59. Defining “Micro-gratitude”: Michael Harris

Bunny: (00:10)
Hi there. Welcome to the life saving gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry, and I’m joined by my co-host and producer Johanna Medina. And our guest today is Michael B. Harris. And he wrote a book that I found really fascinating called falling down, getting up. And, I know that a lot of our listeners like me are avid readers. I would suggest this, but I’d also suggest, just take a listen. Michael is a guy who’s done a lot in his lifetime. He calls himself. He said that he thought he might at some point, um, have a diagnosis of perhaps a, some sort of attention disorder, but he said, I prefer to say that I’m just passionately diverse. He’s interested in everything. He is a lover of many different thoughts and activities. He’s a yoga master, and he’s also really a proponent of what he calls micro gratitude, which was a pretty interesting concept. Wasn’t it?

Johanna: (01:19)
Yes, definitely a perfect fit for this podcast. And, you know, Michael has just great energy, but I really loved hearing his definition and his thoughts around micro gratitude and kind of how he, um, defined that and how he kind of discovered it in his own life. And I just think that’s something we could all do. We talk about gratitude on so many levels on his podcasts in our lives, um, from, you know, gratitude practice to just, uh, like G just gratitude for the big things and little things. So hearing is another way to have gratitude and incorporate it into our lives is, is amazing. And, you know, Michael is a true, uh, what word are I trying to say? I guess like the true definition of life saving gratitude, because he did have a near death experience and a lot of medical kinda issues early in life and, and gratitude helped him through that and he continues to, to have gratitude. And you could just tell talking to him and, and seeing him that he’s a very joyful person and gratitude is a big part of that.

Bunny: (02:35)
He really is joyous. That’s, that’s one of the things I kept thinking while we were talking to him. And I would, I would remind people that, um, if you’re listening to this podcast, you can also find some of the video recordings on YouTube. And so, um, you know, at some point, and I, you know, we’re kind of in the new stages of uploading these onto YouTube, but Michael Harris is a fun guy to watch. I think he’s because he is so joyous. So, um, if it ends up on YouTube, be sure to go and take a look, cuz this guy is having some fun with his life. He’s he is all about success. And he’s about, um, how stories, just like we believe stories save us. And he is all about, um, how gratitude really changed his life. He was a great guest. So thank you for checking in. Thank you for downloading, for subscribing, for doing all the stuff you do with podcasts. Thank you, especially for doing it with us. We just found out today that we’re, you know, because we’re a mother daughter team we’re, we’re, we’re sort of unique in the world of podcasts. So please podcast. Yeah. Let our friends know, let your friends know about us. And we look forward to seeing you again soon. Thank you so much. Our guest today is Michael Harris. And um, when, when we talk, when we get information about guests, we get a lot of just a general bio, but I love this. Michael wrote a book, uh, it’s a number one best selling book called falling down and getting up. And the forward was by somebody that I read all the time. The author and father of gorilla marketing, Jay Conrad Levinson, and, and Jay said that Michael’s ability to survive through thick and thin is a true example of an entrepreneur using gorilla type tactics to overcome virtually anything like, wow, what a great forward written by somebody who’s really amazing in the marketing fit. Well, just, just as a human being. But so, so I’m dying to hear your story, Michael, I wanna, um, you know, I wanna hear what falling down and getting up. It means in your life, you, you we’ve. We had a brief little conversation before we began about gratitude and I just I’d love for my, our listeners to hear your story. And thank you for being here.

Michael: (05:11)
Absolutely Bunny, I really appreciate being on your show and we hooked up through something called pod match, which is like match.com for podcast host and guest. And when I, when I saw your show and, you know, I immediately knew I needed to be on a, you know, lifesaving gratitude. And it’s something that, that means so much to me. And I wanna wanna give a brief shout out to, to Jay Levinson as well. Uh, when I sent him a copy of the manuscript, I did not know him beforehand, but I was able to get it to him. And he told me that he read the book twice in one day that the manuscript that I sent him and he wrote what, what you mentioned about the idea that the book is really about overcoming adversity and really taking that gorilla tactics, which to gorilla tactics in the sense of what Jay talks about are really simple, straightforward ways to do things. And so I learned a lot from him, you know, as, as we connected and, and before he passed. Um, and he, he’s a great man. So I just wanted to shout out, um, you know, Jay’s contribution to the, the book and such the, the book really starts out. It was without getting into every detail and nook and cranny of the book. In 1971, I was junior champion at Portland golf club. You know, I was a hot shot golfer at 12 years old, and I was a hot shot water skier as well. And a couple of weeks after, after winning the club championship, I was water skiing. And I was attempting a beach landing, which I had done many times before and got whipped into the, the beach at it, uh, higher speed than what I would normally hit the beach, cuz by the time you hit the beach, you wanna be slowing down and I was still speeding up.

Michael: (07:13)
So I was going pretty good. And I went head over heels on, on the beach. I didn’t have any, um, apparent injuries. I didn’t like I wasn’t punctured at the time or, or anything like that. But I ended up in, in the hospital the next day and waking up about 10 days later, um, from a coma and they had removed 60% of my liver, my gallbladder cracked ribs collapsed on and a coma. And during that period of time and from the, the best that I could understand it at the time before I came back to my, to awakeness, I had left my body at a near death experience and they were, uh, resuscitating me when, when I came back and I was in the midst of spirits and I didn’t wanna come back. I wanted to stay right where I was, cuz it just was like this over encompassing feeling of love and joy.

Michael: (08:18)
And I reached out and I said, I don’t want to go back. And then the spirit said, it’s time for you to go back. You’re not through yet. Well Bunny, that was 51 years ago. I, I don’t know when I’m through yet. I, I thought maybe they thought you mentioned a couple of years or something. They didn’t save 50 plus years later. You know? So maybe I have 50 more years. I don’t know. As I mentioned to you briefly before, um, I, I got really mad at God for sending me back. I did not want to come back now. Some people with near death experiences, they immediately feel this sense of joy and sensation in life and everything. I didn’t. And I went through a period of drinking too much because the people that I was hanging out with accepted me for who I was, I was not accepting myself very well for who I was. I had really low self-esteem. I didn’t think people would like me. I had scars on my body from the surgeries, all of that stuff. So I really struggled for a long time.

