quality. So finding the inside, outside, or playing with what we think of as sort of upscale and lower class, and what, what does it all mean if we kind of turn it on its head? And that’s what I’ve always been really interested in

Bunny: (27:32)
That’s totally. Well, and is that part of the whole, I mean, when you suspend disbelief, I wanna talk about that because I want, you know, I want our listeners to suspend their own disbelief it’s so seems like such a, such a hard thing to do for yourself and yet, so essential.

Tania: (27:51)
Mm. Yeah. Well, another foundational thing I learned in theater school and it’s the principle suspension of disbelief is this, is that anybody who’s listening right now? Have you gone to the movies? Yes, I know. I hear you in my mind’s like have you read a book? Yes. Have you gone to a play? Yeah. Dance performance? What, yeah. Okay. So the point is when you suspend disbelief, you arrive at the play or at the movie theater, and you agree there’s sort of a like cosmic contract that you are gonna suspend all, um, perceptions and assumptions about the world outside of the theater. You’ll just leave it there. And together in the dark, you are willing to jump into an unknown world together and experience this story of the protagonist on the screen as if it’s really happening. No matter if that protagonist is flying in the sky or, or something, we suspend disbelief so that we can dive into new worlds together. And so that’s a principle for engaging in art, but it’s a principle like a founding principle for my book and practice of creative trespassing, which is if I believed that someone with a theater degree could not work in technology, then I really limit my options. Don’t I, but if I suspend disbelief and I say, Hey, a few of us have signed up and we believe that you can figure this out and we can take a leap of faith together and, um, and do something unknown and be okay with the results, because we’re curious and excited and like leap. And so that’s the guiding principle for anything I do really is. I like something challenging, something that feels weird, something that requires me to leave my assumptions and perceptions at the door in order to enter. So, yeah.

Bunny: (29:39)
And you did that when you went to work for a tech company, right? Axosoft what was the name, What was the name of that place?

Tania: (29:44)
It was called Axosoft. I don’t know if they call them that anymore. It’s been a long, it’s been a long time now. Um, yeah, so yeah, there was a software company, a small one in Arizona, several years ago now 2015, who was interested in me becoming an evangelist for them. And I thought that was a religious zealot position, and I was very excited about that, but it turns out it was just selling it. No. But, in all seriousness, I had a meeting with the CEO at the time and, um, she tried to explain like what, like an evangelist was ish, cuz she was kind of new to technology. And so we were both new to technology yet. She was the CEO of this tech company. And, she’s just like, you know, we’ve seen you around town kind of hosting these events and doing all these creative things through the museum, the Scottsdale museum, contemporary art. And we just think you’d be like cool to be a part of like our team and maybe this role. And we don’t really know what it is and it’s evolving and maybe you could evolve with it. And it was a moment where I was doing very, very well with Scottsdale museum, contemporary art, all the programs I’d launched were successful by like five different metrics. I was happy people, there was traction with people who were coming into the museum. And so I’m like, that’s the best time to leave. I love leaving when I’m ahead because a lot of times in my twenties, my left while I was behind and uh, so it felt, feels real. So I took a leap of faith and so did this CEO and we decided that even though neither of us really knew a lot about technology, we, we would leap into our creative skills and try to figure out what this role might be and how we might work together. Um, and so that was kind of the beginning of the first month on the job, I was like, uh, okay, so what am I evangelizing about? Which is really just going on stage and telling stories about the software that resonate with people emotionally and intellectually make them buy it and um, I’m like, okay, so what’s this really cool software. And she’s like, well, you know, it’s like B2B it’s SAS. And I was just like, what the..? I don’t know. Can I say?

Bunny: (32:02)
That’s Up to Johanna. I love It.

Tania: (32:03)
So I was like WTF, B2B SAS, like sass is what my sister has, like beat it, like what it’s software as a service. Anyway, it was like, she was saying all this stuff that literally, I didn’t know any of the language. I didn’t know what that meant nothing. And I doubted my value at that job. And then during, the second month of my, of my job, I started to learn about the, so the software and all that kind of stuff. And um, and then she came to my colleague, Sarah myself, and said, um, we’re gonna host an event. It’s like a girls in technology event. I wanna show up in a big way. It’s like come up with ideas. And I was just like, okay. And so, you know, I mean the idea was basically we’re showing up at a women in technology event and this is 2015 and it there’s a pipeline issue. There aren’t a lot of women in the tech space or being invited in women are distinctly and non-binary folks are distinctly outsiders at this time. And so, you know, come up with an idea to what to show that women, you know, are valuable, um, skilled, awesome people to be invited into this space. So at first this is the real deal, buddy, cuz I know you don’t want stuff that I’ve said on other podcasts, the reality of this situation, I’m gonna tell you, I’m gonna tell you the reality. Tell us the reality. The reality was this is that my boss at the time was like, because we would have a, at this conference, it was small. Like maybe there are 300 people in attendance, we’d have a little card table, two card tables. One would be a software developer showing, you know, with a computer showing what our software did.

