Episode Transcript

Bunny : (00:00)
Hi there. I’m Bunny Terry, and you’re listening to the I Love New Mexico podcast. Whether you’re a native new Mexican, who’s lived here for your entire life, or you’re just considering a visit, this episode is for you. Join us as we share a lot of New Mexico stories, talk about all things New Mexico, and include topics like what’s magical here, where you ought to visit, what’s happening, and the things you absolutely cannot miss in the land of Enchantment. We’re excited that you’re here and we can’t wait to show you what an amazing place New Mexico is, because let’s face it, I love New Mexico. Happy October, everybody from the I Love New Mexico podcast. We are so excited because today begins a series that we’re gonna do the entire month about haunted New Mexico. And if you are a new Mexican, you know that, um, this is a place with a lot of spirits and mysticism. And I have with me a crew from, um, one of my favorite places. It’s near my hometown, um, tuum Care, New Mexico. And rather than me going on and trying to figure out what everybody’s role is, I’m going to hand the mic over to Connie Loveland, who’s gonna tell me why you guys are here and, and what this has to do with our haunted New Mexico October.

Connie : (01:37)
Well, good morning, Bunny. Thank you so much for having us, um, this morning. My name is Connie Loveland. I’m the director for Tuum Care Main Street, Tucumcari Main Street is a preservation based economic development and community revitalization nonprofit. Our mission is to preserve and revitalize the downtown corridor in Tuum Carey. Uh, so we are here to talk about our haunted walking tours, um, that we also call our History Alive Walking Tours. Uh, this was an idea of one of my counterparts that’s with us this morning, and, um, it has just taken off. We have so much fun telling stories about, uh, the history of Tuum Carey. So I’m gonna turn it over to Annie because this was her brilliant idea and let her introduce and talk about, uh, her part in this.

Annie : (02:32)
Hi, my name is Annie McCauley and I’m a local business owner. Um, and I am the tour guide story retailer. I did a history tour when I was back east one day and came home and told Connie, I think this is something that we really need to do in our community. And she was kind enough to go along with me on it and, and include Laura on it. And so now I’ll pass it off to Laura ’cause she’s like our little, uh, story.

Laura : (03:00)
Hi, my name is Laura Love and, uh, um, I’m from Tucumcarie too and live in Albuquerque, but I’m, I’m a history nerd . So I guess, um, I had started a blog a while ago doing family history and kind of finding these bizarre stories that I had no idea. And, and so when I talked to Connie and Annie, I was like, oh my gosh. You know, Tuku Care has some amazing stories that nobody really knows about. I grew up there, we grew up there. We didn’t know all of this amazing stuff. So that’s, that’s really how it, it got started.

Bunny : (03:38)
Well, so first of all, for the guests who don’t know this, and if you don’t know it, I don’t know where you’ve been, but I grew, Tucumcari is in Quake County on the east side of the state. We are, uh, Quay County is, um, where my parents grew up, where my family homesteaded in the teens, both, both sides, my mom’s and my dad’s family. In fact, my parents, I’m sorry, I started to say my parents both live in Quay County, but my dad just passed away a month ago, so he lived 91 years in Quake County, and my mom, who’s gonna be 90 in May, is still alive and living in Logan. So, tuum Carey is really dear to my heart. I’m so excited that you’re doing this because, um, I know that from I, and I’m gonna tell you, I remember when this happened, when, um, route 66 became I 40, um, which was in the, in the seventies when I was in junior high and high school. Things really started to, um, as you might expect change in Tuum Careri. So I love that you’re doing things that involve storytelling, but also sort of a Revit, well, it’s not sort of, it is a revitalization of the, the part of Tucumcari that I really love. I, you know, I bought every prom dress I ever bought at Moto Day on Main Street. So this is so cool. I love that you’re doing this, and I really like Annie that you went somewhere else and, and borrowed an idea from somebody else, because that’s, I mean, why reinvent the wheel? So I wanna know the reason, I mean, why would this be part of our haunted New Mexico tour?