Michael: (09:33)
Then at one point it was 27 years old. I had blocked arteries in both my legs. They were gonna cut off my right leg and my left leg, my right leg was a hundred percent blocked. My left leg was 65% blocked. And I had, what’s called a fem pop, which is bypass surgery on your legs and restored the blood flow. They wanted to do it again a few months later. And I used a few, um, of those words that you normally don’t say in public and told them that they weren’t going to do that. And I left the hospital against medical advice on a K I, I was below rock bottom, right? I, I ended up at a rehabilitation center called pretty and longevity center in 1987 in Santa Monica, California on the boardwalk and where the doctors and I’ll pause here in a moment. The doctors at, in Portland that had worked on me, the professor assistant professor at OHsu said when it starts hurting stop walking. When the doctor down at the pretty center, when I talked to him, he said, when it starts hurting start walking. So he says, you have to walk through the pain. You have to learn to walk through the pain, cuz what it’s doing. It’s giving, giving signals to the brain that you’re not getting enough blood in your legs. And then the brain sends signals back to your legs to start building new blood vessels, collateral blood vessels. And so that process within about two weeks, I went from walking about 10 feet, literally walking 10 feet with a cane to walking two miles without a cane up and down the boardwalk

Johanna: (11:23)
At 27?

Michael: (11:25)
At 27, gratitude really started sinking in .

Johanna: (11:30)
How was that? I mean, did you recognize that it was gratitude or, you know, cuz we talk a lot about, you know, gratitude practice and or was it just kind of like a, you know, second nature, like a natural thing that you just started was okay. I’m grateful for being able to walk or how did that, how did that process work for you? It,

Michael: (11:48)
It was more than the normal sense of what I’ll call the normal level of gratitude. I mean, it was really deep gratitude that, um, I was now stronger again. I was coming back to life, so to speak. I never wanted to die. I always wanted to live through everything and all those struggles that I, I went through, you know, some people don’t wanna live and that they go to a place of suicide. I never felt that, um, although I was angry, I was angry at God for a long time and angry at life. I was able to change that anger, to release that anger, to let it go. And you know, not being able to walk at 27 years old when you think you’re an imortal man and then being able to walk and starting to do the things that you love again is huge.

Bunny: (12:40)
Well, and it seems like I, I, I, what I think what, what I understand Johanna was asking is sometimes we find ourselves in these really dark places and we don’t consciously realize that we’re starting to be not, not just, not starting to be aware of an improvement in our life, but also starting to be aware that something outside of us some, and I think I’m gonna say this badly, but it’s almost like you’re not aware that you’re feeling grateful. I mean, at the time that I had stage four cancer, I didn’t get that. I was being grateful every day, but, but you know, my dad was telling me every day to write something down that that I felt good about and I thought it was only over time. And that’s what it sounds like with you is that you were, you were happy to be walking, but it was over time that, that, that became a continual process that led you to this incredible success you have now, right? Am

Michael: (13:44)
Oh, it’s been decades, long bunny, you know, and it, it continues to evolve today. And my appreciation for life, my gratitude, I’m no longer angry at God. I haven’t been angry for, you know, long time, you know? Um, I’m very happy with, with my relationship with higher power and, and spirit and God and um, um, you know, I’m, I’m tickled, you know, to, to say the least and I’m comforted with the idea that everything’s gonna be okay. And you know, when, when, even when I look at like my, both, my parents passed quite a while ago and my, my mom passed of ovarian cancer, my dad of heart disease. And, um, I don’t feel like when they passed that I lost, I mean, a lot of people consider when somebody’s passed that, oh, I lost this particular person. My feeling is that they passed and they are now where I was when I had my near death experience. And they’re just ahead of me. It’s like they bought the plane ticket to Hawaii before I did. Right. And I feel my parents and other people that have passed my life around me all, all the time, my grandparents and family and friends that, that, that have passed, um, are always here.

Bunny: (15:14)
That’s so cool. I, I, and you’ve, you’ve made a really big deal cuz I looked at your website and what you offer to people. You’ve your story is really important, but you’ve you believe that everybody’s story is important, right? I mean you wanna help people figure out how to tell their story?

Michael: (15:31)
I believe everybody’s story is important. My story, and you know, initially writing this book, falling down, getting up, I mean, it’s been 10 years in July since this book was number one for the first time and that’s a whole nother story. Um, but I realize that my story, some people will pick it up and relate to it. And some people won’t that they won’t like it. Most of the feedback I get is that people like it and you may write, write a book or somebody else might write a book and you’re gonna affect somebody else. But there’s a couple of things that happen. I believe when we write, especially these type of books is that it allows us to get some of the issues out of our tissue. So to speak that get stuck in our bodies, right by, by releasing and writing about it and telling about it and whoever’s reading it or listening to it also has the opportunity to, um, you know, have some experience around it or maybe re relate to what’s happening.

Michael: (16:43)
And I mean, you, you mentioned about having stage four cancer and all of us have stories that can help each other, you know, thousands of years ago, whenever it was when we first started, you know, caveman city around fires telling stories, you know, maybe the story was about the hunt of the dinosaur that day or the saber tooth tiger for dinner or whatever it was, but they were telling stories. So since the beginning of time we have told stories, we still sit around in circles, so to speak and tell stories. We relate to each other. And I believe by doing that, we heal. So I have this passion to help as many people as possible to get their story out, to relate their story, to other, whether I’m, I’m working with, I’m working with several publisher book publishers that are helping other people get their books and, and how to do that.

Michael: (17:39)
I’m working with individuals with, we do a lot of stuff around helping people on podcasts. We have a strong relationship with Alex San Filippo co-founder of pod match and pod match. And we do these podcast mastery challenges. And, you know, it’s just, we, we have this passion myself and the co-founder, we call it endless stages, Sean Tyler Foley. And so we have this real passion in helping get as many stories out as possible. And I’ll add one more thing to that, cuz I, I think it’s important in today’s world. There’s so many people in today’s world that are not given the opportunity to get their stories out because of their government or what, whatever. They’re not even allowed to say certain words or they’ll be thrown in jail for 15 years. And I believe those of us that are in a place that have the ability to tell our story, it’s more important than ever to tell our story and to get as many people out there telling our stories and listening to each other’s stories.

Michael: (18:47)
I love listening to other podcasts and listening to other interviews of other people’s stories. I do it all the time. So, you know, there there’s a lot of levels there, but again, coming back to that original idea, the more people I believe that we can help get stories out the better. And it’s like you bunny in your podcast. I love the theme of the podcast about gratitude and life saving gratitude. And from your experience, perhaps, you know, the podcast spring out of that, you know, so telling that story and it’s just, it’s a blessing to be able to do that.