Tania: (33:46)
And on the other little card table, we could do something fun for women. So some of the ideas that were popcorned around and I’m not saying who came up with them, cotton candy, that’s pink. Oh, OK. Necklaces, da, da, da. So, you know, I mean, and let’s just say since I’m like definitely I’ve adopted the term non-binary for myself, but before that definitely a Man-ish lady, not typical in any sort of traditional puritanical lady way. Um, and so I was just like, well that just, you know, when we started this conversation, we were talking about a alignment, you know, you were saying like, how can you work in a creative space then it’s and the output’s creative and the organization’s not run creatively. And so I felt kind of a disconnect between what it meant to empower women, this sort of task or this, um, solution my boss was looking for and cotton candy or necklaces. I just didn’t understand how we could empower. So to me, my job became well, how do we empower people to see women as you know, and listen to women and, and really, show women sort of a reflection, which is we are powerful superheroes and by superheroes, I don’t mean, you know, we’re, we’re getting up and scaling to all buildings. I mean, sometimes we’re just getting up sometimes, you know, like the moms who are listening in my single mom, sometimes you’re working three jobs to take care of your children and you’re just making ends meet that’s a superhero. And so that became the task for me or the, the search for alignment, um, with empowering women and, and how, what that looks like. And so anyway, and also I wanted to prove my value cuz I was getting paid more than in my nonprofit job. And I’m like, I gotta come up with a solution cause you’re gonna fire me. Cause I dunno what an evangelist is…cotton candy…. agghh!

Tania: (35:48)
So I did, I did go for a walk and I started thinking about women in the tech space and women in so many different spaces and how we’re not seen, heard or celebrated for the superheroes we are and in my mind’s eye as I’m walking, because walking super generative for me. And I could talk more about that later from a scientific perspective. Yes. and you know. The symbol of the bathroom lady popped into my head and uh, those who are listening, you’ve seen her maybe a couple times today, she’s got a triangle for a dress and a circle for a head. And she is everywhere in the world. That lady gets around and I knew that she was easily recognizable across cultures and gender and, and that was it. So I came back to my desk and I was like a pen and paper. I drew her out and I’m not a good drawer, but I could do a circle in a triangle. And um, I kept looking at that, the shape of the dress, like it’s a triangle and yes, it’s a dress, but other things are triangles too. And so I, as the more I looked at it, I’m like I convinced myself that she was wearing a Cape. And then I felt like a crazy person, cuz I was older than everyone by five and a half years. And you know, like that, the difference between like your twenties and thirties and me was like, oh my God, old lady. So I went to my colleague, Sarah and I think she’s wearing a Cape and then Sarah’s like good for you. so I, I printed out the women’s bathroom vector and with a pen and a prayer made literally five lines.

Tania: (37:18)
And then she was there. It was like, we had been looking at her back this whole time when in front she was wearing a Cape. And when I showed her to Sarah, Sarah flipped out and she was like, it was never a dress. And I’m like, what? And so that’s um, then we, we launched this, this campaign, um, to empower women, not with cotton candy, but with capes instead. And by launch a campaign that sounds really lofty. And like there were millions of dollars put into it. It was the idea I worked with the graphic designer to, he made, um, to, to refine it, to show the bathroom symbol next to the new bathroom symbol with her Cape on. And then we made stickers and I gave a talk about gender equity and parody at this conference. We handed out the stickers and within 24 hours the, it was never dressed. Campaign went viral, every major media outlet in the worlds. Think everyone, I saw that way before I met you. So totally of course you, I didn’t know. That was you you, you know, you know, it’s, you know, an idea has gotten like bigger and bigger than you could have imagined. When I would remember the first time I went through TSA when it become like, like literally hundreds of millions of people know this, like yeah, got stickers. So I was going through the TSA and I had my little sticker on my bag. My was never dressed sticker. And the TAs agent’s like, oh yeah, I have one of those. And it got one for my, it was like in some random city. And at that moment, I was like, I was so excited and I’m like, well, you know, like I had something to do with it. And it was so big that she was just like, didn’t even hear me. And at that point, which is great. And at that point I realized, you know, the biggest ideas are the ones that, that people embrace as their own in the ways that they need to, you know, empower themselves and generate other ideas too. Like, so it was a really fun, fun ride.

Johanna: (39:11)
That is awesome. I didn’t, I did not know that. That’s so cool.

Tania: (39:15)
Yep.

Bunny: (39:17)
Well, and did, I mean, I hate to circle back wrap. I’m not wrapping up, but you, you sort of did have to suspend disbelief for that to work. I mean, you know, it’s, she was no longer just a girl wearing a dress. I hate to oversimplify, but that’s

Tania: (39:36)
Well, yeah. I mean, I think the practice is, is this the, the, the practice that anybody has access to, who’s listening that I’ve trained in because I am a big C artist and a little C um, a little, ‘c’ creative, is flexing your creative problem, solving muscles and taking risks to share the outcome on any scale. And that becomes easier. You know, it’s like, it’s like writing Bunny, you know, when I’m sure when you were writing your book, you know, you wrote a piece and maybe you shared a little bit with someone or you shared the fact that I have this idea or whatever. And, um, and it’s scary, but you know what it what’s scarier is not writing your book. What’s scarier is keeping is if I had said, oh man, yeah, this might be a good idea, but I don’t know, it needs to be perfect. And there are technology, this is an analog idea. Like if I kept that to myself, instead of practicing, just sharing it and lowering the stakes of what could happen, what’s the worst that can happen. Like, you know, nothing, I get feedback, that’s it that’s, you know, that’s, that’s all. So, so the suspension of disbelief just means showing up, practicing what you love to practice and sharing it with people periodically on any scale, because that risk in getting it outside of your notebook or outside of your brain, will yield information that will help you make it better tinker with it, bigger, make it serve people beyond you and your notebook.

