Hacking Leadership and Gratitude: Emily Sander

Bunny: (00:09)
I’m so excited today, we have a special guest and I just wanna say that we get a lot of guests from something called Pod Match. And Emily, I have to tell you that I’m so excited that you were matched with us by Pod Match, because I don’t know that I would have seen your book otherwise. And I love it. I wanna let everybody know that our guest today is Emily sander without an S on the end.

Emily : (00:38)
Yep. You got it.

Bunny: (00:39)
Yes. Emily, I’m just reading from your bio here, and I want you to give us a little more background, but you’re a C-suite executive and you’re the founder of next level coaching. You’re an ICF certified coach and you guide clients towards new perspectives that enabled them to adapt and evolve as leaders. You also wrote the book Hacking Executive Leadership, and I made pages of notes while I was reading it. And you know, a lot of our listeners, when the thing, the reason we like Pod Match is because we look for somebody whose information is gonna be really valuable to our listeners. And every time it’s really valuable to me, of course, because I’m a big sponge and I’m learning every day, but I love hacking executive leadership. And I wanna read the entire book to our listeners, but I want you to tell folks a little bit about you first, just so that they know who you are.

Emily : (01:41)
Yeah, certainly well thank you for that overly generous introduction. I’ll try to live up to it. But as you mentioned, I’ve been in the corporate world, uh, amongst various roles. So building and leading client, facing teams, running operations teams, working on the executive leadership team, I currently serve as a chief of staff. And so my principal is our CEO, and I also work with the other executives in our company to keep everyone aligned and on track with the company’s objectives. And then I also have my coaching practice, which is next level coaching, and I’m very grateful and blessed to be able to work with business leaders, business professionals from all around the world, you know, at different stages of their career. And you mentioned the book that did come about from my experience, uh, personally in the corporate world. And then of course working with numerous coaching clients and some of the same themes and tools and concepts and frameworks, which I hope will get into, seemed to be coming up again and again, and helping people in, in different ways. So that was, uh, a, a product of COVID lockdown. It was you know, I had a lot of time on my hands and, and everyone had to adjust. So, uh, the, the book came out of that, which I’m very pleased with and have gotten some good feedback on, but happy to talk about, anything you’d like and would be valuable to, to your listeners.

Bunny: (03:03)
Well, and I wanna, say it’s a book that, the name of it is hacking executive leadership and the subtitle is the, the tagline is go from insecure, indecisive, and overloaded to confident, influential, and effective. And I know I mean, Emily, I’m a solo-preneur and, and we have a lot of people who are, but everything I read in the book was applicable to what I do. And I’m also really involved is the board chair of a local nonprofit. And I thought I gotta have my executive director read and I wanna give it.

Emily : (03:46)
Fantastic.

Bunny: (03:46)
Yeah. I wanna give it to the people that I coach that run real estate teams and, and there’s, and I’m just gonna warn folks up front. I think we’re gonna have to do two of these because I don’t think we can get through all of this in a 45, 50 minute podcast. But, I do, if it’s okay with you, I really wanna read a couple of paragraphs from the intro because it’s one, it was one of those forehead smacking moments when I thought she’s talking to me.

Emily : (04:17)
Absolutely.

Bunny: (04:18)
This is great, you said, I’m guessing you’re a high achiever. You’ve done well in your field through a combination of talent and sheer drive. You’re hungry to get better and believe that self-improvement is a lifelong endeavor. You consider yourself a creative thinker in your brain is always swirling with new ideas. Maybe too many is you always find yourself getting jumbled and overwhelmed, and you don’t know where to start. I think, especially, especially after a year in two years, it’s two years in lockdown. Really. We’ve all absorbed a thousand different ideas and I am 61 years old, and I’m still not sure what I wanna be when I grow up, but you are so good at, uh, helping us, whoever we are, entrepreneurs parents, leaders, executives in large corporations, figure, start to you, give us great hacks for figuring out our focus. And thank you for that. But I mean, you’re so young, how’d you figure all that out. Do you just see the same mistakes over and over and over?

Emily : (05:28)
Well, I’ve made plenty of quote unquote mistakes. I’ve had several stumbling blocks, but one thing that I will say is, um, learning from all of those experiences and especially the so called failures. So the quote unquote failure events where it’s like, oh, that did not go the way I wanted it to, or, you know, even bigger than that, I’m embarrassed cuz this, this decision didn’t turn out well. And instead of kind of sitting down and declaring myself a failure and drowning in pools of pessimism, it was no Emily know where you are in the process, which is you’re, you’ve had something that doesn’t go your way. What is the learning and what is the lesson to apply going forward? And you can actually propel yourself from a, quote unquote failure to progress and to your next level of success. And so, you know, whatever I was raised with that, my parents instilled that in me. I think that’s carried me a long way in that journey.

Bunny: (06:25)
Well, I think I love, you know, Seth, Goden says he who fails the most wins. I mean, you who fails the most because, and you say that we need to have a special, let me see if, if I could, we need to have a special relationship with the concept of failure. And I also like that when you say we have this, we have this fear of failure and you don’t say I’m gonna teach you how to overcome fear. You say, uh, it’s just gonna happen. Talk to us about that.

Emily : (06:55)
Yes, that’s not the popular answer, but I found it to be you the true answer. Everyone wants someone who can make them not feel bad. And the key is knowing that you’re gonna feel a negative feeling and then caring forward and knowing, and just becoming friends with that. Almost being very familiar with that feeling and knowing that that’s actually a mark of success where it’s like, Hey, I’m stepping outside of my comfort zone. I’m stretching myself, I’m doing something new or different and I’m getting better. And I’ve had clients who are so fearful going into say a board meeting presentation, um, and speaking in public. And they just felt that, you know, those nerves, cold sweats, voice, shaking, everything else. And now they still get that little, um, twinge of anxiety or nervousness before they go on. But they go my old friend and that actually means I’m getting ready to do something great.

Emily : (07:48)
And so they almost look forward to it which is an exciting thing to see much easier set than done. And I know some people are listening, going like, I wish I could get there. And I’m so far away from, from that. And I’ve been there and I’ve seen clients there, but just trust me, you can do it and you can get there with the, with the proper tools and, and kind of mindsets going in. But that’s a key point just knowing that it can happen and then putting in the work to make it happen.

Bunny: (08:16)
Well, and you call it a necessary stepping stone to success. I mean, it’s um, if, if we didn’t fail, we wouldn’t progress. Right. Yeah. And is that, is that yeah. And, I love the visual representation that you put in the book. Talk, to my listeners about that because that’s really enlightening, I think.

Emily : (08:44)
Yeah. So I think you’re talking about the failure loop, which is a number of individual loops in a chain. So they’re connected and the overall chain goes up into the right and that’s progress. That’s where you wanna go. However, in the individual loops at the bottom section, there is a point where you’re going back down and to the left. And so that’s where it’s like, whoops, see Daisy, like something did not go well. I just really messed that up. And that’s the point where you say, I know where I am in the process, and I’m gonna take a hard look at what I could have done differently and then apply that going forward. And in that, applying it going forward, you’ve just propelled yourself up to the next loop, which is up and to the right on the overall chain. And so, very good to your point. If you are a person who continually does that throughout your career throughout your life, you are a lifelong learner. You’re making improvements, you’re growing all the time. And so, um, it is absolutely turning a stumbling block into a stepping stone in that sense.

Bunny: (09:43)
Well, I love that. And, I, you know, we’re, we talk about, um, um, being aware more than anything else. Um, our guest last week was as Carrie, he will Breiner. And she talked about how accountability is, is not a negative, as long as you’re aware of the places where you didn’t hold yourself accountable, just, you know, no judgment, just that didn’t happen. That didn’t work that week, that or that, you know, you know, this was coaching clients. You, you can go into a coaching session where you say, why in the world, did you not do the things you said do last week? Or you can go into a coaching session and say something completely different, which is which I you know, I’m just curious about how, how you deal with coaching clients who like me, who come in and say I don’t feel like I made any progress.