Annie : (05:28)
So like, why, like, why I decided to bring this back was just, I went on a tour in Nashville, and Nashville has such a rich history, um, and they have so many cool stories to tell, um, about their community and about the history of the town and everything. And I just thought, you know, Toku Kerry is such an old town as well for New Mexico, um, and it for the East side anyway. And so I just thought like it would be really neat, something that locals would have to do. There’s not a lot for locals to do in our community, and I felt that bringing that, um, really helped to provide that for people.

Connie : (06:11)
So, our first tour that Laura put together for us was called Mayhem Mystery and Murder. And so it, it focused on some of the really wild West stories that we had downtown. And it was kind of like a snowball. Once we found one, things just kept unrolling and unrolling. And we’ve, it seems like every day we find new stories about, you know, shootouts that happened right in the middle of Main Street. Um, there was a gentleman who hit his wife in the head with an ax on Main Street. Wow.

Bunny : (06:50)
.

Connie : (06:50)
Yeah, there, there’s some wild stories. So, um, you know, we decided October is a really good time to, to bring these crazy stories, um, into, into the present day. And so we, we started these tours and it was funny, the first year that we did it, we actually had some people tell us, oh, people aren’t gonna pay to go do this. They’re not gonna pay to walk around downtown Tucumcari at night. And I think we sold out of all but one tour that first year, and it was, I don’t know, girls, what do you think? 90% local people who it was so fun walking around with them and they would say things like, oh, I didn’t know that’s what that building was, or, I didn’t know that person owned that building, or that happened. Um, so it’s been a really fun way to connect our community with our past.

Bunny : (07:47)
That is so cool. I in fact, showed a house the other day with Alan Vorenberg and he showed me a picture and he said, you know, the Vorenberg Hotel in Tucumcari was owned by my uncle. And I was like, what in the wor, I mean, I wanna, I, if you don’t live in New Mexico, you have no idea how small this is. But Laura, what’s the story you’re telling this time

Laura : (08:12)
This time we’re, we are focusing on one person, one, uh, very unique, um, and amazing founding, one of the founding fathers of Tucumcari and that is Alex Street. And we discovered, so we’ve done a few little snippets on some of his, uh, hints of what he did. And, and he founded Tucumcari it was early on. He was one of the ones that, you know, plotted the land, with the Goldberg.

Bunny : (08:39)
And when was that? Laura?

Laura : (08:40)
1901. So he actually worked at the Bell Ranch before Tuku Carry, um, ever existed. So, so he has a long history of in the area. And so that was just pretty exciting. And so Alex Street has not only, you know, was in Tuku Care, was sheriff for years and years through the 1920s, and then became, you know, what brings us up to a federal agent as well. So, but he was an undercover, um, cop at from almost day one because he actually worked in, um, Oklahoma as well before he came to New Mexico

Bunny : (09:23)
. Wow. . And, and, and he’s, uh, his character is sort of a, is a recent celebrity, right? Right.

Laura : (09:31)
He, he is. So, he, he is a celebrity, um, that nobody knows about. So he’s kind of this, this, um, amazing secret that we have here in Tucumcari of, of coming, you know, out from Mississippi living in Oklahoma was, it seems a US marshal in Oklahoma early on. And then before Tucumcari existed, he was a saloon operator in Liberty, New Mexico with his buddy Lee Smith. And so he and his buddy partnered, he also, of course, bell Ranch, he went to the Bell Ranch, then he decided, Hey, let’s open a saloon in Liberty, which is right near Fort Bascom. Right. And which isn’t in existence anymore, but there might be some tiny remains around on a private property. But, um, but they owned a saloon for a while before Tuku Carry was just a gleam in, in a few people’s eyes, including Smith was also one of the founders. But he got shot in a saloon, brawl , tecu Carey, when it wasn’t even, when it just barely started, it was basically a 10 city. So, so So there

Bunny : (10:48)
I’m sorry, go ahead.