Bunny: (19:25)
It is. And I, um, I, I think that there are a lot of people who say, um, you know, well you wrote a book it’s really important that you wrote this book. Um, but I don’t, my story is not important and I’m like, you’re you are the only person who has your story. I think it’s, I think it’s hard for people to get that anytime they can share what they’ve learned. Uh, I mean, I think that’s true leadership is when you get to the point where you feel free to share what you’ve learned, not because not because you’ve not because you have these grandiose ideas, but because you know, it’s gonna help somebody else and make a huge difference. And, and, and I agree with you that everybody’s voice is important. Um, I, I, I also saw that you work on helping people overcome resistance to speaking in front of others.

Bunny: (20:21)
And I, and, and I don’t get that because I’ll talk to anybody and I’ll get up on stage and talk to anybody about, you know, give me the microphone. I can’t wait, but, but you know, like Johanna hates that. I I’m curious how do you empower people? Not just to, to know their story and to write their story, but I’m curious if you have any tips. Um, I know a lot of people would get on stage and say, I’m not grateful for the opportunity to stand here. So I’m curious how you help your clients figure out how to get more comfortable with telling their story, especially in a public setting.

Michael: (21:00)
Yeah. Yeah. Johan, I have a question for you. Uh,

Johanna: (21:05)
Oh,

Michael: (21:05)
Okay. were, were you ever in, were you ever in second or third grade? Uh,

Johanna: (21:10)
Yes, I think so. yeah.

Michael: (21:13)
Okay. So when, when, when you were in grade school, did you ever have show and tell time?

Johanna: (21:19)
Uh, no, I did. Yeah. I’m yeah. I’m sure I did. Mm-hmm .

Michael: (21:23)
And so you would get, get up in front of the room and tell a little story about something mm-hmm about what, whatever it might have been, what you did on vacation. Yeah. Or you found a cool little rock by the river. What, whatever it was that that happened back then. Right, right.

Johanna: (21:38)
Yeah.

Michael: (21:41)
At that moment you became a public speaker

Johanna: (21:45)
Yeah.

Michael: (21:48)
So we, we were learning how to do public speaking as little kids and not even realizing it mm-hmm so those skills that we might not think that we have as adults to like get up on stage or that fear of getting up on stage, we started developing as kids. So one of the things, I mean, there, there’s several different things here, bunny that, you know, go along with this and that ability is there already, you already know how to get up in front of a room of people and tell a story. You have those skills it’s tapping back into ’em and recognizing that you already have everything, you need to be an outrageous speaker, just like your mom. Well, it, it’s not unusual for many people to have, you know, that fear of public speaking or that idea of fear, public speaking. And one of the, the things that I recommend, and I’ve gone through this too.

Michael: (22:51)
And like what I heard you say earlier, buddy, about writing the story about not believing that that’s necessarily a valid story, so to speak, you didn’t use the word valid, you use some different words, but, um, we all have that story, right? Mm-hmm , you know, one of the things I recognize and there there’s a storytelling process that, that we use, it’s really based on the, what entertainment industry does to help create some stories. But I went back into my life to identify some stories and I went back and I realized that at six years old, I had my first entrepreneurial journey. And that entrepreneurial,

Bunny: (23:36)
I wanna hear about that.

Michael: (23:38)
Yes. Well that, that was the, the Blackberry being the Blackberry entrepreneur. We had a bunch of blackberries on our property where, where I grew up and I’d go back and I’d pick all the blackberries. And my mom would, would make Blackberry pie for me and all the kids in the neighborhood, they’d all come over. Cuz Mrs. Harris had the best Blackberry pie in the world. Right? And so one day my dad was an entrepreneur. He owned several businesses and he always said, find something. Somebody wants to buy and sell it to him. Everybody wanted the pies. So I made a deal with mom. I said, I’ll pick the, the, the berries. You make the pies, I’ll go around the neighborhood and sell the pies in the neighborhood. You know? And I’m convinced the girl Scouts got this particular idea from me because you know, the girl Scouts suggest when you sell cookies, right?

Michael: (24:31)
You don’t ask whether or not you wanna buy a box of cookie. You ask how many you want to buy. Right. So I, I was doing that back in the sixties, going around the neighborhood, asking how many do you wanna buy? I would get 50 cents. Mom would get 50 cents. Cuz we sold them for a buck for, you know, initially I would take my money. I’d go to the lo local Rexall drug store and buy my, um, comic books and candy. You know, that’s what I wanted to do. You know? So we, we all have stories and it’s identifying some of those stories in our life that we can tell. I can tell the story of falling down, getting up, but I can also tell the, the fun story about being six years old and to have my first entrepreneurial journey.

Bunny: (25:20)
Well, and I think you also, I want, I also want you to tell, talk to folks about, I mean, we always want our listeners to go away with really concrete tips about how to integrate. And we talk about story a lot. We talk about story mm-hmm and we talk about gratitude, but I always want people to go away with great tips on how to integrate both of those things into their life. Mm-hmm and you bring up the, you bring up the idea of micro gratitude mm-hmm and, and how it’s a way to figure out that we’re all really deeply connected. I I’d love for you to share that with our listeners and, and more with me I’m I’m learning every day. That’s one of my hashtags.

Michael: (26:05)
Sure what, what learning more, every day that’s a hashtag

Bunny: (26:10)
Learning, learning every day. I’ve just started using it because it feels like I’m, you know, we’re. So I had this client the other day who said to me funny for most people, life is either drudgery or discovery. And I was like, what? Mm-hmm I have to write that down because we are in, I mean, we’re all in the process of discovering. And so I’m learning every day, but I wanna hear about micro gratitude. I’m really interested in that.

Michael: (26:39)
I don’t know where this first started with me some time ago in decades, I’ll say, you know, maybe 20 years ago, you know, I was taking a look at, I, I was actually sitting there having a bowl of cereal and I was by myself and I’m thinking, I wonder how many people it took to get this bowl of cereal into my hands. And it’s easily a thousand different people, right? Somebody drove the truck from the field where the grain was grown to the silo, to the manufacturer, to the grocery store, somebody, a graphic artist designed the cover.

Michael: (27:33)
Somebody trained that graphic artist to be a graphic artist to do that cover. There was somebody at a bank that financed the whole thing. There was somebody that made the tires. There was somebody that grew the rubber for the tires. There was somebody that did the metal for the bolts. I mean, you can really go down this rabbit hole long way. So to speak this, this, this idea of gratitude. So when I sit there today with the bowl of cereal, I say a thousand, but maybe it took 10,000 people to make that bowl of cereal possible. And I really realized how connected we all are in the world. And that’s just the bowl of cereal, let alone anything else. You know, even just the process of, of putting a book together, the thousands of people that on some level were involved in, in that. And so I realized that, you know, maybe there is somebody in Ohio, in Brazil, in China, I don’t know where wherever in the world that contributed to that bowl of cereal.