Bunny: (41:09)
Well, and so I you know… I want everybody to pick up this book and read it because those little tips, those exercises that you give, like, you know, I love the idea of having pen pals. I mean, I think it was saved the world. If we all had a pen pal that’s that’s in the book, but, um, I really wanted to read this piece unlimited beliefs because I am the queen. I think we all are the queen of limiting beliefs, but I wanted to read this piece that you wrote because it was so true and I wanna share it. And, I just want you say in your book that limiting beliefs are the number one silent killer of creativity, more deadly than flying cockroaches, giving a speech to a crowd of thousands in your underwear. You know, the ones with the disintegrated elastic band or running into your bus on a Saturday while high . When we cling to the belief of how things that, how things are, is how they will always be. We get trapped in a mental prison of our own making. But when we believe that logic and limits are subject to change, then the world is full of possibilities. And I think that’s it for, I mean, if, if you just put aside your limit beliefs, I mean, I Johanna posted for me just this week that I still sometimes think that I’m this chubby little farm girl from Eastern New Mexico. Who’s not smart enough to think her way out of a box. Certainly not out of the village that I grew up in. And if I still believed that I wouldn’t be here talking to Tania Katan so…

Johanna: (42:46)
Well, I was just gonna say when Tanya started telling the story about, um, switching to that job in tech, um, I could tell you seem like you get really energized by the challenge and, or, you know, it’s exciting to you. And for me, I could just feel the anxiety, just thinking about going to a job where they’re like, well, it’s a program, but you have to develop it. And we don’t know what it is like that would give me so much anxiety. I just wouldn’t even do it. But now like hearing the full story, I’m thinking, well, what if, what if that was me? And what if I hadn’t or if Tania hadn’t taken that leap, like this whole thing never would’ve happened. And so now I’m kind of like, alright, you gotta kinda, you just kinda gotta step past the anxiety, I guess, and get outta that.

Tania: (43:30)
Johanna, That’s actually, it’s really great that you said that because you said the phrase that I there’s the biggest gift and tool for anybody listening, which is what if and, um, what if is the question and tool you can have in your back pocket? And it allows for possibilities beyond this moment in time, beyond that moment, when you’re feeling anxiety about taking a leap into a new job or pursuing the book, you’ve always wanted to write or getting a coach because you’re ready to like explode. What if? And so it’s like, well, what if I took a leap of faith and became an evangelist and decided that’s just weird and I’m scared and I can acquit no big deal. Right? Well, what if I learned something new? What if I… So, you know, I’d encourage everybody to utilize this question when considering making move. And, you know, recently I actually did a PechaKucha or PA Chacha as the kids say for, um, it was in relation with, uh, creative Santa Fe and site Santa Fe. And so I, I gave this talk and the theme was flux, and the thrust of my talk was about making change uncertainty and flux my co-pilots in life. And that started with cancer because the reality, the only, the only constant we have is change. Change is literally the only thing that exists period. So we have a choice as to how we interact with change. Do we let it jerk us around or like take us by the hair and just sort of swing us around the room or do we say, oh, change is my co I love change. Change is great. In fact, and when I make peace with change and I work with change and uncertainty and flux, then we become a force, then there’s acceleration. And I would, I would say that anybody that, you know, anybody, um, that you love or inspires, or you, or you admire has embraced change and uncertainty and flux as their co-pilots as well. It’s just a practice. It’s just, it’s literally a, a practice. The more times you do something. So, yes, I love doing it. I didn’t love doing challenging things when I was little, I wanted safety, comfort and security. Those that’s all I wanted. And so out of necessity, I had to, I had to go and do things in order to make safety, security, and, you know, happen for myself. But I didn’t seek out change necessarily. But then I realized, oh, it’s fun when I’m, when I pick change on purpose, as opposed to it picking me when I’m, you know, that it, so it becomes a practice for sure.

Bunny: (46:12)
Mm-hmm well, and you quoted somebody else in the book that you, when Johanna was talking about her fears, I thought, wait, wait, wait, because that great quote that, that you quoted somebody else that said my value in the world is greater than my fears. And I thought that’s so, I mean, sometimes we just, we just have to set those aside.

Tania: (46:31)
Yeah. That was from Stacy Kirk, who is the CEO of quality works consulting group. And Stacy and I met because we were both giving talks at a tech conference, her legitimately me illegitimately . Um, yeah. And Stacy, uh, is that quote also not just impacted me and, and now you, and probably thousands of other people. Um, but we were in this space when she said that and, and our, the fellow speakers and attendees of this, um, TechWell conference were just blown away and it became kind of our mantra for the time we were there and beyond that time. So, um, yeah, lucky, lucky all of us to learn that from Stacy Kirk.

Bunny: (47:18)
So if there was one, I mean, I think that might have been it, but if there, there was one piece of the book that you would say, you gotta pick this up and read it. Cause I have about a hundred. I mean, what, I mean, we, we talk to people all the time who are trying to live their life better and bigger and more creatively. And yet, you know, mm-hmm, , they’re like me, I mean, we had this conversation last week, they’re bogged down in change and they feel like they’re getting jerked around bio what’s the thing what’s today.