Emily : (10:40)
Right? Well, there’s a whole bunch of things to say there. One of the first things that, that comes up is a lot of us are very self critical. And if I go, what are some things that you’re bad at to a client, they can list off, you know, 10 to 12 rada tat tat tat, and then I go, okay, so that’s great. What are some areas of strengths? What do you do really, really well? And it’s like, and it’s crickets and tumbleweeds, and they can’t, they can’t think of anything. And I’m like, I’m sure you can do something well, but all to all to the point of, we’re often very self critical, and we don’t have an objective lens on what we have accomplished and what our strengths are and what might come naturally to us, where it’s hard for other people. And so having a coach or just a friend or, or an objective sounding board to really reflect, you know, what they’re seeing which should enlighten you on stuff that you can work on your development areas, but also know Emily, no Bunny, you Excel in this area.

Emily : (11:36)
You’re my go-to person for this. I really look to you for these types of things. And so I think that’s one, um, big aspect throughout there. And then of course, if you get to a point where, Hey, I had a goal that I didn’t get where I was going, it is a little bit of reverse engineering. You know, why did that come up? Sometimes life happens and a legitimate reason comes up and Hey, my, you know, sister was in a car accident and I had to go help her. Well, that’s probably a legitimate reprioritization you did. If it’s something else, you know, much minor, it’s like, oh, well, I wanted to watch Netflix. And so I decided not to do that. One thing, you can take a look at that and it, but certainly there’s different different aspects to accountability and decision making, which is a huge aspect of leadership as well.

Bunny: (12:21)
Well, and what I read and what I interpreted as I was reading the chapter on failure was that at some point you have to just get over yourself, right? I mean, you have to just choose. I love that. I love that quote by Kobe Bryant, which is, yeah, it didn’t go exactly the way that you expected it to go, but at some point you just gotta get over yourself right. And move forward.

Emily : (12:48)
Exactly. And I love that story, which, which I outlined in the book, but he was young early in his career. And, he was, you know, a superstar in high school and he was trying to get to the next level. And he would he got made fun of cuz he air balled a whole bunch of shots in, in the games and which of course is hugely embarrassing for a basketball player. And he took a hard look at what happens. That was the failure event, quote unquote. And he said why did this happen? What can I do differently? And he had to change his training. He was training like a high school player. And in the NBA you have more games and you have them more frequently. And so he didn’t have the legs. He said, I didn’t have the legs, meaning my legs weren’t strong enough.

Emily : (13:26)
I didn’t have the conditioning to go do that. So he said, I’m gonna get a trainer. I’m gonna plus up my training. And next season, you better watch out. I’m gonna be, I’m gonna have legs for it. And he did. And of course he became one of the, um, the greatest players, you know, the late great Kobe Bryant now. But, um, I think that’s a point where he won. He looked hard at himself in the mirror and said, Hey, where am I coming up short? And then he put in the reps and he put in the time and he put in the effort to get better. And then he put himself out there again, literally stepping on court in front of thousands of people and took and took a chance on himself.

Bunny: (14:03)
Well, and I think that that’s important, I mean, look at it, look at all those athletes, if they had decided to chosen, to quit, chosen to decide that they weren’t good at the game, the first they threw up an air ball. I mean, Michael Jordan says, I missed all the shots I never took. So I just kept taking shots. And there was a percentage of them that hit the goal. And that’s why the person who fails the most wins. Right.

Emily : (14:32)
And I think that can be translated into all of our lives as well. I mean, it’s so easy to stop. It’s just like, oh, that was horrible. I never wanna go near that again. Let me go in a different direction or try to avoid that or try to ignore that or try to not remember that. But if you, if you continue through the process and you push yourself onto your growth edge, which is one step outside of your comfort zone, um, the, the amount of progress and the amount of achievement that you can, that you can do would astound people, people often put a cap on their potential where they’re usually at, you know, 30, 40% of the, their potential. And they’re thinking, no, I’m, I’m tapped out. I can’t go any further. I’ve reached my limit. And I would really encourage people to, when you run into that first couple stumbling blocks to know where you are and keep going, because there’s rewards on the other end of that of that journey.

Bunny: (15:27)
So everything I read in the book from the beginning, Emily, I’m sure you planned it this way because I get that impression that you, it feels to me like it’s a stepping a building, you know, it’s, you know, it’s sort of like, um, stacking habits, but you’re building on, you know, first, first you gotta figure out that you’re gonna fail and that it’s, it’s gonna be painful, but it’s to propel you forward when you figure out what that meant for you. Right. And then and really we could spend the entire, all of this time talking about failure because you say that failure is practice, right.

Emily : (16:08)
It is it. Yeah. I mean the most basic it example is think of a baby, a toddler, and they’re learning how to walk.

Bunny: (16:17)
That’s a great example I love that!

Emily : (16:18)
And no one would ever run up to the mother and be like I’m sorry, but did you just see your son fail? Like he’s a failure. He should stop doing that. Like no one would ever, no one would ever say that. And it’s the same process. I mean, you’re, you’re learning how to do something and you’re, you’re trying and figuring out and falling and stumbling and then getting better. And so just the same process as we get to be adults. And, um, one great way to think about it is, Hey, Nope. It is just a practice round, you know, Hey, I learned something from that. It’s an experience instead of putting kind of that second layer of pressure on yourself. So maybe it is like an event that you’re going to, like, I’m going to a board meeting or a presentation, like, okay, that is what it is in reality. And then we often put this second layer of pressure on ourselves. We’re like, oh my gosh, I have to perform. And everyone’s like looking at every little thing I do. And we, we add that to us. No, this practice, this is life. I will serve, even if I fall on my face in this board meeting, or things don’t go as well as I wanted to, I will be fine and I will learn. So, I think that’s, to me it’s just like kind of all a, all a practice round and it’s a nice way to kind of take some pressure off of ourselves.

Bunny: (17:31)
Wow. I love that. You know, I am the board chair of this local nonprofit and the person who was the board chair before me did it for 11 years and did it at such a high level of success. And he was an executive at Proctor and gamble, and he knew how to lead a me meeting. And this is where I, and I became the board chair last August, 11 years. He’s led this group and, you know the progress has been exponential. And then I have to go into board meetings and I’m like this farm girl from Eastern New Mexico. And I think, and he’s in the board meeting and I’m like, how can I’m all grown up, but how can I even do this? And I wish I had had that bit of advice because luckily, luckily that day had, I had run into somebody I really admire. And he said, Bunny, the only thing you can do is just be yourself. And I suspect if you fail your, it won’t kill anybody. And I thought, well, that’s one way to look at it. But we, we do that to ourselves all the time. You know, it’s like riding a horse on a horse, going into the meeting is riding a horse, but getting anxious about it and thinking it has to be perfect, which you address is, is, you know, the, the trap of perfection when we could just be good enough. Um, I mean, that’s, that’s, it’s, it’s really important. Yeah. I love the way that you structured this book because you, you have a really conversational tone and you have a storyteller’s tone, and then you offer these pro tips throughout and like the pro tip in the failure chapter, which is the first chapter you said, remember, failure is a reflection of something that happened. It does not define who you are as a person. And it is important to note the difference between being disappointed in an outcome versus questioning yourself worth. I it’s like that old, you know, one of the four rules. I can’t think, I can’t remember the book is, but is don’t take it personally, right? Yeah.