Michael: (28:44)
Somebody grew those strawberries that I put on top. Somebody created those little sticky labels, which I don’t particularly like, but those little sticky produce labels on bananas. So I could swipe it at the grocery store to bring it home and eat it. Right. So we are just so connected. And one of the things that I appreciate over the last couple of years of COVID is much as it’s all affected our lives in so many different ways. It’s also brought us together. We never zoomed this much before I can, you know, every day I’m on zoom a couple of times a day with people from all over the world, India, Canada, Europe, all over the United States everywhere. So I feel more connected with people in the world as a result of the COVID epidemic than I, than I did before, or even knew before I know so many more people. So again, I mean this, this idea of micro gratitude, there’s somebody made this microphone right here for me to talk into. So we could talk about gratitude.

Johanna: (29:52)
It takes a lot of mindfulness too, to sit and just recognize, you know, instead of just going throughout your day, like, oh, I’m just gonna get my bowl of cereal and eat it and not really think about it more, but just to actually take that time to think about each step in your day and how, and the people that were involved in those steps. That’s I, I think the more and more we talk to people, we find that a lot of grad gratitude and mindfulness are very connected and it’s, you know, it’s all good for us. All good for our brains.

Michael: (30:27)
Yeah. Yeah. And I’ll, I’ll add one other thing briefly, you know, as a result of the problems that I had with my legs in the eighties, I also started practicing yoga. So I’ve been practicing yoga for 35 years now. I’ve been teaching for almost 30 years. I’ve owned yoga studios. I’ve helped yoga studios all over the world. I’ve trained maybe 7,000 yoga teachers. Um, I’m teaching this afternoon because of our other teacher, which has, uh, came down with COVID today. So I gotta jump in and, and teach the class today at four 30. Um, and the yoga has really brought that additional awareness to my life and the, the gratitude. Um, and it’s a way I don’t really make much money at it, but it doesn’t matter because it’s one of the ways that I can continue to give back. And I’m always talking about gratitude in class. So, so this is like even today, bunny, I cannot tell you that this was such appropriate timing for, to be on a show called lifesaving gratitude. You know, just the, the next couple of days, I gotta jump in today. I gotta help somebody on Sunday. I’m doing a workshop all day, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Uh, just like, I mean, I could go on and on, but it’s just like, oh, and I get to talk about gratitude with buddy and her daughter Johanna .

Bunny: (31:56)
Well, and it sounds, it sounds like, I mean, when you were 27 and you were taking walking two miles instead of 10 steps, that that gratitude was a piece of what saved your life. I mean, certainly when I was sick, I, there were a lot of doctors and, you know, there were lot some chemicals that, well, we’ve talked about a lot of different things, but there were a couple of notes that I, I really wanted to ask you a couple of questions. I wanna know, um, how you ha ha you say every year you do a 10 K that starts at 7,700 feet. That ends at 9,800. I, I can’t leave that question alone. I really don’t. I really know why

Michael: (32:37)
I wanna know what, yeah, yeah. It, it’s a great question. Um, yeah, it’s called the steam’s rim run and it’s in Southeast Oregon in the steam’s mountains, which is fairly remote outside of burns Oregon. And a friend of mine has been doing it for, I don’t know, maybe 15 years, uh, pretty much every single year. And when he mentioned it to me, it was just like, yes, I’ve gotta do that. Yeah. It starts at 7,700 finishes at 9,800. It’s a 10 K. And this comes back to that, that whole idea of, of walking up and down that boardwalk in Santa Monica. So many times is just like, you know, I can now go straight up. There’s a couple of spots for about a hundred feet where it’s down, but it’s pretty much straight up the whole way up. And to be able to be able to do this run, you know, it’s been 30 in 35, 36 years since my surgery and my legs that the doctor said I would be dead within six months if I left the hospital and I’ve still got my legs and I’m extremely, um, grateful, happy, pleased, delighted, excited, ecstatic to still have my legs and to still have my life.

Michael: (34:00)
So it’s really one of the ways that I’m able to celebrate that I’m still here, that I’m still alive, that we can overcome things as well. You know, it’s just like, you know, my gosh, how did I live through these things? You know? And if I’m not through yet, which they told me in 71 that I’m not through yet. Well, they’re right. I’m not through yet. I’m gonna keep going out as much as I can.

Johanna: (34:31)
Yeah. And it sounds like you’ve done a lot with the, with the life that, you know, extra life you were given

Michael: (34:37)
As much as I can.

Bunny: (34:39)
This reminds me, um, Michael, we had a guest on a couple of weeks ago who was in an accident. Um, Sandra Claymore, she had been, um, she had been invited to go to work at the white house as a student, as a graduate student in Berkeley to work on community health systems. And she had gone to celebrate, uh, in the, up at a restaurant up in the redwoods and the guy who was driving the car that took her to dinner. They had a wreck and she ended up in the hospital, went through the windshield. She had a wreck and was told at the rehab center that she would never walk again. And she is, is one of my dearest friends, but she became a healer. She is a part Lakota Sue. And she, she does healing ceremonies and Eagle dances along with, you know, being a mortgage broker.

Bunny: (35:37)
She’s very, she’s like you, she’s a, she’s a Jack of all trades, but she, um, the stories to me really kind of intersected. It’s like I got in this place where people told me I wasn’t gonna survive and I wasn’t gonna thrive. And in fact, you had a near death experience and mm-hmm and instead you came, you both came back to change the lives of thousands of other people. So you talk about micro gratitude. I mean, think about all those people out there, who all those 7,000 people that you trained to be yoga, masters mm-hmm or, I mean, I’m, it gives me goosebumps to think of the ways that the two of you have helped to heal and save and tell the stories of so many other people. I I’m so excited. This is such a great conversation to have with you today.

Michael: (36:30)
Well, I would add in bunny that you’re right there. You’re doing it too with your story. And by bringing other people’s stories to the world, you are doing the same thing. You’re helping to heal other people too, both you and your, your daughter. I mean, that, that’s huge. I’ve never been on a mother daughter show, you know,

Bunny: (36:54)
We didn’t know we were an anomaly, but we keep hearing that. So yeah,

Michael: (36:59)
It’s a wonderful one. It’s a good one. Yeah.

Bunny: (37:01)
Thanks. Yeah. Thanks. It was a natural progression because Johanna was my caregiver when I was six. So mm-hmm, , I really, Michael, this has been so much fun and I’d really like to have you come back and I’d really like to do the business side of it. You know, we’ve talked about stories and about surviving, overcoming things and, and speaking. But I think, you know, there are the things where we could, you know, we can talk about, um, success and business and you know, like I’m dying to know like, what is practicing and teaching yoga taught you about business, but we don’t have time to talk about that. So if you could come back and in a month or so, it’d be so much fun to talk about that piece of it, because it sounds like you’ve really got expertise.