Tania: (47:46)
Well, I’d say that I don’t have a mental Rolodex of the book anymore. I gave that up for more brain space, but I will say that, two things, one, uh, creativity is job security . And so I’ve really been thinking about… As I’ve been reflecting on this book that I wrote a couple of years ago, you know, it, the cool thing about creating some ideas and exercises that are expansive is that they can grow with what’s happening in the world. And so I, you know, I couldn’t help, but think of, you know, the great resignation and I think everybody should be reading creative trespassing if they want to find meaningful work, no matter what place or space they’re in, it’s that you bring the meaning with you as opposed to, you know, expect for the meaning to be there. Otherwise, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna bring my whole self to work that challenge you to read the book and, um, and find the creativity that’s in your DNA. That’s your birthright and bring it with you into every situation. And I dare you not to have a joyful time on this earth. I double dare you.

Bunny: (49:02)
Well, as I said, in the email I sent you, there are, there are like a thousand other ideas in here I want to explore, but what I wanted, what I, what I really wanna tell folks is that I am so grateful that I had that party and that you showed up and on the zucchini. And, I’m, you know, we are learning. I mean, I think that’s, that’s some of what I got out of the book is that, man, if you, if you’re learning every day, if you’re opening yourself up to creativity, if you’re going for walks, which I thought was brilliant. I mean, you said that to me long ago, when I said I cannot make myself. Right. And you said, go for a walk, which is the answer to everything. Right.

Tania: (49:46)
Well, yeah. I mean, I said it for two reasons. I not just cuz it’s like fun for me, which I love it’s totally it’s um, Stanford actually did a study on walking on the impact of walking and creativity and um, and so it, it really, it does improve your creativity. I think it’s like some crazy like by 40%. Um, so that’s why I’m a happy board member of the museum of walking. What’s that, oh, there’ll be a link and you’ll check it out and it changes. It basically turns the world into a museum. All you have to do is leave your home.

Bunny: (50:20)
Well, thank you my friend. I think I’ll go for a walk now.

Tania: (50:23)
Yeah. Yeah. You’re welcome. Thank you Bunny. Thank you so much. Thank you, Johanna.

Bunny: (50:26)
That’s all we’ve got today friends. I wanna thank you for joining the life saving gratitude podcast with your host Bunny Terry that’s me and my producer and assistant Johanna Medina. We feel like we’re in the business of sharing the stories that save us and we hope you’ll share as well by letting your friends and family know about the podcast follow and like us wherever you listed. And please take the time to leave a review. Whether it’s a stellar comment or a suggestion, we are open to suggestions all the time. Also follow us on Instagram at life saving gratitude pod. You can also follow me personally at Bunny Terry, Santa Fe. You can sign up my website at bunnyterry.com to receive weekly emails about how to become the ultimate gratitude nerd. Thanks so much for checking in.

Bunny: Hi everyone. This is Bunny with the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. Just in case you don’t know me, I am a stage four colon cancer survivor and the author of Lifesaving Gratitude, which is a book about how gratitude helped me kick cancer’s ass. 

Today we’re going to talk to a special guest about how marketing and marketers can use gratitude to create business and connections with clients and also for themselves to create a really positive way to do their job. But first, I just want to thank you for being here and ask that you download the podcast if you’d like. And certainly subscribe wherever you listen to other podcasts. But enough about me and enough about the podcast. 

I want to introduce you to my special guest, who’s also a friend. Craig Cunningham is currently a realtor with Keller Williams, Santa Fe. And that’s how I met him. However, this is a recent career for him and he was, and correct me if I mispronounce the word, but you were a hotelier. Is that the way to say that?

Craig: Yes. 

Bunny: Yes. He’s spent 30 years in corporate sales and marketing. He’s traveled extensively. I’m going to let him tell you all the places that he’s been to, but he is the founder and principal of Cunningham + Colleagues marketing consultants. He was in the past the VP of marketing and quality for Seaport Hotels and World Centers and the VP of marketing for Core North America. So welcome Craig Cunningham.

Craig: Thanks so much for having me on your podcast.

Bunny: I’m excited. I know you have some great tips for all of our listeners. When I think about these podcasts, I always think about the people that are going to want the information we’re offering. I mean, we’re here to help people and we’re here to figure out how gratitude can make everyone’s life not just easier and simpler, but also fuller. So why don’t you start, Greg? Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us how in the world you ended up in this completely different career? And yet the truth is we’re still just marketers first and realtors, second. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell our listeners.

Craig: Yeah. So, as you said, I’ve been in marketing and sales for more than 30 years. I actually started off with an advertising and PR agency and then had the good fortune to be hired by my hotel client at the time, Wyndham hotels. At that time it was a North American chain and it’s now international. 

But from then on, I was in the hotel business. It’s definitely a career where if you are not focused on client service and the whole concept of gratitude, you’re not going to be successful. I always thought of our job as just surprising and delighting our guests and making them feel like they chose the right hotel to be with. And so it was always about waking up every day and saying, “What can I do to make somebody’s day and to give them a great experience?” And, of course, to do this you have to be grateful because they opted to choose your hotel over the million other choices that they had. 

So when I retired from the hotel business two years ago, I was trying to figure out what else I wanted to do with my life. I started doing more volunteering. I volunteer with Kitchen Angels here in Santa Fe to deliver meals to people who are not able to leave their homes. But I also started thinking of whether I wanted to do something else from a professional standpoint and the real estate business seemed like a natural extension, because it’s all about client service. You have to figure out ways to make people feel like they’ve made the right choice in working with you. So it’s all about being grateful every day and figuring out what can I do to help them today. How else can I extend what I’m doing for them in a way that they will appreciate and know that I appreciate them. So that’s what it’s really all about, because of course they could work with a million other other people

Bunny: Right. And let’s talk for just a second. Don’t you think that marketing has changed over the 30 years that you’ve been doing this? I mean, it seems to me that when we were kids, which was back before the crust cooled, we were sort of marketed at. Just talk for a minute about how marketing is different now than it was 10 years ago or 30 years ago.