Emily : (19:35)
Easier said than done. Believe you, me easier said than done. I know, but it’s an important one. It’s an important one to remember. I think a lot of us internalize and, and take things personally, when, you know, I’ve been in business dealings and settings where someone’s just, you know, act in a certain way, cuz they have a certain amount of power title or what-not. And so anyone in my position, they would be treating the way that they are. And so it’s not me, Emily Sander. It’s just the person in, in that role, which is again, easier said than done. And they shouldn’t be behaving in, in that way at certain times, but, uh, it does happen. But again, it’s really, uh, being self aware of what you’re allowing in as well. So we often think that, uh, you know, things happen to us and certainly circumstances are presented to us and external events will happen, but we always have that innate power within us to say, Hey, I’m going to allow you to make me feel little. I’m gonna allow you to make me feel bad or like, Nope, I’m gonna take what you said as an offering. I can take that or leave it. You know, you’re entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to ignore it. Um, and so just retaining, retaining that sense of, uh, of empowerment within yourself. I mean you, no matter what circumstance you go through, you can always hold onto that, which I think a lot of people, um, give away, they walk around and just give away, you know, okay. You can make me feel bad. I’m like, you know, I’ll give you the permission to set my mood. And uh, you know, they go out in their day and say, um, you know, what is the day gonna do? Or what does it hold instead of being like the day has to deal with me. So I’m gonna watch this and the day has to deal with me, uh, which

Bunny: (21:20)
I think that could be the title of your next book. The day Has to Deal with Me because that’s a really powerful statement. If we could, you know, my mantra as you start the day out saying, thank you, thank you. Thank you. But I also think that if you’re in a high pressure situation, you can say, I don’t have to deal with the day. The day has to deal with me. That’s really given yourself a lot of power.

Emily : (21:42)
Yeah. Sometimes guys give yourself a pep talk. There is a time and place for that. And so, you know, whatever boot music, a picture is saying anything, get it going. I mean, you’ve got a lot to offer the world and you’ve gotta take it by the horns.

Bunny: (21:56)
So you talk, when you say that about giving yourself a pep talk, you say you’re so we’re so hypocritical because we are so supportive of our, I mean, it’s just more of this negative self talk, right? That, maybe we just, maybe we need to ask somebody else for input. Like I did that friend of mine who said Bunny, just be yourself. I mean, you don’t, we don’t, I don’t, I just, I feel like, we don’t, and this seems to be more prevalent in women than men. We don’t give ourselves enough credit for how good we already are at our job. I mean, we’re not just fearful. We’re Fearful that we personally are not, adequate to a task.

Emily : (22:40)
Yeah. I mean, I think I’m trying to get this quote, right. But there’s this sense that if you’re trying to impersonate someone, even if you do the best impersonation of the, and you’re never gonna be them and no one can be a better version of you than you like literally no one on the planet and think about that, no one in the world can be a better you than you. So you might as well kind of sit into it and settle into it and you know, own it and be proud of it. Cuz if you walk into any situation and you are trying to impress someone else, um, or, uh, pay attention to someone’s perception and they don’t like you, you have a problem. But if you walk in saying, Hey, I’m trying to be me, that’s always in your control and you’re always gonna win that. So, again, just kind of turning it, inward to yourself and saying, no, like no one else in this room is gonna be a better me than me. And so I know I could do that the best.

Bunny: (23:33)
And that is in the section where you say, run your race. That’s you know, avoid comparing yourself and you say, this is good all the time, but it’s especially good when you’re at the bottom of one of those loops, you know, I, you know, there there’s a rule of life that says don’t compare your insights to everybody else’s outsides. And I think there’s a quote in the book where you say, or maybe I just read it this morning where it’s like, don’t compare your worst day to somebody else’s read letter day. I mean, you can’t, we have to stop comparing ourselves. We have to start loving what’s inside of us.

Emily : (24:10)
Yeah. And especially, don’t compare your day-to-day to someone else’s highlight reel. So we see on Instagram and

Bunny: (24:17)
Social media

Emily : (24:18)
And social media, like, oh my gosh, they look so put together and oh my gosh, they were so articulate in this one interview. When really, you know, they probably sit in their sweatpants and kind of have their hair all messy when they wake up too. So, um, it’s just remembering kind of you’re, you’re seeing a very small sliver of their life and you’re seeing often on social media, what people want you to see about them. But there is a certainly, you know, comparison is the thief of joy I think, is the other, is the other.

Bunny: (24:47)
Wow. Yeah, well, we’re writing that one down. So talk about taking the smallest win. And I wanna build, we did a podcast a few weeks ago with a woman who, who was my age and her, she was in her mid sixties and she had just learned to love her herself. And in that process, she lost a hundred pounds and she got back her healthiest self physically, emotionally, and mentally. And she said in that process, she had to learn how to take the tiniest win and turn it into a celebration. And when I read that, like you, and so sometimes instead of a looking at failure in the entire event, look for the smallest win. That’s what you say in the book.

Emily : (25:33)
Right? Right. So if you’ve, if you’ve gone through something tough it’s easy to kind of throw the baby out with the bath water, if that was all bad, like everything about that was negative. And usually if you look back and reflect, you know, when you’re in a little bit calmer head space and ask yourself what went well, what tiny things went well about that? Or, you know, if an overall presentation didn’t go well, well, what sections did I actually, speak like I wanted to at? And you can usually find some, you can usually find, even if it’s the tiniest thing. And I would either make a mental note or literally make a note and write those down just so you can see them on paper. And just so you can see them like, yes, you know, some of these things didn’t go the way I wanted, but here are some tangible things that I can list off to myself or to someone else that actually went well and apply those going forward as well, because those are important too. And, you know, taking small wins is a great mindset to have, at any point in time, especially if you have a long project, so you’re working on a long term goal or objective, and you’re like, oh my gosh, like in three years I might complete this, you know, MBA program or what-not, but that’s, you know, that’s hard to kind of lock onto. And so it might be; okay this week, today, this hour, what are my small wins? What are the small wins that I’m gonna rack up that will get me on my path? Um, and an example I gave in the book is when I was little, I was coming home from school. I was in middle school and I just done a math test. I, that I gotten a horrible result back and the paper was all drenched with red ink. It was double-sided. I remember it bled through, um, cuz the teacher made marks on both sides. And I was like, oh my gosh. And I came home and my brother was home from college and he could tell I was a bit down and he said, M like, what’s wrong? I said, I failed my math. I failed everything. And he looked at it and he looked down one side and he turned it over and looked down the other side. And he said, you know, the three that you got right out of these 20 showed that, you know what division is because you got them Right. And it was because the number was divided by one. So it was literally the easiest division problem you could have, but he, God bless him pulled out that small win for his little, little sister who was like tearing up, um, and said, no, like these ones show that you know what it is. And if you apply this to the bigger numbers, you’ll get it. And I was like, thank you. And that was the epitome of a small win. I had failed the test. I was horrible at math in that class. But the three problems I got right were my small win. And I took ’em. I ran with them.

Bunny: (28:03)
I love that story. I thought that was exceptionally good. I love it. I, there’s the other thing that you talk about, and I read this when I pulled your book up on Amazon, I read this description about, um, one of what’s, one of the hacks that, um, the Seattle Seahawks coach, you know, that was part of the, and I couldn’t wait to get to that, cuz I thought here, we’re talking about executive leadership, but you’re gonna talk about a play. And, and this is in the section where you talk about the difference between decision and outcome and getting what failure is and what it isn’t. So, tell that story. That’s a mind opener for me.

Emily : (28:45)
Yeah. So a lot of people fuse together, a decision and an outcome. So they’ll say that was a bad decision because the outcome didn’t go like I wanted, or that was a really good decision when the outcome is positive. And so the example that you’ve alluded to is, Pete Carroll, who is the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks. So football, he was in the super bowl. So the biggest game ever and the Seahawks and I’m from Seattle. So I was watching this game. Seahawks were about to win. They had one yard to go and everyone thought it was gonna be a run play, Russell Wilson, the quarterback was gonna hand it off to Marshan Lynch. He was gonna run it in. They were some of the best players at the world at that. They have done it time and time again was a passing play and the Patriots intercepted that pass and they won the game. And so it was like a last minute, one yard just crestfallen, you know, shattering loss. And of course everyone was like, what the heck were you doing? That should have been a run play. And Pete Carroll got slaughtered in the press. He got eviscerated by the press and he took one, he took responsibility for it. And two, he said that was the statistically highest probability play we could do. The path play was the correct decision to make. Now the outcome obviously was not what we wanted, but he was able to separate the decision from the outcome. Even with, you know, the national press coming down on him, he was able to, you know, politely and respectfully say, Hey, I understand the outcome was horrible. I feel awful. That was my call for, for the team. But the decision itself was a sound one and he walked people through why it was. Um, and so I think often we, uh, just automatically paired together decisions and outcomes when really you could have made a very good decision. And the outcome might not be under your control or just might not have gone your way.