Michael: (37:50)
I would love to do that and I haven’t done this yet, but when Jay was alive, he really encouraged me to write a book. And we were talking actually about doing a gorilla marketing book together about how yoga can teach us all the principles we need to know about life and about business. I just haven’t done it yet. It’s a book still inside of me. Yeah.

Bunny: (38:13)
Well, I wanna talk about that. And I also wanna talk about quantum leaps because I’m a big believer in quantum leaps. So yeah, let’s get back together. But I just wanna say for today, I am not micro grateful. I am micro, macro, huge, grateful that you came to us as a guest.

Michael: (38:30)
Well this is wonderful. And I, again, I too appreciate being on your show and in any time that I can be on, on any podcast and being able to talk about life and gratitude and the blessings that we have, especially in today’s world, where so much is happening, it’s easy to forget about how much we do have, and that no matter what happens, everything’s gonna be okay. No matter what. So thank you bunny. And thank you Johanna, for having me here on, on your show.

Bunny: (39:03)
That’s all we’ve got today. Friends. I wanna thank you for joining the life saving gratitude podcast with your host Bunny, Terry, that’s me and my producer and assistant Johanna Medina. We feel like we’re in the business of sharing the stories that save us, and we hope you’ll share as well by letting your friends and family know about the podcast follow and like us wherever you listed. And please take the time to leave a review, whether it’s a stellar comment or a suggestion, we are open to suggestions all the time. Also follow us on Instagram at life saving gratitude pod. You can also follow me personally at Bunny Terry, Santa Fe. You can sign up my website at bunnyterry.com to receive weekly emails about how to become the ultimate gratitude nerd. Thanks so much for checking in.

Bunny: Hi everyone. This is Bunny with the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. Just in case you don’t know me, I am a stage four colon cancer survivor and the author of Lifesaving Gratitude, which is a book about how gratitude helped me kick cancer’s ass. 

Today we’re going to talk to a special guest about how marketing and marketers can use gratitude to create business and connections with clients and also for themselves to create a really positive way to do their job. But first, I just want to thank you for being here and ask that you download the podcast if you’d like. And certainly subscribe wherever you listen to other podcasts. But enough about me and enough about the podcast. 

I want to introduce you to my special guest, who’s also a friend. Craig Cunningham is currently a realtor with Keller Williams, Santa Fe. And that’s how I met him. However, this is a recent career for him and he was, and correct me if I mispronounce the word, but you were a hotelier. Is that the way to say that?

Craig: Yes. 

Bunny: Yes. He’s spent 30 years in corporate sales and marketing. He’s traveled extensively. I’m going to let him tell you all the places that he’s been to, but he is the founder and principal of Cunningham + Colleagues marketing consultants. He was in the past the VP of marketing and quality for Seaport Hotels and World Centers and the VP of marketing for Core North America. So welcome Craig Cunningham.

Craig: Thanks so much for having me on your podcast.

Bunny: I’m excited. I know you have some great tips for all of our listeners. When I think about these podcasts, I always think about the people that are going to want the information we’re offering. I mean, we’re here to help people and we’re here to figure out how gratitude can make everyone’s life not just easier and simpler, but also fuller. So why don’t you start, Greg? Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us how in the world you ended up in this completely different career? And yet the truth is we’re still just marketers first and realtors, second. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell our listeners.

Craig: Yeah. So, as you said, I’ve been in marketing and sales for more than 30 years. I actually started off with an advertising and PR agency and then had the good fortune to be hired by my hotel client at the time, Wyndham hotels. At that time it was a North American chain and it’s now international. 

But from then on, I was in the hotel business. It’s definitely a career where if you are not focused on client service and the whole concept of gratitude, you’re not going to be successful. I always thought of our job as just surprising and delighting our guests and making them feel like they chose the right hotel to be with. And so it was always about waking up every day and saying, “What can I do to make somebody’s day and to give them a great experience?” And, of course, to do this you have to be grateful because they opted to choose your hotel over the million other choices that they had. 

So when I retired from the hotel business two years ago, I was trying to figure out what else I wanted to do with my life. I started doing more volunteering. I volunteer with Kitchen Angels here in Santa Fe to deliver meals to people who are not able to leave their homes. But I also started thinking of whether I wanted to do something else from a professional standpoint and the real estate business seemed like a natural extension, because it’s all about client service. You have to figure out ways to make people feel like they’ve made the right choice in working with you. So it’s all about being grateful every day and figuring out what can I do to help them today. How else can I extend what I’m doing for them in a way that they will appreciate and know that I appreciate them. So that’s what it’s really all about, because of course they could work with a million other other people

Bunny: Right. And let’s talk for just a second. Don’t you think that marketing has changed over the 30 years that you’ve been doing this? I mean, it seems to me that when we were kids, which was back before the crust cooled, we were sort of marketed at. Just talk for a minute about how marketing is different now than it was 10 years ago or 30 years ago.

Craig: It’s funny, because I was going to say the exact same thing. Back in the day, you were running a TV ad or a radio spot or a print ad and it was passive in that you just presented the information, unless you were direct sales. But really with the advent of so much digital media, you are instantly able to forge a relationship with customers through social media, through Facebook, Instagram, where you’re having a dialogue with them from the very beginning. This allows you to work in a much more personal way and to be able to find out much more quickly how you can serve those people. 

So I think it’s changed completely. Before you just sort of put it out there into the ether and hope that something worked, and now you’re able to engage. And I’ve found that so much in real estate where I’m getting emails from folks and then it evolves from the email into a phone call or a zoom call or something like that instantly. I think that’s so much better for both people. Especially for somebody like me who wants to find ways to engage with people and to be of service to them, it makes it a lot easier and more rewarding.

Bunny: I just think about the ways that I connect with my clients. It’s as if you’re somehow conveying to those people that you’re grateful that they showed up.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, my whole thought is that it’s not a transaction, it’s a relationship. And that relationship can be multifaceted. Once you’ve sold them a house or sold their house, I like to think that we’ve formed a friendship and a bond and that relationship is going to continue. And honestly, I don’t even care if I ever get another piece of business for them. Now think of them as friends. I want to have them to my house for dinner or go have coffee or something like that. 