Craig: It’s funny, because I was going to say the exact same thing. Back in the day, you were running a TV ad or a radio spot or a print ad and it was passive in that you just presented the information, unless you were direct sales. But really with the advent of so much digital media, you are instantly able to forge a relationship with customers through social media, through Facebook, Instagram, where you’re having a dialogue with them from the very beginning. This allows you to work in a much more personal way and to be able to find out much more quickly how you can serve those people. 

So I think it’s changed completely. Before you just sort of put it out there into the ether and hope that something worked, and now you’re able to engage. And I’ve found that so much in real estate where I’m getting emails from folks and then it evolves from the email into a phone call or a zoom call or something like that instantly. I think that’s so much better for both people. Especially for somebody like me who wants to find ways to engage with people and to be of service to them, it makes it a lot easier and more rewarding.

Bunny: I just think about the ways that I connect with my clients. It’s as if you’re somehow conveying to those people that you’re grateful that they showed up.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, my whole thought is that it’s not a transaction, it’s a relationship. And that relationship can be multifaceted. Once you’ve sold them a house or sold their house, I like to think that we’ve formed a friendship and a bond and that relationship is going to continue. And honestly, I don’t even care if I ever get another piece of business for them. Now think of them as friends. I want to have them to my house for dinner or go have coffee or something like that. 

I think that kind of thing that makes a difference for people in wanting to work with me.  It’s coming from a position of wanting to be of service to them and wanting to make them happy and finding the right solution for them. I’m working with some first-time-buyers right now and I kind of feel like they’re my kids. It’s about, okay, how can I really help them with this? And they’re grateful for the counsel I’m able to give to them, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to work with them. So it’s very rewarding. I think if you approach business relationships in the same way as you would with your friends, it’s a win-win situation for everybody.

Bunny: Well, talking about those first-time home buyers, I mean, that’s one of my favorite deals. You never make the most money from those transactions, but I’m so grateful to be reminded that we are providing the American dream when we’re selling real estate. Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s my favorite experience.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, for somebody to have their first home and to be excited about how they’re going to decorate it and what they’re going to do. And with this young couple, seeing them excited when they see a house brings out all my empathy and makes me want to really go the extra mile for them to make sure they find the right house at the right price for them. And then I just never want to stop. So then it’s like, “Okay, now I’m going to find this person for you to do the plumbing, and I’m going to find this person, etc, and I’ll be with you with you  to help explain things.” I just want to really continue to be of service.

Bunny: I talk a lot, especially on my blog, about Judy Camp, who was one of my first real estate mentors. She was a great friend and Linda Gammons partner for a long time before she passed away. But Judy Camp always says, “If you come from contribution, you can’t help but be successful.”

Craig: Yeah. I mean, just as I was saying, you can’t think of it as a transaction. I think, coming from contribution, how can I help you? How can I make this a better experience? How can I make this work? Because, especially in a real estate transaction, it can be stressful. It’s the biggest financial transaction for the majority of us. So how do you take the burden and the pressure away from them and sort of guide them through the process? I just think the main thing is that it’s much more fun, whether you’re doing volunteer work or in business, to wake up every day and figure out how I could make it fun for somebody else. Because then it’s fun for you and it gets you excited and passionate about what you’re doing.

Bunny: Well, it sounds like our big “why’s” are really similar. I certainly don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but it sounds like your big “why” is just to make the life of the people you come in contact with better.

Craig: Yeah. Of course making money is nice, but there are lots of ways to make money. It’s more about whether you are getting energy from it. And I think you really get energy when you’re working with someone and trying to figure out how you can help them, how you can make their day better, how you can make the service that you’re providing better. And also just doing things that saying, “What about if I do X, Y, Z?” and they’re  like, “Oh, you’ll do that for me?” And I’m like, “Of course.”

I have another set of clients where the transaction was fairly complicated and we were looking at lots of properties. Coming from a corporate background, I love to do spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations—things like that. And so after about the third thing we had to do, they’re like, “Oh, how are we going to organize all these bids?”  And then one of the guys said to the other guy, “Well, Craig’s going to do a spreadsheet for us. He’s probably already got it done.” So it’s that kind of thing where you’re looking for ways to make their experience better.

Bunny: So this is always a funny question for me to ask, because I have such a loose gratitude practice other than just waking up in the morning and saying, “thank you, thank you, thank you,” and then writing things down, but do you have a practice that you follow that helps you both in your business and your personal life?

Craig: Well, since I came into real estate with Keller Williams, which focuses a lot on being servant leaders and helping people, I’ve gotten into the habit of writing three things I’m grateful for that day. It could be that it’s a beautiful day or a dog or my partner or the opportunity to help somebody or the coffee’s really good that day, but waking up and appreciating what you have in your life is a good way to get in a good mindset for the rest of it.

Bunny: Oh, absolutely. Something I always say is that we kind of rewire our brains. We do. We create new neural pathways every time we say that we’re grateful. So in terms of nuts and bolts, is there a way that you let your clients know? I mean, I find that there are a lot of young people, young entrepreneurs or people who are new to business, who forget how to tell their clients how they’re grateful for them, even if it’s a line in an email. Do you have something that you do specifically over and over?