Bunny: (30:40)
Well, and don’t you find that people tend to either get paralyzed by decision making because they’re so fearful of the outcome or they make a decision and, and then they, if, if the outcome is bad, they I’m never, I’m never making a decision like that. Again, I’m not, I mean, I’m kind of wanna talk through that because I think, you know, I’m a living example of this I’ve been, this is I’m in my fourth marriage. And if I had decided after the first one, I’m never gonna try to eat. I would not be married to the best guy in the world now. But so I’m, you know, I’m a case study for you, but, however, you know, we don’t, we make decisions based on the information we have at the moment. And if it’s not accurate information, we can’t continue to think we’re bad decision makers. Right?

Emily : (31:35)
That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. So you hit it. If you make the best decision you can, with all the information you have at the time, you, by definition could not have made a better decision. So, you know, as leaders in business and in life, sometimes we have to make them quickly. And sometimes we have to make decisions with incomplete information, but if we’re making the best decision we can with all the information we have at the time, that is our, that is our best decision. Now more data could come in after the fact and, you know, hindsight 2020 is a lovely thing. Great. You know, do the reflection. But I often tell my clients was that the best decision you could make at the time. And if they say yes, then we’ll kind of walk through, okay. You know, what, what other factors came into it? But if they say no and they look at me and I can kind of like, okay, in your heart of hearts, you knew even at the time you knew that wasn’t the best decision and maybe you took the easy path versus the hard one, or maybe you tried to weasel your way into something that you shouldn’t have done. Then it’s a matter of like, okay, you need to look at your decision making process on that one, but more often than not. If people can remember to put that little bit of space in between decision and outcome, it, it opens it up, but it kind of takes a weight off of your, off of your shoulders. So that’s a really good exercise to go through.

Bunny: (32:59)
Well, and just so everybody knows at the end of every chapter, cause we’re just, now done talking about the first chapter there’s so it’s so rich, but at the end of every chapter, Emily, you list these key takeaways and key questions. And, I think that’s really brilliant too, but you do, you, you said this thing about hindsight is 2020, and I just wanna read that pro-tip, because you say like a car, you have a tiny rear view mirror and a great big windshield and where you’re going is much more important than what’s behind you. And I know that, I mean, I know that, you know, my twenties, thirties and forties were kind of a train wreck, however, look at all, look at all this future I have ahead of me. I learned so I don’t want to not get to the swizzle part because that’s the next chapter. And then we’re, you know, we are gonna have to do this again, Emily. I hope you come back because so much to unpack here, but I love the swizzle piece. So define swizzle. And I’m saying swizzle, it spelled the same way as a stick.

Emily : (34:10)
So yeah, it is. So swwizzle is a framework and it’s a way to be a creative thinker and be resourceful. So I actually came up with that word. I was busy and trying to tell people how to do a PowerPoint deck. And I was like, just take some of this and take some of that and whizz it together and make our deck cause I couldn’t think of, the actual, so what it means is taking the best components of multiple things, um, and making a brand new thing. Uh that’s, that’s relevant to you. And one example I like to give on this is I was listening to a podcast with Floyd Mayweather and he’s a champion boxer and I don’t know anything about boxing. You don’t wanna see me box anyone, but I was listening to this and the interviewer was trying to get him to say, you know, why are you so good? Is it your training? Is it your footwork? Is it your quick hands? And Floyd Mayweather finally said is my adaptability. And I, he said, I can adapt to any opponent, any round at any punch, better than anyone else can. And that’s why I’m champion. And when I heard that, I was like, Ugh, like light bulb moment. I’m not a boxer, but I can take that concept and lift it and shift it into my world, which is business and saying, am I adaptable? Am I adapting for my teams, flexing to the person I’m talking to? So my communication lands effectively with them. Uh, so I could apply that and I could swizzle that concept, um, into my world. So I think it’s just a good way to, uh, keep an eye out in different areas of your life and just be really creative about how you problem solve and what, what resources you pull from.

Bunny: (35:43)
Well, and you say, this is not about impersonating somebody else. This is about learning and kind of becoming an amalgamation of really good information and really good be behaviors. Right?

Emily : (35:58)
Exactly. That’s a key point. So thank you for bringing that up. So, you know I’m trying to become a good speaker and a good communicator. And so of course, I’ll go out and listen to people that are, are great communicators and get up and speak in front of people. And sometimes, um, that’s very inspiring to watch them do thing, but like, that’s not me. Like if I tried to do what he or she is doing, I would just be impersonating them and trying to become a different person. And so maybe there’s a certain aspect or a certain element of what they’re doing, which would really resonate with me and which would really serve me well to incorporate into my, into my toolbox, so to speak, but I wouldn’t take the whole thing. I would just take what’s best for me and what’s relevant to me. And then I would go through and say, okay, here’s another speaker, here’s another style. Oh, that’s interesting how they approach that or how they frame their answers or questions. And I’ll take those elements and say, okay, these ones I can use and incorporate into, into my repartee and go for from there. So exactly right. You’re not impersonating anyone. You’re taking the best and relevant pieces to you and build them into your life and your makeup. And so, and those elements by the way, will be different for every individual because what might really work for me could be completely different in opposite for what will work for you buddy. And that’s perfectly fine. We can each swizzle our own elements, but yes, it’s just being on the lookout and saying, oh, there’s a little piece of that. Or even the spirit of something, I can take the spirit of what she’s saying and, you know, apply it to, to my world over here.

Bunny: (37:35)
So you talk about the book essentialism by Greg McEwen. And I that’s a great book, but I was reminded of it. And I wanna go back and read it, but you do this diagram. And I wish that people could see us. This is just audio, but you do a diagram that is a circle with a bunch of different spokes pointing out, you know, the circle is energy. And then, and then you do a diagram where it’s just one arrow pointing out, talk about what we do with our energy.

Emily : (38:04)
Yes. So essentialism, absolutely that book essentialism is one of my top recommended books for leaders. So if you haven’t checked that out, I, I would highly recommend it, but yes, that’s the point of, you know, we can do 12 things. Sure we can and we can get so far in them. And so in that diagram, you’re talking about the, the circle is energy. So the amount of energy you have, which is finite every day, and if you have 12 arrows going out, they might go a little ways. So in the diagram, each, each of the arrows goes a little bit, uh, away from the circle. If instead you pick one thing, you can get a lot further in that, in that thing. And so the second diagram where there’s a circle and there’s one arrow, that arrow goes a lot further and so you get a lot more accomplished. And so I think that’s a great thing to keep in mind, especially for you were saying before my brain is always swirling. I’m always up to a whole bunch of different things and I’ve run into people like that, all of my life. And, uh, sometimes it works for them and sometimes they like being kind of on that edge of chaos. And sometimes I talk to people and it’s like, Hey, you know what happens if you pick two or three things and, you know, you had to make a sacrifice to, to not do the others right now, if you did two or three things, could you get farther? Could you do those better? Could you be better for the people around you working on those things? And they go, oh, okay. And so we have that conversation, but just the, just the principle and the framework of like, okay, where am I spending my energy? Am I spread too thin to the point? Or I’m not doing well at any of these 12 things, would I be better served by picking one, two or three things to really focus on and get further on those?