Laura : (10:50)
No, no, that’s fine. Go ahead.

Bunny : (10:53)
So, so there is a connection, um, I mean there, I’m sorry, I just lost the name of the recent movie that Martin Scorsese did.

Laura : (11:04)
Killers of the Flower Moon

Bunny : (11:06)
, what is his connection to that?

Laura : (11:09)
His connection is he was the first investigator on Tom White’s team, and Tom White was the main federal investigator with a team, yet a team of undercover operatives, um, to find the murders, uh, to weeded out the murders of the Osage in Oklahoma during the 1920s,

Bunny : (11:34)
Which is an amazing story in and of itself. Yes, I’m reading the book right now and I’m like, this is history we were never taught. So it’s Right. Um, it’s fascinating. Yep. It’s really fascinating. So, so talk about, um, and, and I wanna know, because we always, always have to keep in mind that there are people listening to this podcast who have never even been to the United States. So, so here’s a guy who is a cowboy on the Bell Ranch, which until quite recently was still a working ranch without mechanization. I mean, when I was in high school, those guys would still come, you know, they’d get off their horses and come to the powwow and, and or get, you know, get their checks and come and hang out in Tucumcari. So, so the Bell Ranch has this storied history all its own. Alex comes to, has a saloon, he ends up helping Tucumcari And, how, what’s the haunting part? What, what, are there parts of Tucumcari that are haunted by Alex? Is that ? Is that the story? ?

Laura : (12:44)
Well, he haunted a lot of Tucumcari just in all of his investigations. So he left quite a, uh, a long, um, mark because he followed, he would pursue, um, as a lawman. He was very known to, to get his, to get his people to, to find, to weed them out. So he would go undercover. And he’s probably one of the earliest undercover operatives. Right. So even during, um, cattle drives, he was an un, he, um, had a team that did some other, because outlaws would hide out on the cattle drives in the early, gosh, mid 1880s. So we talk about one of those stories as well. So that kind of just kinda weaves him in by the time the Osage investigation. And he’s, he works, he takes a job with the F B I and he’s part of Tom White’s team in Oklahoma. I mean, he was already kind of an old guy, , so considerate. Right. So, because he had been, you know, he’d had quite a, quite a past, so, and, uh, was known to find his, um, to find the, to find his culprits, to find the murderers. And so he became widely known, um, throughout Tucumcari . And then when he became a federal agent, he was widely known in the Southwest.

Bunny : (14:04)
So, I want to give every, I first of all, let’s, you’re doing these tours on the 12th and the 13th and the 20th, and I know they, is that right? Yeah. And they start at the depot Give, um, I give us a tease. I mean, first of all, we don’t want anybody to miss this. In fact, I may have to come home if you still have, if you still have tickets. I mean, we may have to come home and be in one of those tours, but just give us a little tease, you know, if I’m somebody who is, um, dying to get on one of these tours, what, what are people gonna see? Just a, just a teaser. Who wants to give me some of that info? Yes, Connie, I

Connie : (14:48)
Will do that one. So, um, like you said, we start down here at the Depot. They usually last about an hour, hour and a half. Um, Annie dresses up in period costume, um, and leads us on a walk through downtown. Um, so it’s kind of an a narrated story. Um, she goes through all of the, the history, um, we tell some of the stories, what we find a lot of times, um, people will start sharing their own experiences in buildings. Um, we’ve learned actual other stories from people that are on the tours. Um, but it’s kind of just a slow paced walk through downtown. And each of the places that we stop tie in with the stories that we’re presenting during the tour. Um, lots of, lots of murder stories, lots of, uh, well, like we said earlier, mayhem, stories, Tucumcari was, was pretty wild.