Craig: I think for me, it’s maybe more in the actions. I think of “This is really going to be helpful if I do this or if I provide this information.” I think it’s always in my voice and the way that I write. I try to always communicate openly and in a friendly and conversational manner. But then I also think “It would be really cool and really helpful if I did X , Y , Z.” I created a whole PowerPoint just on the neighborhoods in Santa Fe, because if you’re out of town it gets confusing. And that came out of a client saying, “Well, I don’t really know the neighborhoods.” And I thought that this would be a great tool for them. So I created it and then I was able to use it with others. 

So I think for me, maybe it’s sort of on the fly. I used to say in the hotel hotel business, “How can I make this a wow experience?” Because the other way to think about it is that every relationship is with people. When you’re in a service business you’re really in the business of creating memories. You can create good memories or you can create bad memory and it’s much more fun to create good memories.

Bunny: And that just comes from a spirit of generosity. I mean, you obviously want this to be the best real estate experience they’ve ever had.

Craig: Right. Right. I’m very grateful for the people that have helped me along the way. I’ve been very fortunate in my career to always work for people who were concerned about my career development and my personal development and became dear friends. And I’ve had a couple of bosses that have hired me twice in two different jobs. So I’m always grateful for the things that other people have done for me. 

So then I want to pay it forward. When I came to Keller Williams and I was introduced to the team here, there was so much openness and willingness to share and help and support. It has been fantastic. What strikes me the most is how grateful I am for what other people have done for me. And how do I pay that back?

Bunny: I mean, this is not a podcast to plug Keller Williams. It’s really more to talk about mindset, but the place where I learned it was sitting in that training room and learning that my mindset was the secret sauce. I mean, that’s the success piece, right?

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s not just about production and everything. It’s about weight and having a sense of gratitude and contribution and a sense of abundance. And I don’t mean that in a monetary way. It could be abundance in your health or your friends or all of that kind of stuff. And I think back to you. Your experience with cancer was far worse than mine, but I did have prostate cancer about nine years ago. Everyone I worked with during that entire time when I was going for radiation every day for 10 weeks was so supportive. And then on the last day of radiation, there was this very important meeting, and everyone knew it was my last day.My whole team had a celebration for me on my last day. That was turning something that was obviously a challenging situation into something where I knew they really cared about me and supported me.

Bunny: Wow. I’m interested to hear how your mindset was in the middle of that? 

Craig: I’m just by nature, an optimistic person. So even though it was scary, I felt like I was in good hands from a medical standpoint and I just felt like I was gonna beat it. I had done the education that I needed to and then it was really about having a positive mindset. 

This is probably too much information, but I’ll say it anyway. You’re doing the radiation stripped down to your boxer shorts. And so I jokingly put this Facebook thing about the fact that I needed a new pair of boxer shorts for every day. And people started sending me underwear—different pairs of boxer shorts for every day. So while I was sitting there in the big machine, where you’re sort of in there and it’s buzzing and scanning and all that kind of stuff, it got to be kind of a joke with the techs:  “Oh , what’s he going to be wearing today?”

Bunny: I love that.

Craig: That was a way to keep my spirits up. And also during that process, I really learned how to be very focused. I was in a waiting room with people that were going through, frankly, worse things than prostate cancer. Don’t get me wrong, prostate cancer is pretty serious. It is. People die from it. But I was seeing so many other people that were having a much more challenging time than I was. And we became a family. We all bonded together during that process, because we were all waiting, sometimes for an hour. So it’s things like that. And also things like the kitchen angels service, where it helps reboot you every day for how grateful you should be in your own life and grateful for the opportunity to help other people.

Bunny: Right. There are tons of people who do get what a gift it is. People who don’t even have a specific gratitude practice, but at least an attitude every day that you’re going to figure out something. I just wrote a blog post on limiting beliefs and one of the things that I wanted to convey is that we get to choose every single moment how we view the world. And maybe for somebody out there who’s brand new in business or who’s starting a new business. I just read a statistic that said that the entrepreneur demographics are changing. And now like 48% of new entrepreneurs are over 50. So hooray for the old people! 

But I know that there are people out there right now who are thinking, “Well, I’m not any good at marketing. I’m not any good at that piece of it. I can sell stuff, but I’m not good at the marketing stuff.” I’ve got to tell you, I’m married to a guy who doesn’t believe in self promotion because he came from a generation when you played down your assets, instead of being grateful for them and talking about them. So I’d love to hear what you have to say to somebody who has that limiting belief that they can’t market. And they can’t promote themselves.

Craig: You know, we could all market ourselves, and we do it every day in our interactions.  Whether we think of it as marketing or not, we’re marketing ourselves all day long in how we react and treat other people. The thought I had as you were talking about your husband thinking self-promotion sounds like a dirty word is that it doesn’t have to be you talking  about “me, me, me” and “I did this million dollars in revenue.” This is kind of a turnoff in some ways, because you’re talking about yourself. But if you’re talking about how you can help somebody else and how you can provide a good experience for them with your information and knowledge, you’re not talking about yourself in that context. You’re talking about how you can be of service. I think that’s a much easier way for a lot of people from a generation where we weren’t really supposed to be talking about ourselves.

Bunny: Well, it was pre-social media. Our face wasn’t out there. We just weren’t trained to tell people, “Here’s the reason you should hire me instead of the other person.”