Bunny: (39:44)
Well, and that, and I’m just gonna be really, honest that’s, always been my difficulty because I was raised in a household where we just said yes to everything. You know, my parents, you know, they gave all their time away to the community, which is, they were, you know, they, that was, their philanthropy. They didn’t have a lot of money, but they gave away a lot of time. And so I really, as an adult thought, if somebody asked me to do something, it’s, it’s almost that every opportunity becomes an obligation and that’s a hard ha to break. And I finally had a coach once who said, um, you gotta say no 10 times this week. I was like, what was a really hard exercise? And I love this. And I’m, I’m not even sure if it’s in this, this, this chapter, but I love the, the so up heading where you say, everything’s got, you want things to be either a hell yes or a hard, no, we can’t continue to give our energy away unless we’re really enthusiastic about something or passionate. Right. And if we’re not, it’s gotta be a no.

Emily : (40:56)
Yep. I love that. Yeah. So we all know when we get that feeling, it’s like someone asked me for help and it’s kind of an obligation or like, no, I like that person. And I wanna be helpful, which is a huge draw. Right. We all wanna be helpful. No one wants to be like, oh, like you didn’t wanna help me. Um, but we’ve all, I think we’ve all felt, or hopefully felt like, oh my gosh, I’m energized. Like I literally like that excites me. I’m enthusiastic. Think about that project. And those are the ones, the hell yeses are the ones that you should be putting your time of energy to. Um, a great quote that I love is, uh, freedom is on the other side of no. So yes.

Bunny: (41:32)
So

Emily : (41:33)
Every time you say, no you buy freedom for yourself and, you know, you don’t wanna spread yourself too thin. And further to that, the, when you do say yes, and when you do help people, you’re actually helping them in a better way. Your quality of help is better. So, um, you’re serving yourself and you’re serving the people that you do say to better versus kind of giving someone a half-ass, um, you know, helping, helping hand. So I would keep those things in mind too. I get it. I get the pull. I feel that myself and I had to go through this process myself, but I will tell you freedom is on the other side of no. And going with your gut check and saying like, yes, I I’m so passionate and enthusiastic about this process. It’ll just be a much more rewarding experience for you. And also a higher quality work product for whatever you’re for whatever you’re putting out there.

Bunny: (42:26)
Well, and, and, and the thing is that every time you say yes, and I learned this the hard way, I had a team leader at my real estate, eight brokerage who saw that I was somebody who said yes all the time. And she said, your experience, would you take on four new baby realtors and coach them? And when they sell something, you can have a portion of their commission. And I was like, oh, yes, I’ll do that. And, and then I talked to my coach and she said, funny, you know, every time you say yes is something you’re saying no to something else. And I don’t know how I had to get to be that old to learn that. But every time you say yes, I think we have to learn that every time we say yes, we’re saying no to something else. And it may be something that’s much more vital to our well-being.

Emily : (43:13)
Right. There’s a, a question I think they’re about opportunity costs. So what is this costing you, if you say yes to this, what is it gonna cost you? Which is rightly mentioned. And I think, you know, if you zoom out and we say, okay, you know, you can do the exercise of where, what is my priority and, you know, where are my values and what do I wanna be spending my time and kind of take a minute, zoom out, get into a place where you can really think about that question, because then we get kind of sucked into day to day stuff. When we get in tunnel vision and we get, you know, emails and texts and everything. And we’re like, yes. Okay, cool. And we have to remember to stay attached and align to what was my larger vision. What was, what was the priorities I set out for myself?

Emily : (43:55)
And a lot of clients that I work with their priorities are in flux, they’re changing. So maybe, you know, they were in one part of their career where something was important, title compensation, um, you know, team size, how many people were reporting to them was important. Fine. And now when they’re getting into their mid or even later career, it’s, I want influence, I want a voice at the table. I want to be giving back and mentoring the next generation of leaders and that’s the priority for them. So that’s just an example in the professional world, but of course in our, um, in our personal lives and outside of work, we have these priority shifts as well with, you know, family and different things we have going on. But I think it’s a great thing for anyone listening to say, like, what are my priorities? Could I articulate them to myself or to someone else? And are they the same? Like, are those really my priorities? Or am I just kind of carrying them forward from 5, 10, 15 years ago? And, um, a second step of that is, okay, let me look at my calendar for the last month, two months, three months, or the month ahead, two months ahead, three months ahead. And is what I’m doing is, is my actual actions aligning with the priorities I just said. So are you putting your money where your mouth is? Are you spending the time and doing the actions that align with those highest priorities?

Bunny: (45:17)
Well, that in itself, just knowing what your aiming point is and knowing what you, that everything you say yes to points in the direction of that, what will you say your vision? You know, I think of it as my aiming point, but, um, so, so I have to tell everybody what Emily and I are running out of time, but this, we are going to put a link to your book in the podcast, and then we’re gonna schedule you again. Cause they’re, so… Your insights are really valuable. And I, um, when I knew you were gonna be on the calendar, I got the book and I read the part one, and then I went back and read it again. And so I can’t wait to get to part two, which is all about the actual hands on piece of what you do in the workplace with a team with, within that structure. And, and so Emily, will you come back and talk to us again?

Emily : (46:17)
Absolutely. I would love to, you’ve asked some of the most insightful questions I’ve gotten from a host, so I would be more than happy to come back.

Bunny: (46:24)
This was so much fun and you’re, I mean, we all know that hacks are just another way to live your life. Well, give me your definition of a hack.

Emily : (46:35)
Yeah. So, hacking is not a shortcut in this sense. I know that’s one meaning, but it’s really taking a look at your internal makeup. So, you know, if we all have our belief sets and values and different lenses that we’re looking at through the world hacking into that, because that’s what you have both control of. And that just creates and shapes your world so much. So attacking, um, that part of yourself and that part of executive leadership to, to really get into the fabric of what makes you up. And, um, if there’s bad code, so to speak somewhere running in there, there’s a bad program or old program, replacing that with something that’s gonna serve you better. So you can create, and you can create the type of leader you wanna be. You can create the type of person you wanna be. You can be aware and have power over the lens that you’re looking at the world through. And that’s really powerful. And we can get into that in part two. Cause I talk about it in the chapters with contact lens and, uh, mindset and belief set and all those, all those things. So a little teaser for, for part two, but hacking is kind of taking a look at, uh, those components and those elements and saying, Hmm, is this what I want it to be? And if not, like, let me change it and let me hack into that.

Bunny: (47:49)
Well, thank you so much for this. Oh, and by the way, if somebody needs a good executive coach, do you still have openings?

Emily : (47:55)
I do. So I don’t know when this will air, but currently I do. And the best place to, to check that out is my website, which is nextlevel.coach. So next level, all one word .coach, and you can learn more about it there.

Bunny: (48:08)
All right. They thank you so much, Emily, this has been fun and I’ve learned so much.

Emily : (48:12)
Absolutely. Thank you, bunny. It’s been a pleasure.

Bunny: (48:15)
That’s all we’ve got today. Friends. I wanna thank you for joining the lifesaving gratitude podcast with your host Bunny Terry, that’s me and my producer and assistant Johanna Medina. We feel like we’re in the business of sharing the stories that save us and we hope you’ll share as well by letting your friends and family know about the podcast follow and like us wherever you listed. And please take the time to leave a review, whether it’s a stellar comment or a suggestion, we are open to suggestions all the time. Also follow us on Instagram at live saving gratitude pod. You can also follow me personally at bunny Terry, Santa Fe. You can sign up @mywebsiteatbunnyterry.com to receive weekly emails about how to become the ultimate gratitude nerd. Thanks so much for checking in.

Bunny: Hi everyone. This is Bunny with the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. Just in case you don’t know me, I am a stage four colon cancer survivor and the author of Lifesaving Gratitude, which is a book about how gratitude helped me kick cancer’s ass. 

Today we’re going to talk to a special guest about how marketing and marketers can use gratitude to create business and connections with clients and also for themselves to create a really positive way to do their job. But first, I just want to thank you for being here and ask that you download the podcast if you’d like. And certainly subscribe wherever you listen to other podcasts. But enough about me and enough about the podcast. 