I think that kind of thing that makes a difference for people in wanting to work with me.  It’s coming from a position of wanting to be of service to them and wanting to make them happy and finding the right solution for them. I’m working with some first-time-buyers right now and I kind of feel like they’re my kids. It’s about, okay, how can I really help them with this? And they’re grateful for the counsel I’m able to give to them, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to work with them. So it’s very rewarding. I think if you approach business relationships in the same way as you would with your friends, it’s a win-win situation for everybody.

Bunny: Well, talking about those first-time home buyers, I mean, that’s one of my favorite deals. You never make the most money from those transactions, but I’m so grateful to be reminded that we are providing the American dream when we’re selling real estate. Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s my favorite experience.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, for somebody to have their first home and to be excited about how they’re going to decorate it and what they’re going to do. And with this young couple, seeing them excited when they see a house brings out all my empathy and makes me want to really go the extra mile for them to make sure they find the right house at the right price for them. And then I just never want to stop. So then it’s like, “Okay, now I’m going to find this person for you to do the plumbing, and I’m going to find this person, etc, and I’ll be with you with you  to help explain things.” I just want to really continue to be of service.

Bunny: I talk a lot, especially on my blog, about Judy Camp, who was one of my first real estate mentors. She was a great friend and Linda Gammons partner for a long time before she passed away. But Judy Camp always says, “If you come from contribution, you can’t help but be successful.”

Craig: Yeah. I mean, just as I was saying, you can’t think of it as a transaction. I think, coming from contribution, how can I help you? How can I make this a better experience? How can I make this work? Because, especially in a real estate transaction, it can be stressful. It’s the biggest financial transaction for the majority of us. So how do you take the burden and the pressure away from them and sort of guide them through the process? I just think the main thing is that it’s much more fun, whether you’re doing volunteer work or in business, to wake up every day and figure out how I could make it fun for somebody else. Because then it’s fun for you and it gets you excited and passionate about what you’re doing.

Bunny: Well, it sounds like our big “why’s” are really similar. I certainly don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but it sounds like your big “why” is just to make the life of the people you come in contact with better.

Craig: Yeah. Of course making money is nice, but there are lots of ways to make money. It’s more about whether you are getting energy from it. And I think you really get energy when you’re working with someone and trying to figure out how you can help them, how you can make their day better, how you can make the service that you’re providing better. And also just doing things that saying, “What about if I do X, Y, Z?” and they’re  like, “Oh, you’ll do that for me?” And I’m like, “Of course.”

I have another set of clients where the transaction was fairly complicated and we were looking at lots of properties. Coming from a corporate background, I love to do spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations—things like that. And so after about the third thing we had to do, they’re like, “Oh, how are we going to organize all these bids?”  And then one of the guys said to the other guy, “Well, Craig’s going to do a spreadsheet for us. He’s probably already got it done.” So it’s that kind of thing where you’re looking for ways to make their experience better.

Bunny: So this is always a funny question for me to ask, because I have such a loose gratitude practice other than just waking up in the morning and saying, “thank you, thank you, thank you,” and then writing things down, but do you have a practice that you follow that helps you both in your business and your personal life?

Craig: Well, since I came into real estate with Keller Williams, which focuses a lot on being servant leaders and helping people, I’ve gotten into the habit of writing three things I’m grateful for that day. It could be that it’s a beautiful day or a dog or my partner or the opportunity to help somebody or the coffee’s really good that day, but waking up and appreciating what you have in your life is a good way to get in a good mindset for the rest of it.

Bunny: Oh, absolutely. Something I always say is that we kind of rewire our brains. We do. We create new neural pathways every time we say that we’re grateful. So in terms of nuts and bolts, is there a way that you let your clients know? I mean, I find that there are a lot of young people, young entrepreneurs or people who are new to business, who forget how to tell their clients how they’re grateful for them, even if it’s a line in an email. Do you have something that you do specifically over and over?

Craig: I think for me, it’s maybe more in the actions. I think of “This is really going to be helpful if I do this or if I provide this information.” I think it’s always in my voice and the way that I write. I try to always communicate openly and in a friendly and conversational manner. But then I also think “It would be really cool and really helpful if I did X , Y , Z.” I created a whole PowerPoint just on the neighborhoods in Santa Fe, because if you’re out of town it gets confusing. And that came out of a client saying, “Well, I don’t really know the neighborhoods.” And I thought that this would be a great tool for them. So I created it and then I was able to use it with others. 

So I think for me, maybe it’s sort of on the fly. I used to say in the hotel hotel business, “How can I make this a wow experience?” Because the other way to think about it is that every relationship is with people. When you’re in a service business you’re really in the business of creating memories. You can create good memories or you can create bad memory and it’s much more fun to create good memories.

Bunny: And that just comes from a spirit of generosity. I mean, you obviously want this to be the best real estate experience they’ve ever had.

Craig: Right. Right. I’m very grateful for the people that have helped me along the way. I’ve been very fortunate in my career to always work for people who were concerned about my career development and my personal development and became dear friends. And I’ve had a couple of bosses that have hired me twice in two different jobs. So I’m always grateful for the things that other people have done for me. 

So then I want to pay it forward. When I came to Keller Williams and I was introduced to the team here, there was so much openness and willingness to share and help and support. It has been fantastic. What strikes me the most is how grateful I am for what other people have done for me. And how do I pay that back?

Bunny: I mean, this is not a podcast to plug Keller Williams. It’s really more to talk about mindset, but the place where I learned it was sitting in that training room and learning that my mindset was the secret sauce. I mean, that’s the success piece, right?

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s not just about production and everything. It’s about weight and having a sense of gratitude and contribution and a sense of abundance. And I don’t mean that in a monetary way. It could be abundance in your health or your friends or all of that kind of stuff. And I think back to you. Your experience with cancer was far worse than mine, but I did have prostate cancer about nine years ago. Everyone I worked with during that entire time when I was going for radiation every day for 10 weeks was so supportive. And then on the last day of radiation, there was this very important meeting, and everyone knew it was my last day.My whole team had a celebration for me on my last day. That was turning something that was obviously a challenging situation into something where I knew they really cared about me and supported me.

Bunny: Wow. I’m interested to hear how your mindset was in the middle of that? 

Craig: I’m just by nature, an optimistic person. So even though it was scary, I felt like I was in good hands from a medical standpoint and I just felt like I was gonna beat it. I had done the education that I needed to and then it was really about having a positive mindset. 

This is probably too much information, but I’ll say it anyway. You’re doing the radiation stripped down to your boxer shorts. And so I jokingly put this Facebook thing about the fact that I needed a new pair of boxer shorts for every day. And people started sending me underwear—different pairs of boxer shorts for every day. So while I was sitting there in the big machine, where you’re sort of in there and it’s buzzing and scanning and all that kind of stuff, it got to be kind of a joke with the techs:  “Oh , what’s he going to be wearing today?”