Connie : (15:45)
Um, and it’s kind of a loop through, through downtown. Each year we’ve done a little bit different of a route. Um, but then it ends up back here at the depot with refreshments. And everybody we have a, a book with some stories and different things, articles that support, um, the stories that we’re talking about, different history things. Um, and then this year we have been lucky enough, Christie and Robert at the Ion Theater, um, are actually able to do, uh, the Killers of the Flower Moon opening weekend. They’re, yes, they are going to be opening the movie on the 20th at the Ion. And each of the tour tickets for our walking tour includes a, uh, movie ticket and, uh, snack combo, um, at the Ion for that opening weekend. So you’re really getting two, um, two tickets for the price of, uh, less than a movie ticket in a big city .

Bunny : (16:49)
So that is so cool. And, and I keep getting ideas, I think , so now I’m like, we, we need to do, uh, we need to do a podcast on the Bell Ranch, and we need to do one on Odeon Theater.

Connie : (17:02)
The Odeon is amazing. Yeah.

Bunny : (17:03)
Yeah. I went there when I was a little girl to see, you know, um, Bambi and, and the Jungle Books. So, um, so, so what if you’re doing the tour on the 20th, is it more expensive because you’re gonna get in the movie? What’s the cost?

Connie : (17:22)
No, it’s $20, um, for the ticket. Wow. Yeah, it’s so, and every ticket includes that. So if you go on the 12th or the 13th, you’re also gonna get a ticket that you can redeem on the 20th oh, that’s cool. At the audience. So, um, yeah, if you come to one of the earlier ones, you can still go to the screening at the Odeon, but yeah, for $20, you’re getting a guided tour through downtown with some really great history. Um, and then that ticket to the Odeon and a snack pack when you get there, I’m gonna let Laura,

Laura : (17:55)
Oh yeah, cool. It’s actually the 13th and 14th, so just,

Bunny : (17:58)
I’m sorry to make sure

Laura : (17:59)
That’s okay. Just wanna make sure. And we have a website, uh, as well where you can buy the tickets. So on Tucumcari main.

Bunny : (18:07)
Alex Street and we have, and there are links to all of that along with some, uh, additional information about Alex Street. I’m really interested in, I mean, this is so cool. I love that you’re doing these tours. I love that people can find them online. And, um, what time do they begin?

Laura : (18:28)
6:00 PM

Bunny : (18:29)
Okay, cool. Yeah. And so, so I wanna talk a little bit though about the other things that Tucumcari Main Street is doing. I had to go, we, we had a property that we sold and I had to go to Tucumcari last week and go to closing. And, things are looking interesting down there, what’s going on?

Connie : (18:50)
We, we’ve got a lot of things going on downtown. Um, we recently completed the first phase of our Great Blocks infrastructure update project. So that was, um, it, the project itself is aimed to make downtown, uh, more pedestrian friendly. And so there’s new sidewalks, new lighting, pedestrian level lighting, landscaping. Um, there’s bump outs that are designed to help slow traffic down. Uh, and so this is the, the project started at the depot with the renovation of the, um, historic Railroad Depot and is moving south along Second Street, um, to, oh gosh, Alex Street, I believe. Mm-hmm. . So it’s three blocks from the depot. And then we’ll be hopefully within the next year or two, starting phase two, which is two blocks on Main Street from First Street to third Street. And so we’re really condensing down, trying to revitalize a little core district within the Main Street district, um, to drive investment and revitalization. So that’s, that’s been our big project, um, lately. But we also, um, run what we call our Forge Business Accelerator Program. And so we started that a couple of years ago. It’s a tiered accelerator program to help, um, people who are interested in starting a business go through the steps of what it takes. Um, they, they learn, uh, financials, they learn, um, customer discovery products, um, oh gosh, my brain, I just lost what I was gonna say. Anyway, it’s, it’s a pretty intensive four week course for the first phase. But at the end of that, they also get, uh, we pair them with a graphic design team, and so they get a full logo package, um, for their business professional logo package. And so all of that is offered free of charge through our, um, partnership with New Mexico Main Street. Uh, we also do events. We just recently had our fired up festival, which is a big street festival that we put on every September. Um, we’re gearing up for our Tookum Scary Block Party. Uh, we started that last year. It was our first year to really do, um, a trick or treat type party for the kids. And we had over 600 kids show up downtown. I think we had 60 families and businesses and organizations that came and set up, um, you know, trunk or Treat style. They set up tents. We had family bring a tractor, uh, but we, we had people from all over come, uh, to participate in a trick or treat event downtown.