I want to introduce you to my special guest, who’s also a friend. Craig Cunningham is currently a realtor with Keller Williams, Santa Fe. And that’s how I met him. However, this is a recent career for him and he was, and correct me if I mispronounce the word, but you were a hotelier. Is that the way to say that?

Craig: Yes. 

Bunny: Yes. He’s spent 30 years in corporate sales and marketing. He’s traveled extensively. I’m going to let him tell you all the places that he’s been to, but he is the founder and principal of Cunningham + Colleagues marketing consultants. He was in the past the VP of marketing and quality for Seaport Hotels and World Centers and the VP of marketing for Core North America. So welcome Craig Cunningham.

Craig: Thanks so much for having me on your podcast.

Bunny: I’m excited. I know you have some great tips for all of our listeners. When I think about these podcasts, I always think about the people that are going to want the information we’re offering. I mean, we’re here to help people and we’re here to figure out how gratitude can make everyone’s life not just easier and simpler, but also fuller. So why don’t you start, Greg? Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us how in the world you ended up in this completely different career? And yet the truth is we’re still just marketers first and realtors, second. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell our listeners.

Craig: Yeah. So, as you said, I’ve been in marketing and sales for more than 30 years. I actually started off with an advertising and PR agency and then had the good fortune to be hired by my hotel client at the time, Wyndham hotels. At that time it was a North American chain and it’s now international. 

But from then on, I was in the hotel business. It’s definitely a career where if you are not focused on client service and the whole concept of gratitude, you’re not going to be successful. I always thought of our job as just surprising and delighting our guests and making them feel like they chose the right hotel to be with. And so it was always about waking up every day and saying, “What can I do to make somebody’s day and to give them a great experience?” And, of course, to do this you have to be grateful because they opted to choose your hotel over the million other choices that they had. 

So when I retired from the hotel business two years ago, I was trying to figure out what else I wanted to do with my life. I started doing more volunteering. I volunteer with Kitchen Angels here in Santa Fe to deliver meals to people who are not able to leave their homes. But I also started thinking of whether I wanted to do something else from a professional standpoint and the real estate business seemed like a natural extension, because it’s all about client service. You have to figure out ways to make people feel like they’ve made the right choice in working with you. So it’s all about being grateful every day and figuring out what can I do to help them today. How else can I extend what I’m doing for them in a way that they will appreciate and know that I appreciate them. So that’s what it’s really all about, because of course they could work with a million other other people

Bunny: Right. And let’s talk for just a second. Don’t you think that marketing has changed over the 30 years that you’ve been doing this? I mean, it seems to me that when we were kids, which was back before the crust cooled, we were sort of marketed at. Just talk for a minute about how marketing is different now than it was 10 years ago or 30 years ago.

Craig: It’s funny, because I was going to say the exact same thing. Back in the day, you were running a TV ad or a radio spot or a print ad and it was passive in that you just presented the information, unless you were direct sales. But really with the advent of so much digital media, you are instantly able to forge a relationship with customers through social media, through Facebook, Instagram, where you’re having a dialogue with them from the very beginning. This allows you to work in a much more personal way and to be able to find out much more quickly how you can serve those people. 

So I think it’s changed completely. Before you just sort of put it out there into the ether and hope that something worked, and now you’re able to engage. And I’ve found that so much in real estate where I’m getting emails from folks and then it evolves from the email into a phone call or a zoom call or something like that instantly. I think that’s so much better for both people. Especially for somebody like me who wants to find ways to engage with people and to be of service to them, it makes it a lot easier and more rewarding.

Bunny: I just think about the ways that I connect with my clients. It’s as if you’re somehow conveying to those people that you’re grateful that they showed up.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, my whole thought is that it’s not a transaction, it’s a relationship. And that relationship can be multifaceted. Once you’ve sold them a house or sold their house, I like to think that we’ve formed a friendship and a bond and that relationship is going to continue. And honestly, I don’t even care if I ever get another piece of business for them. Now think of them as friends. I want to have them to my house for dinner or go have coffee or something like that. 

I think that kind of thing that makes a difference for people in wanting to work with me.  It’s coming from a position of wanting to be of service to them and wanting to make them happy and finding the right solution for them. I’m working with some first-time-buyers right now and I kind of feel like they’re my kids. It’s about, okay, how can I really help them with this? And they’re grateful for the counsel I’m able to give to them, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to work with them. So it’s very rewarding. I think if you approach business relationships in the same way as you would with your friends, it’s a win-win situation for everybody.

Bunny: Well, talking about those first-time home buyers, I mean, that’s one of my favorite deals. You never make the most money from those transactions, but I’m so grateful to be reminded that we are providing the American dream when we’re selling real estate. Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s my favorite experience.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, for somebody to have their first home and to be excited about how they’re going to decorate it and what they’re going to do. And with this young couple, seeing them excited when they see a house brings out all my empathy and makes me want to really go the extra mile for them to make sure they find the right house at the right price for them. And then I just never want to stop. So then it’s like, “Okay, now I’m going to find this person for you to do the plumbing, and I’m going to find this person, etc, and I’ll be with you with you  to help explain things.” I just want to really continue to be of service.

Bunny: I talk a lot, especially on my blog, about Judy Camp, who was one of my first real estate mentors. She was a great friend and Linda Gammons partner for a long time before she passed away. But Judy Camp always says, “If you come from contribution, you can’t help but be successful.”

Craig: Yeah. I mean, just as I was saying, you can’t think of it as a transaction. I think, coming from contribution, how can I help you? How can I make this a better experience? How can I make this work? Because, especially in a real estate transaction, it can be stressful. It’s the biggest financial transaction for the majority of us. So how do you take the burden and the pressure away from them and sort of guide them through the process? I just think the main thing is that it’s much more fun, whether you’re doing volunteer work or in business, to wake up every day and figure out how I could make it fun for somebody else. Because then it’s fun for you and it gets you excited and passionate about what you’re doing.

Bunny: Well, it sounds like our big “why’s” are really similar. I certainly don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but it sounds like your big “why” is just to make the life of the people you come in contact with better.

Craig: Yeah. Of course making money is nice, but there are lots of ways to make money. It’s more about whether you are getting energy from it. And I think you really get energy when you’re working with someone and trying to figure out how you can help them, how you can make their day better, how you can make the service that you’re providing better. And also just doing things that saying, “What about if I do X, Y, Z?” and they’re  like, “Oh, you’ll do that for me?” And I’m like, “Of course.”

I have another set of clients where the transaction was fairly complicated and we were looking at lots of properties. Coming from a corporate background, I love to do spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations—things like that. And so after about the third thing we had to do, they’re like, “Oh, how are we going to organize all these bids?”  And then one of the guys said to the other guy, “Well, Craig’s going to do a spreadsheet for us. He’s probably already got it done.” So it’s that kind of thing where you’re looking for ways to make their experience better.

Bunny: So this is always a funny question for me to ask, because I have such a loose gratitude practice other than just waking up in the morning and saying, “thank you, thank you, thank you,” and then writing things down, but do you have a practice that you follow that helps you both in your business and your personal life?

Craig: Well, since I came into real estate with Keller Williams, which focuses a lot on being servant leaders and helping people, I’ve gotten into the habit of writing three things I’m grateful for that day. It could be that it’s a beautiful day or a dog or my partner or the opportunity to help somebody or the coffee’s really good that day, but waking up and appreciating what you have in your life is a good way to get in a good mindset for the rest of it.

Bunny: Oh, absolutely. Something I always say is that we kind of rewire our brains. We do. We create new neural pathways every time we say that we’re grateful. So in terms of nuts and bolts, is there a way that you let your clients know? I mean, I find that there are a lot of young people, young entrepreneurs or people who are new to business, who forget how to tell their clients how they’re grateful for them, even if it’s a line in an email. Do you have something that you do specifically over and over?