Bunny: I love that.

Craig: That was a way to keep my spirits up. And also during that process, I really learned how to be very focused. I was in a waiting room with people that were going through, frankly, worse things than prostate cancer. Don’t get me wrong, prostate cancer is pretty serious. It is. People die from it. But I was seeing so many other people that were having a much more challenging time than I was. And we became a family. We all bonded together during that process, because we were all waiting, sometimes for an hour. So it’s things like that. And also things like the kitchen angels service, where it helps reboot you every day for how grateful you should be in your own life and grateful for the opportunity to help other people.

Bunny: Right. There are tons of people who do get what a gift it is. People who don’t even have a specific gratitude practice, but at least an attitude every day that you’re going to figure out something. I just wrote a blog post on limiting beliefs and one of the things that I wanted to convey is that we get to choose every single moment how we view the world. And maybe for somebody out there who’s brand new in business or who’s starting a new business. I just read a statistic that said that the entrepreneur demographics are changing. And now like 48% of new entrepreneurs are over 50. So hooray for the old people! 

But I know that there are people out there right now who are thinking, “Well, I’m not any good at marketing. I’m not any good at that piece of it. I can sell stuff, but I’m not good at the marketing stuff.” I’ve got to tell you, I’m married to a guy who doesn’t believe in self promotion because he came from a generation when you played down your assets, instead of being grateful for them and talking about them. So I’d love to hear what you have to say to somebody who has that limiting belief that they can’t market. And they can’t promote themselves.

Craig: You know, we could all market ourselves, and we do it every day in our interactions.  Whether we think of it as marketing or not, we’re marketing ourselves all day long in how we react and treat other people. The thought I had as you were talking about your husband thinking self-promotion sounds like a dirty word is that it doesn’t have to be you talking  about “me, me, me” and “I did this million dollars in revenue.” This is kind of a turnoff in some ways, because you’re talking about yourself. But if you’re talking about how you can help somebody else and how you can provide a good experience for them with your information and knowledge, you’re not talking about yourself in that context. You’re talking about how you can be of service. I think that’s a much easier way for a lot of people from a generation where we weren’t really supposed to be talking about ourselves.

Bunny: Well, it was pre-social media. Our face wasn’t out there. We just weren’t trained to tell people, “Here’s the reason you should hire me instead of the other person.”

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, now we’re all our own brands on social media. But I think that rather than saying to somebody, “Here’s why you should hire me versus somebody else,” you should just talk about how you can be of service in what you do in an authentic way. Then people are more likely to want to work with you, because you’re radiating a sense of positivity and an interest in them. And they’re not thinking that you just look at them as a transaction and then you’re onto the next person.

Bunny: I frequently use with my marketing coaching clients the example of a dinner party. If you went into a dinner party (and this is for people who are just beginning in whatever business they’re in, especially if they’re self-employed), you wouldn’t simply walk in, take your coat off and say, “Hey, I’m selling something, come and talk to me.” Right? I mean, that’s what you don’t want to do with marketing. You want to start by building a relationship. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Craig: I think it goes all the way back to Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. People do like to talk about themselves. And so the first thing is you should be listening. That was one of the first things I learned in marketing client service. You need to ask questions and learn from your clients. Focus on what they need, as opposed to talking about yourself. You really want to establish a dialogue with them about their wants and needs and hopes and fears and everything else. Then you can talk about how you can address them. But nobody wants to go in and all of a sudden have you sit down and say, “Here’s my PowerPoint about me and what I’ve done.” It should be more of establishing, from the very beginning, a relationship of openness with folks. Then, after hearing from them, you can say “Well, here’s how I think I can you and here are some ideas that I have that I could share with you.” So I think a key thing is really listening from the very beginning.

Bunny: I even found that to be helpful when I used to first go on listing appointments. I was so nervous that I would sit down and I would immediately try to book an appointment. You know, if you’re not in real estate, a listing appointment is just like sitting down with a prospective customer. I would be so nervous in the beginning and really coming from a place of scarcity where I thought, “If I don’t get this listing, I’m not sure I can pay the rent next month.” And if you’re coming from a place of scarcity, you’re likely to self-sabotage. But that’s such good advice because things changed when I finally learned how to sit back and listen: “I’m here to help you. Tell me what it is that you need. Talk to me.” It’s so powerful to give a client time to talk to you. And I think people forget to do that, right?

Craig: Yeah. And I think sometimes we do it because we’re afraid. What I’ve learned so much over the years in business working with people is that people are terrified of silence, so they will immediately start talking. If there’s a second of silence, you jump in and start babbling. Lord knows I do it. But if you just let somebody talk and let it sort of sit there for a second and not just try to be filling in all the time. It drives me crazy when people are doing that. It’s much better if you can have the client talk and then ask some more questions and then be warm and reflective about it. Back to the Dale Carnegie thing, I think one of his first points was if you’re at the dinner party, ask people about themselves. Most people do like to talk about themselves. So ask them and don’t just start talking about yourself. 

Bunny: I think that even people who would say, “I don’t like to talk about myself,” really do want somebody to ask them and listen to them.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s not just asking them to go on and on. It’s more meaningful questions about, for example, why they decided to move here. Just those kinds of questions that get them thinking. Growing up in materialistic Dallas, the joke was that the questions at a party were like, “Where do you live? What do you do? What do you drive?” And so it’s not questions like that. It’s asking them more about their life experience,

Bunny: You just brought me to another completely different point, which is for any realtors out there listening: I think it’s really important to convey to your clients how grateful you are for where you live. I mean, if our lifestyle is such a selling point, don’t you think you should share that?

Craig: Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, living in Santa Fe there’s so much beauty. I’m looking out my window right now at the beautiful blue sky. When I leave my house in the morning and I see the mountains, and then when I’m coming home at night and the sun is setting over the mountains and I see all the different colors and everything, it’s just breathtaking. It’s great to live in such a great and wonderful environment and in a place that is very spiritual, going back with the native Americans—respect for the earth and nature and all of those things—I think it does help center us more than a lot of other places.

Bunny: How do you convey that to your clients? I know you’re doing something really cool online that’s different from some other realtors.

Craig: Well, I’m not just posting on my Facebook page,” Hey, I just sold this house or just sold that house.” Well, that’s great. But I’m more talking about new experiences in Santa Fe: new restaurants, or a new place to go hiking, or something exciting that’s happening at one of the museums or things like that—enthusiastically talking about the experience of living in Santa Fe. And if down the road, by the way, you’re looking at this stuff and you decide you want to buy a house here, I would love to help you. But it’s more about conveying the reason why we all want to live here

Bunny: And tell us about your blog, because I think it’s amazing.