Bunny : (21:32)
I love that. It’s called Tucumcari. That is hilarious.

Connie : (21:36)
Isn’t that funny?

Bunny : (21:37)
That’s So cool.

Connie : (21:38)
A play off of, you know, growing up, and you probably growing up in Logan heard people refer to Tucumcari as Tucum-scary. ’cause there wasn’t a whole lot going on . And so we thought we’re gonna take that and make a play off of that word and turn it into something fun and, uh, give it a new meaning. And so we’re hope hopeful it’s gonna be as fun this year.

Bunny : (21:59)
I have so much love for this, you know, all my life I’ve heard stories about, um, well, my dad, when he was 11 years old, used to be the designated driver and bring his brothers and their friends from Porter, which is between San Juan and Logan, to the Armory during World War II so that they could hear Bob Wills play at the Armory. So, oh my goodness, I’ve heard those stories. And then I’ve heard stories about how as teenagers, they would all go to Tucumcari in the forties and fifties, well, forties, because they all got married and started having kids in the fifties. But, my parents were married 73 years this year, so they got married in 1950, but they would all go to town and hang out on Main Street walk, just walk up and down the street. So I have some really fun family stories about that.

Bunny : (22:52)
And I, it’s, you know, I went to Sans Dorsey and had, um, ice cream and sodas when I was a little girl after I’d go to see Dr. S. So this is so near and dear to my heart. So this is the scary part. I wanna know where ghosts have been seen or where somebody may, I mean, I, somebody who’s taught walking around has got to say, oh, I saw a ghost. I mean, I saw a ghost at my granny’s house one time, which is across the street from the museum on Adams Street. So I wanna know where people think they’ve had, um, some supernatural sightings in Annie, you got a story.

Annie : (23:38)
So here, here inside Blanco Creek, we’re in the Masons building, which is, it was built in 1917. Um, and like, literally like a month ago, um, I have my kids with me here at work and my employees bring their kids and, uh, they had a Barbie doll sitting on the floor and the Barbie doll just like went across the floor by

Bunny : (23:56)
Shut the light . Yeah. Well, so I know that building because my aunt Ruby, Ruby Smith was an Eastern Star, and one year she was the grand matron, and we had to come a bunch of cousins and I had to come and sing songs in that building. So. That’s so cool. Um, anybody else? Yeah. Do we have any other Gus stories?

Connie : (24:17)
So my office is down here in the Railroad Depot, which of course was built in, um, 1926, but there was also an older Wooden Depot on site. Um, and I have had lots of interesting things here. Um, I have heard children laughing, um, in the part that’s the museum, and I go peek my head in and there’s nobody in there. Um, yeah, lots of lots of things like that.

Bunny : (24:46)
You just gave me some chills. Yeah. ,

Connie : (24:48)
Stuff moved around in my office one day. I came in and our accreditation plaque from New Mexico Main Street, which is, um, a ceramic tile plaque that hangs, uh, five, six feet off the, off the floor on the wall, had fallen, fallen off the wall, um, and was laying face down in a big wooden w p a or a chair. Uh, not broken, not no scratches, no nothing. Um, so some, I, I think they just like to let us know they’re here sometimes . That’s so cool. I think about all of the emotion of, you know, ever lots of things happened at the train station, lots of feelings and stuff were left here. Um, we know there was a story of a engineer that had a heart attack on a train and made it all the way to tutu care, got the train stopped, uh, came inside and fell over dead. And so . So there,

Bunny : (25:44)
There Lots Of things. You guys are giving me goosebumps. I love that. That’s so cool. And Laura, you have a story,

Laura : (25:52)
Well, a little bit. So just down the street, so that corner, so where Alex and Smith started their saloon in Tucumcari is where the Vorenberg Hotel was.