Craig: I think for me, it’s maybe more in the actions. I think of “This is really going to be helpful if I do this or if I provide this information.” I think it’s always in my voice and the way that I write. I try to always communicate openly and in a friendly and conversational manner. But then I also think “It would be really cool and really helpful if I did X , Y , Z.” I created a whole PowerPoint just on the neighborhoods in Santa Fe, because if you’re out of town it gets confusing. And that came out of a client saying, “Well, I don’t really know the neighborhoods.” And I thought that this would be a great tool for them. So I created it and then I was able to use it with others. 

So I think for me, maybe it’s sort of on the fly. I used to say in the hotel hotel business, “How can I make this a wow experience?” Because the other way to think about it is that every relationship is with people. When you’re in a service business you’re really in the business of creating memories. You can create good memories or you can create bad memory and it’s much more fun to create good memories.

Bunny: And that just comes from a spirit of generosity. I mean, you obviously want this to be the best real estate experience they’ve ever had.

Craig: Right. Right. I’m very grateful for the people that have helped me along the way. I’ve been very fortunate in my career to always work for people who were concerned about my career development and my personal development and became dear friends. And I’ve had a couple of bosses that have hired me twice in two different jobs. So I’m always grateful for the things that other people have done for me. 

So then I want to pay it forward. When I came to Keller Williams and I was introduced to the team here, there was so much openness and willingness to share and help and support. It has been fantastic. What strikes me the most is how grateful I am for what other people have done for me. And how do I pay that back?

Bunny: I mean, this is not a podcast to plug Keller Williams. It’s really more to talk about mindset, but the place where I learned it was sitting in that training room and learning that my mindset was the secret sauce. I mean, that’s the success piece, right?

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s not just about production and everything. It’s about weight and having a sense of gratitude and contribution and a sense of abundance. And I don’t mean that in a monetary way. It could be abundance in your health or your friends or all of that kind of stuff. And I think back to you. Your experience with cancer was far worse than mine, but I did have prostate cancer about nine years ago. Everyone I worked with during that entire time when I was going for radiation every day for 10 weeks was so supportive. And then on the last day of radiation, there was this very important meeting, and everyone knew it was my last day.My whole team had a celebration for me on my last day. That was turning something that was obviously a challenging situation into something where I knew they really cared about me and supported me.

Bunny: Wow. I’m interested to hear how your mindset was in the middle of that? 

Craig: I’m just by nature, an optimistic person. So even though it was scary, I felt like I was in good hands from a medical standpoint and I just felt like I was gonna beat it. I had done the education that I needed to and then it was really about having a positive mindset. 

This is probably too much information, but I’ll say it anyway. You’re doing the radiation stripped down to your boxer shorts. And so I jokingly put this Facebook thing about the fact that I needed a new pair of boxer shorts for every day. And people started sending me underwear—different pairs of boxer shorts for every day. So while I was sitting there in the big machine, where you’re sort of in there and it’s buzzing and scanning and all that kind of stuff, it got to be kind of a joke with the techs:  “Oh , what’s he going to be wearing today?”

Bunny: I love that.

Craig: That was a way to keep my spirits up. And also during that process, I really learned how to be very focused. I was in a waiting room with people that were going through, frankly, worse things than prostate cancer. Don’t get me wrong, prostate cancer is pretty serious. It is. People die from it. But I was seeing so many other people that were having a much more challenging time than I was. And we became a family. We all bonded together during that process, because we were all waiting, sometimes for an hour. So it’s things like that. And also things like the kitchen angels service, where it helps reboot you every day for how grateful you should be in your own life and grateful for the opportunity to help other people.

Bunny: Right. There are tons of people who do get what a gift it is. People who don’t even have a specific gratitude practice, but at least an attitude every day that you’re going to figure out something. I just wrote a blog post on limiting beliefs and one of the things that I wanted to convey is that we get to choose every single moment how we view the world. And maybe for somebody out there who’s brand new in business or who’s starting a new business. I just read a statistic that said that the entrepreneur demographics are changing. And now like 48% of new entrepreneurs are over 50. So hooray for the old people! 

But I know that there are people out there right now who are thinking, “Well, I’m not any good at marketing. I’m not any good at that piece of it. I can sell stuff, but I’m not good at the marketing stuff.” I’ve got to tell you, I’m married to a guy who doesn’t believe in self promotion because he came from a generation when you played down your assets, instead of being grateful for them and talking about them. So I’d love to hear what you have to say to somebody who has that limiting belief that they can’t market. And they can’t promote themselves.

Craig: You know, we could all market ourselves, and we do it every day in our interactions.  Whether we think of it as marketing or not, we’re marketing ourselves all day long in how we react and treat other people. The thought I had as you were talking about your husband thinking self-promotion sounds like a dirty word is that it doesn’t have to be you talking  about “me, me, me” and “I did this million dollars in revenue.” This is kind of a turnoff in some ways, because you’re talking about yourself. But if you’re talking about how you can help somebody else and how you can provide a good experience for them with your information and knowledge, you’re not talking about yourself in that context. You’re talking about how you can be of service. I think that’s a much easier way for a lot of people from a generation where we weren’t really supposed to be talking about ourselves.

Bunny: Well, it was pre-social media. Our face wasn’t out there. We just weren’t trained to tell people, “Here’s the reason you should hire me instead of the other person.”

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, now we’re all our own brands on social media. But I think that rather than saying to somebody, “Here’s why you should hire me versus somebody else,” you should just talk about how you can be of service in what you do in an authentic way. Then people are more likely to want to work with you, because you’re radiating a sense of positivity and an interest in them. And they’re not thinking that you just look at them as a transaction and then you’re onto the next person.

Bunny: I frequently use with my marketing coaching clients the example of a dinner party. If you went into a dinner party (and this is for people who are just beginning in whatever business they’re in, especially if they’re self-employed), you wouldn’t simply walk in, take your coat off and say, “Hey, I’m selling something, come and talk to me.” Right? I mean, that’s what you don’t want to do with marketing. You want to start by building a relationship. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Craig: I think it goes all the way back to Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. People do like to talk about themselves. And so the first thing is you should be listening. That was one of the first things I learned in marketing client service. You need to ask questions and learn from your clients. Focus on what they need, as opposed to talking about yourself. You really want to establish a dialogue with them about their wants and needs and hopes and fears and everything else. Then you can talk about how you can address them. But nobody wants to go in and all of a sudden have you sit down and say, “Here’s my PowerPoint about me and what I’ve done.” It should be more of establishing, from the very beginning, a relationship of openness with folks. Then, after hearing from them, you can say “Well, here’s how I think I can you and here are some ideas that I have that I could share with you.” So I think a key thing is really listening from the very beginning.

Bunny: I even found that to be helpful when I used to first go on listing appointments. I was so nervous that I would sit down and I would immediately try to book an appointment. You know, if you’re not in real estate, a listing appointment is just like sitting down with a prospective customer. I would be so nervous in the beginning and really coming from a place of scarcity where I thought, “If I don’t get this listing, I’m not sure I can pay the rent next month.” And if you’re coming from a place of scarcity, you’re likely to self-sabotage. But that’s such good advice because things changed when I finally learned how to sit back and listen: “I’m here to help you. Tell me what it is that you need. Talk to me.” It’s so powerful to give a client time to talk to you. And I think people forget to do that, right?

Craig: Yeah. And I think sometimes we do it because we’re afraid. What I’ve learned so much over the years in business working with people is that people are terrified of silence, so they will immediately start talking. If there’s a second of silence, you jump in and start babbling. Lord knows I do it. But if you just let somebody talk and let it sort of sit there for a second and not just try to be filling in all the time. It drives me crazy when people are doing that. It’s much better if you can have the client talk and then ask some more questions and then be warm and reflective about it. Back to the Dale Carnegie thing, I think one of his first points was if you’re at the dinner party, ask people about themselves. Most people do like to talk about themselves. So ask them and don’t just start talking about yourself. 