Craig: So I created this blog, which is called Santa Fe Scenes. It’s that same kind of thing where it’s just talking about having fun in Santa Fe. One of the things was, you know, we’ve got the old Santa Fe trail and we’ve got the old Pincus trail, but did you know that we had a Margarita trail and a Chocolate trail? Stuff like that. Just being whimsical about it and talking about some of the things are unique about the city and sharing my own passion for Santa Fe. I was very fortunate to be able to do a lot of international travel for my job. I was grateful for the opportunity that I was given to see places that I wouldn’t have seen otherwise from Bogota to Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro and Beijing and places like that. So I’ve always been enthusiastic about travel and now living in such a beautiful place like Santa Fe, I want to share that enthusiasm with people.

Bunny: And you’re getting some good feedback on that I bet, right?

Craig: Yes, I am. I’m getting good feedback on it. It’s been a wonderful thing to reconnect with friends who are saying, “Good for you, you old dog! You’re back out there trying something new.” Because whenever someone says, “Oh, you’re a new realtor,” I say, “Well, I’m an old new realtor. I’m 61 and I’m starting this for the first time.” But it’s been great from that perspective and the support that you get from your friends. Then people are saying, “Oh, well, I know somebody who might be interested in sending you that information.” I think that’s one of the positive things that social media has done where we’ve been able to reconnect with so many people that we might have completely lost touch with.

Bunny: Oh yeah. I did a post not very long ago about how grateful I was, and it was in the middle of all the fear over Facebook and Twitter. And I just said that it’s such a great platform for reconnecting with cousins that I haven’t seen since I was six. I mean, I just turned 60. I’m an old dog and this is a new trick for me, but I think that if you use it the right way, it’s a real gift. I also think there are so many realtors, like you said, who just post either pictures of houses that they have listed or their accomplishments. And I think they’re really missing an opportunity.

Craig: Yeah. Because then you’re just talking at someone. You’re not sharing information and excitement about things with them. People don’t want to look at that stuff. They want to look at things like the fact that there are like six great chocolate tiers in Santa Fe. And then the next time I’m in town, I want to go to each one of them. Or discovering an amazing new hiking trail or a beautiful image of a shop window or a piece of art or something like that. 

Bunny: Yeah, it’s so much better than “I just listed this house at 123 main street. Don’t you wish you owned it?” Exactly.

Craig: Exactly. I think more people would react to it. I’d really like to have some of that green chili chocolate over at The Chocolate Smith or whatever. It’s much more interesting than a picture of a kitchen that has granite countertops. Oh my goodness.

Bunny: And, you know, Craig, I found that people will call me and they’ll say, “Well, I’ve been following you on Facebook for two years. And I feel like you’re my best friend. I think you’d be the right person to show me around and help me find a house.” And I bet that’s happening to you too.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s funny, you mentioned that. One of the people I’ve been mentoring told me a story about how she posted a lovely picture of herself and then somebody called her and said, “I feel like I already know you because you just look like a nice person and I feel like I can trust you.” I think also that it’s our eyes and our smile and everything that conveys so much of what you’re talking about. If you have a spirit of gratitude and service and a sense of abundance, not scarcity, it shows in your face, your eyes, your smile, and your whole persona.

Bunny: Well, we’re going to have to wrap up here in a minute, but I would love to hear if you have just three great tips that you would give to somebody who feels kind of stuck in their marketing. It could be what you’ve learned in 30 years or in the last three days, whatever it is.

Craig: I think one is changing your question from “How do I market myself?” to “What can I do for this client?” or “What can I do that’s going to excite the people? How can I make them feel appreciated and valued?” And this can work in cases where you’re actually working one-on-one with a client or cases where you’re trying to figure out how to promote what you’re doing. How do I find ways to surprise and delight people? So I like to do that with social media buys, where you come up with quirky, little things to talk about that are authentically Santa Fe or a funny picture of my dog or something like that. You want to put a smile on people’s faces. And social media gives us so many opportunities to be able to do that in ways that we couldn’t before. So the main thing at the end of it is to put your client first, and then I think everything else will come from there.

Bunny: You’re absolutely right. I think as long as your passion is helping people, then success is just a natural by-product of that.

Craig: Exactly. People feel that energy and then they want to tell their friends about you.

Bunny: What I’ve found is that people want to be able to trust somebody, especially in this business where they’re making possibly the biggest purchase of their life.

Craig: Right? I’m thinking back to these younger clients. We were touring houses, and they were interested in one particular house and I was like, “No, I’m not going to let you buy this. This is not the right move.” And I think all of a sudden they’re like, “Wow, he really cares. He’s not just thinking ‘Tick tock, tick tock. We’ve seen three houses.’” This is not House Hunters International where there are the three properties and you have to buy one. So again, it’s not a transaction. It’s a journey. It’s a relationship.

Bunny: I think that’s the most important tip for somebody to take away. Whether you’re selling widgets or earrings or house cars or houses, this is not a transaction. It’s a relationship. We want people to trust you and come back over and over. I don’t know how you can love your job if you’re not doing it the way we’re doing it.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. And have fun with it. We get to meet interesting people all day long. We get to see things. We get to use our own creativity to express ourselves. I know there are people that are in jobs that don’t have that. But I also read things about  the janitor in an elementary school who takes real pride in what they do, and they are going to do the best job that they possibly can. So I think in almost everything, you can come at it with a mindset of “How can I make this a great experience for me and for others?”

Bunny: That’s great stuff. Tell us where people can find you and where they can find your blog.

Craig: Well, probably the most fun thing I’m doing is the Santa Fe Scenes blog. 

Bunny: Okay. And we’ll share that on the information page for the podcast. And then, of course, if people want to buy a house from you, they can find you through there?

Craig: Yeah. All my information is on there. So one stop shop.

Bunny: Craig, I’m so excited that you were here. This was fun. I think we could do it again.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Bunny: Because I think this is the place where people get stuck. People who are self-employed get stuck in this part. And so I think there’s a lot of stuff that we can talk about.  But I’m of course really grateful that you agreed to talk with us.

Craig: Oh, thanks. It’s been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. 

Bunny: And to everybody else, thanks for being here. This is once again, the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry. You are welcome to go to my website if you’d like to learn more about me and about buying my book, which is all about gratitude and how gratitude helped me kick stage four cancer’s ass. And we’d love to have you follow us and subscribe on spot Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks so much, Craig.

Craig: Thank you. Next time.