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, now we’re all our own brands on social media. But I think that rather than saying to somebody, “Here’s why you should hire me versus somebody else,” you should just talk about how you can be of service in what you do in an authentic way. Then people are more likely to want to work with you, because you’re radiating a sense of positivity and an interest in them. And they’re not thinking that you just look at them as a transaction and then you’re onto the next person.

Bunny: I frequently use with my marketing coaching clients the example of a dinner party. If you went into a dinner party (and this is for people who are just beginning in whatever business they’re in, especially if they’re self-employed), you wouldn’t simply walk in, take your coat off and say, “Hey, I’m selling something, come and talk to me.” Right? I mean, that’s what you don’t want to do with marketing. You want to start by building a relationship. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Craig: I think it goes all the way back to Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. People do like to talk about themselves. And so the first thing is you should be listening. That was one of the first things I learned in marketing client service. You need to ask questions and learn from your clients. Focus on what they need, as opposed to talking about yourself. You really want to establish a dialogue with them about their wants and needs and hopes and fears and everything else. Then you can talk about how you can address them. But nobody wants to go in and all of a sudden have you sit down and say, “Here’s my PowerPoint about me and what I’ve done.” It should be more of establishing, from the very beginning, a relationship of openness with folks. Then, after hearing from them, you can say “Well, here’s how I think I can you and here are some ideas that I have that I could share with you.” So I think a key thing is really listening from the very beginning.

Bunny: I even found that to be helpful when I used to first go on listing appointments. I was so nervous that I would sit down and I would immediately try to book an appointment. You know, if you’re not in real estate, a listing appointment is just like sitting down with a prospective customer. I would be so nervous in the beginning and really coming from a place of scarcity where I thought, “If I don’t get this listing, I’m not sure I can pay the rent next month.” And if you’re coming from a place of scarcity, you’re likely to self-sabotage. But that’s such good advice because things changed when I finally learned how to sit back and listen: “I’m here to help you. Tell me what it is that you need. Talk to me.” It’s so powerful to give a client time to talk to you. And I think people forget to do that, right?

Craig: Yeah. And I think sometimes we do it because we’re afraid. What I’ve learned so much over the years in business working with people is that people are terrified of silence, so they will immediately start talking. If there’s a second of silence, you jump in and start babbling. Lord knows I do it. But if you just let somebody talk and let it sort of sit there for a second and not just try to be filling in all the time. It drives me crazy when people are doing that. It’s much better if you can have the client talk and then ask some more questions and then be warm and reflective about it. Back to the Dale Carnegie thing, I think one of his first points was if you’re at the dinner party, ask people about themselves. Most people do like to talk about themselves. So ask them and don’t just start talking about yourself. 

Bunny: I think that even people who would say, “I don’t like to talk about myself,” really do want somebody to ask them and listen to them.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s not just asking them to go on and on. It’s more meaningful questions about, for example, why they decided to move here. Just those kinds of questions that get them thinking. Growing up in materialistic Dallas, the joke was that the questions at a party were like, “Where do you live? What do you do? What do you drive?” And so it’s not questions like that. It’s asking them more about their life experience,

Bunny: You just brought me to another completely different point, which is for any realtors out there listening: I think it’s really important to convey to your clients how grateful you are for where you live. I mean, if our lifestyle is such a selling point, don’t you think you should share that?

Craig: Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, living in Santa Fe there’s so much beauty. I’m looking out my window right now at the beautiful blue sky. When I leave my house in the morning and I see the mountains, and then when I’m coming home at night and the sun is setting over the mountains and I see all the different colors and everything, it’s just breathtaking. It’s great to live in such a great and wonderful environment and in a place that is very spiritual, going back with the native Americans—respect for the earth and nature and all of those things—I think it does help center us more than a lot of other places.

Bunny: How do you convey that to your clients? I know you’re doing something really cool online that’s different from some other realtors.

Craig: Well, I’m not just posting on my Facebook page,” Hey, I just sold this house or just sold that house.” Well, that’s great. But I’m more talking about new experiences in Santa Fe: new restaurants, or a new place to go hiking, or something exciting that’s happening at one of the museums or things like that—enthusiastically talking about the experience of living in Santa Fe. And if down the road, by the way, you’re looking at this stuff and you decide you want to buy a house here, I would love to help you. But it’s more about conveying the reason why we all want to live here

Bunny: And tell us about your blog, because I think it’s amazing.

Craig: So I created this blog, which is called Santa Fe Scenes. It’s that same kind of thing where it’s just talking about having fun in Santa Fe. One of the things was, you know, we’ve got the old Santa Fe trail and we’ve got the old Pincus trail, but did you know that we had a Margarita trail and a Chocolate trail? Stuff like that. Just being whimsical about it and talking about some of the things are unique about the city and sharing my own passion for Santa Fe. I was very fortunate to be able to do a lot of international travel for my job. I was grateful for the opportunity that I was given to see places that I wouldn’t have seen otherwise from Bogota to Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro and Beijing and places like that. So I’ve always been enthusiastic about travel and now living in such a beautiful place like Santa Fe, I want to share that enthusiasm with people.

Bunny: And you’re getting some good feedback on that I bet, right?