Bunny: I think that even people who would say, “I don’t like to talk about myself,” really do want somebody to ask them and listen to them.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s not just asking them to go on and on. It’s more meaningful questions about, for example, why they decided to move here. Just those kinds of questions that get them thinking. Growing up in materialistic Dallas, the joke was that the questions at a party were like, “Where do you live? What do you do? What do you drive?” And so it’s not questions like that. It’s asking them more about their life experience,

Bunny: You just brought me to another completely different point, which is for any realtors out there listening: I think it’s really important to convey to your clients how grateful you are for where you live. I mean, if our lifestyle is such a selling point, don’t you think you should share that?

Craig: Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, living in Santa Fe there’s so much beauty. I’m looking out my window right now at the beautiful blue sky. When I leave my house in the morning and I see the mountains, and then when I’m coming home at night and the sun is setting over the mountains and I see all the different colors and everything, it’s just breathtaking. It’s great to live in such a great and wonderful environment and in a place that is very spiritual, going back with the native Americans—respect for the earth and nature and all of those things—I think it does help center us more than a lot of other places.

Bunny: How do you convey that to your clients? I know you’re doing something really cool online that’s different from some other realtors.

Craig: Well, I’m not just posting on my Facebook page,” Hey, I just sold this house or just sold that house.” Well, that’s great. But I’m more talking about new experiences in Santa Fe: new restaurants, or a new place to go hiking, or something exciting that’s happening at one of the museums or things like that—enthusiastically talking about the experience of living in Santa Fe. And if down the road, by the way, you’re looking at this stuff and you decide you want to buy a house here, I would love to help you. But it’s more about conveying the reason why we all want to live here

Bunny: And tell us about your blog, because I think it’s amazing.

Craig: So I created this blog, which is called Santa Fe Scenes. It’s that same kind of thing where it’s just talking about having fun in Santa Fe. One of the things was, you know, we’ve got the old Santa Fe trail and we’ve got the old Pincus trail, but did you know that we had a Margarita trail and a Chocolate trail? Stuff like that. Just being whimsical about it and talking about some of the things are unique about the city and sharing my own passion for Santa Fe. I was very fortunate to be able to do a lot of international travel for my job. I was grateful for the opportunity that I was given to see places that I wouldn’t have seen otherwise from Bogota to Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro and Beijing and places like that. So I’ve always been enthusiastic about travel and now living in such a beautiful place like Santa Fe, I want to share that enthusiasm with people.

Bunny: And you’re getting some good feedback on that I bet, right?

Craig: Yes, I am. I’m getting good feedback on it. It’s been a wonderful thing to reconnect with friends who are saying, “Good for you, you old dog! You’re back out there trying something new.” Because whenever someone says, “Oh, you’re a new realtor,” I say, “Well, I’m an old new realtor. I’m 61 and I’m starting this for the first time.” But it’s been great from that perspective and the support that you get from your friends. Then people are saying, “Oh, well, I know somebody who might be interested in sending you that information.” I think that’s one of the positive things that social media has done where we’ve been able to reconnect with so many people that we might have completely lost touch with.

Bunny: Oh yeah. I did a post not very long ago about how grateful I was, and it was in the middle of all the fear over Facebook and Twitter. And I just said that it’s such a great platform for reconnecting with cousins that I haven’t seen since I was six. I mean, I just turned 60. I’m an old dog and this is a new trick for me, but I think that if you use it the right way, it’s a real gift. I also think there are so many realtors, like you said, who just post either pictures of houses that they have listed or their accomplishments. And I think they’re really missing an opportunity.

Craig: Yeah. Because then you’re just talking at someone. You’re not sharing information and excitement about things with them. People don’t want to look at that stuff. They want to look at things like the fact that there are like six great chocolate tiers in Santa Fe. And then the next time I’m in town, I want to go to each one of them. Or discovering an amazing new hiking trail or a beautiful image of a shop window or a piece of art or something like that. 

Bunny: Yeah, it’s so much better than “I just listed this house at 123 main street. Don’t you wish you owned it?” Exactly.

Craig: Exactly. I think more people would react to it. I’d really like to have some of that green chili chocolate over at The Chocolate Smith or whatever. It’s much more interesting than a picture of a kitchen that has granite countertops. Oh my goodness.

Bunny: And, you know, Craig, I found that people will call me and they’ll say, “Well, I’ve been following you on Facebook for two years. And I feel like you’re my best friend. I think you’d be the right person to show me around and help me find a house.” And I bet that’s happening to you too.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s funny, you mentioned that. One of the people I’ve been mentoring told me a story about how she posted a lovely picture of herself and then somebody called her and said, “I feel like I already know you because you just look like a nice person and I feel like I can trust you.” I think also that it’s our eyes and our smile and everything that conveys so much of what you’re talking about. If you have a spirit of gratitude and service and a sense of abundance, not scarcity, it shows in your face, your eyes, your smile, and your whole persona.

Bunny: Well, we’re going to have to wrap up here in a minute, but I would love to hear if you have just three great tips that you would give to somebody who feels kind of stuck in their marketing. It could be what you’ve learned in 30 years or in the last three days, whatever it is.

Craig: I think one is changing your question from “How do I market myself?” to “What can I do for this client?” or “What can I do that’s going to excite the people? How can I make them feel appreciated and valued?” And this can work in cases where you’re actually working one-on-one with a client or cases where you’re trying to figure out how to promote what you’re doing. How do I find ways to surprise and delight people? So I like to do that with social media buys, where you come up with quirky, little things to talk about that are authentically Santa Fe or a funny picture of my dog or something like that. You want to put a smile on people’s faces. And social media gives us so many opportunities to be able to do that in ways that we couldn’t before. So the main thing at the end of it is to put your client first, and then I think everything else will come from there.

Bunny: You’re absolutely right. I think as long as your passion is helping people, then success is just a natural by-product of that.

Craig: Exactly. People feel that energy and then they want to tell their friends about you.

Bunny: What I’ve found is that people want to be able to trust somebody, especially in this business where they’re making possibly the biggest purchase of their life.

Craig: Right? I’m thinking back to these younger clients. We were touring houses, and they were interested in one particular house and I was like, “No, I’m not going to let you buy this. This is not the right move.” And I think all of a sudden they’re like, “Wow, he really cares. He’s not just thinking ‘Tick tock, tick tock. We’ve seen three houses.’” This is not House Hunters International where there are the three properties and you have to buy one. So again, it’s not a transaction. It’s a journey. It’s a relationship.

Bunny: I think that’s the most important tip for somebody to take away. Whether you’re selling widgets or earrings or house cars or houses, this is not a transaction. It’s a relationship. We want people to trust you and come back over and over. I don’t know how you can love your job if you’re not doing it the way we’re doing it.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. And have fun with it. We get to meet interesting people all day long. We get to see things. We get to use our own creativity to express ourselves. I know there are people that are in jobs that don’t have that. But I also read things about  the janitor in an elementary school who takes real pride in what they do, and they are going to do the best job that they possibly can. So I think in almost everything, you can come at it with a mindset of “How can I make this a great experience for me and for others?”

Bunny: That’s great stuff. Tell us where people can find you and where they can find your blog.

Craig: Well, probably the most fun thing I’m doing is the Santa Fe Scenes blog. 

Bunny: Okay. And we’ll share that on the information page for the podcast. And then, of course, if people want to buy a house from you, they can find you through there?

Craig: Yeah. All my information is on there. So one stop shop.

Bunny: Craig, I’m so excited that you were here. This was fun. I think we could do it again.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Bunny: Because I think this is the place where people get stuck. People who are self-employed get stuck in this part. And so I think there’s a lot of stuff that we can talk about.  But I’m of course really grateful that you agreed to talk with us.

Craig: Oh, thanks. It’s been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. 

Bunny: And to everybody else, thanks for being here. This is once again, the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry. You are welcome to go to my website if you’d like to learn more about me and about buying my book, which is all about gratitude and how gratitude helped me kick stage four cancer’s ass. And we’d love to have you follow us and subscribe on spot Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks so much, Craig.

Craig: Thank you. Next time.