Bunny : (26:02)
So, so, so tell people what corner that was.

Laura : (26:06)
It’s second and, okay. Connie Second Street.

Bunny : (26:09)
It’s Second and Maine, right?

Laura : (26:10)
Maine, yeah, just second and Maine. And so the, the Vorenberg, um, the outside, the little curves of the windows are really, that’s all that you can see now. But that was originally, um, the Tucumcari Saloon. The first saloon of Tucumcari care was Alex Street. And when it first got established, I think it’s right in that, that same street there, there was a, a whole battle between the Gandy dancers, and the Cowboys. The Gandy dancers were the railroad guys, that come in to work on the railroad, had a little cash, had some money. And so the Cowboys were a little annoyed, probably a lot of ’em working on the Bell Ranch. You know, these guys got more money, they’re giving them, you know, the good whiskey at the saloon, so they get in a battle. And supposedly so it was not in the newspapers. And actually at the time, this was like 1902 barely. And, um, it was not in the newspapers. People just told other people about it secretly, but there was a whole big brawl after midnight, and between nine and 13 people died. , nobody Wow. Knows exactly where they’re buried, but it’s right there, right there on second main area. And so we see some orbs, we see some different things as we go on our walks. So it’s, um, wow. You know, and that was Alex Street, um, street Saloon before he came here.

Bunny : (27:38)
I’m shocked that he, that he lived, I mean, he must have been . He made

Laura : (27:44)
It through a lot.

Bunny : (27:44)
Wow. Never was thrown by a horse, never was shot by a bad guy. . Um,

Laura : (27:51)
Yeah,

Connie : (27:52)
Well there and

Laura : (27:53)
A lot of times he didn’t even carry a gun. Yeah. . Yeah. And he also, uh, hit the Henrietta Schuler murder in Arizona, was after the Osage, um, federal investigation. And he was a lead, uh, federal agent in, in that. And that was, um, uh, very big. You, you know, federal F B I at that point, they had just turned into the F B I and so he led that investigation as well and found the murderer.

Bunny : (28:25)
God, you guys, this has been so much fun. Um, I, we could talk for an hour because I know there are lots more stories, but can we do this again? Can we, can we come back and talk a little bit more about, um, what’s going on in Tucumcari, and share some stories because this, this, this is the stuff I live for. I just, I love stories . Um, and tell us one more time when the tours are, when they start, what they cost and how people can find you.

Connie : (28:58)
Okay. So you can find information about the tours on, uh, Tucumcari main street.org. There’s actually a link on there, um, that you can go and purchase your ticket. And you can also find, um, the handouts from our previous tours, our, um, downloadable pd, uh, PDFs on there as well. Or you can go to our, uh, to carry Main Street Facebook page. That information is also on there. Uh, the, the tours are October 13th and 14th and October 20th, and they start at 6:00 PM at the Tucumcari Railroad depot.

Bunny : (29:32)
And how many people?

Connie : (29:34)
Uh, we take about 20, we cap it at 20. That way, um, it’s easy for everyone to hear what’s going on, on, um, get too many people in the group, and it gets a little harder to, to wrangle everybody around downtown. So we try to, we keep it to 20. Okay. Okay. Well, I’m figuring out which one I’m gonna do and then I’ll see you, right? Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you for having us. It has been really, really fun. Thank you so much.

Speaker 5: (29:58)
Thank you.