Craig: Yes, I am. I’m getting good feedback on it. It’s been a wonderful thing to reconnect with friends who are saying, “Good for you, you old dog! You’re back out there trying something new.” Because whenever someone says, “Oh, you’re a new realtor,” I say, “Well, I’m an old new realtor. I’m 61 and I’m starting this for the first time.” But it’s been great from that perspective and the support that you get from your friends. Then people are saying, “Oh, well, I know somebody who might be interested in sending you that information.” I think that’s one of the positive things that social media has done where we’ve been able to reconnect with so many people that we might have completely lost touch with.

Bunny: Oh yeah. I did a post not very long ago about how grateful I was, and it was in the middle of all the fear over Facebook and Twitter. And I just said that it’s such a great platform for reconnecting with cousins that I haven’t seen since I was six. I mean, I just turned 60. I’m an old dog and this is a new trick for me, but I think that if you use it the right way, it’s a real gift. I also think there are so many realtors, like you said, who just post either pictures of houses that they have listed or their accomplishments. And I think they’re really missing an opportunity.

Craig: Yeah. Because then you’re just talking at someone. You’re not sharing information and excitement about things with them. People don’t want to look at that stuff. They want to look at things like the fact that there are like six great chocolate tiers in Santa Fe. And then the next time I’m in town, I want to go to each one of them. Or discovering an amazing new hiking trail or a beautiful image of a shop window or a piece of art or something like that. 

Bunny: Yeah, it’s so much better than “I just listed this house at 123 main street. Don’t you wish you owned it?” Exactly.

Craig: Exactly. I think more people would react to it. I’d really like to have some of that green chili chocolate over at The Chocolate Smith or whatever. It’s much more interesting than a picture of a kitchen that has granite countertops. Oh my goodness.

Bunny: And, you know, Craig, I found that people will call me and they’ll say, “Well, I’ve been following you on Facebook for two years. And I feel like you’re my best friend. I think you’d be the right person to show me around and help me find a house.” And I bet that’s happening to you too.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s funny, you mentioned that. One of the people I’ve been mentoring told me a story about how she posted a lovely picture of herself and then somebody called her and said, “I feel like I already know you because you just look like a nice person and I feel like I can trust you.” I think also that it’s our eyes and our smile and everything that conveys so much of what you’re talking about. If you have a spirit of gratitude and service and a sense of abundance, not scarcity, it shows in your face, your eyes, your smile, and your whole persona.

Bunny: Well, we’re going to have to wrap up here in a minute, but I would love to hear if you have just three great tips that you would give to somebody who feels kind of stuck in their marketing. It could be what you’ve learned in 30 years or in the last three days, whatever it is.

Craig: I think one is changing your question from “How do I market myself?” to “What can I do for this client?” or “What can I do that’s going to excite the people? How can I make them feel appreciated and valued?” And this can work in cases where you’re actually working one-on-one with a client or cases where you’re trying to figure out how to promote what you’re doing. How do I find ways to surprise and delight people? So I like to do that with social media buys, where you come up with quirky, little things to talk about that are authentically Santa Fe or a funny picture of my dog or something like that. You want to put a smile on people’s faces. And social media gives us so many opportunities to be able to do that in ways that we couldn’t before. So the main thing at the end of it is to put your client first, and then I think everything else will come from there.

Bunny: You’re absolutely right. I think as long as your passion is helping people, then success is just a natural by-product of that.

Craig: Exactly. People feel that energy and then they want to tell their friends about you.

Bunny: What I’ve found is that people want to be able to trust somebody, especially in this business where they’re making possibly the biggest purchase of their life.

Craig: Right? I’m thinking back to these younger clients. We were touring houses, and they were interested in one particular house and I was like, “No, I’m not going to let you buy this. This is not the right move.” And I think all of a sudden they’re like, “Wow, he really cares. He’s not just thinking ‘Tick tock, tick tock. We’ve seen three houses.’” This is not House Hunters International where there are the three properties and you have to buy one. So again, it’s not a transaction. It’s a journey. It’s a relationship.

Bunny: I think that’s the most important tip for somebody to take away. Whether you’re selling widgets or earrings or house cars or houses, this is not a transaction. It’s a relationship. We want people to trust you and come back over and over. I don’t know how you can love your job if you’re not doing it the way we’re doing it.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. And have fun with it. We get to meet interesting people all day long. We get to see things. We get to use our own creativity to express ourselves. I know there are people that are in jobs that don’t have that. But I also read things about  the janitor in an elementary school who takes real pride in what they do, and they are going to do the best job that they possibly can. So I think in almost everything, you can come at it with a mindset of “How can I make this a great experience for me and for others?”

Bunny: That’s great stuff. Tell us where people can find you and where they can find your blog.

Craig: Well, probably the most fun thing I’m doing is the Santa Fe Scenes blog. 

Bunny: Okay. And we’ll share that on the information page for the podcast. And then, of course, if people want to buy a house from you, they can find you through there?

Craig: Yeah. All my information is on there. So one stop shop.

Bunny: Craig, I’m so excited that you were here. This was fun. I think we could do it again.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Bunny: Because I think this is the place where people get stuck. People who are self-employed get stuck in this part. And so I think there’s a lot of stuff that we can talk about.  But I’m of course really grateful that you agreed to talk with us.

Craig: Oh, thanks. It’s been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. 

Bunny: And to everybody else, thanks for being here. This is once again, the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry. You are welcome to go to my website if you’d like to learn more about me and about buying my book, which is all about gratitude and how gratitude helped me kick stage four cancer’s ass. And we’d love to have you follow us and subscribe on spot Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks so much, Craig.

Craig: Thank you. Next time.