Bunny : (00:09)
Welcome to the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. Today we have one of the most incredible stories that I’ve heard. As we were talking to our guest, I think that Johanna and I both were thinking, this should be a movie. It should be a screenplay. It was crazy. Wasn’t it? Joanna?

Johanna: (00:26)
Yeah. As soon as she started talking, I was thinking, oh, this is like a Nicholas Sparks movie or, you know, something, it’s definitely a movie. Such an interesting story. Of course, very sad. I know we were both holding back tears and you know, our listeners, may wanna have the Kleenex handy for this one, but so inspiring, such a beautiful story. I love talking to our guests today.

Bunny : (00:52)
And I don’t wanna give anything away because I want everybody to listen, but I will tell you that it is a story that while it’s incredibly sad, it’s also real inspiring and uplifting. And, wow. There’s not much else to say about it except listen in,, keep coming back. We appreciate everybody who listens, who subscribes, who reviews us.

Johanna: (01:17)
Yeah. And, and again, make sure to check the links in our description and on the website, our guest today, Emily Johnson is gonna be having a special on her book this week in in honor of her mom. So, when you listen to the podcast, you’ll kind of understand more about why that is, but, yeah, definitely check out what Emily is doing. She is somebody to, to be watching for.

Bunny : (01:43)
Sure. So listen in, don’t miss it.

Bunny : (01:46)
Our guest today on the podcast is Emily Johnson and Emily has a fascinating story because a lot of us come to a writing career, in a pretty direct way. I mean, you know, we think we wanna be a writer for a long, long time and we practice and practice and this, and then finally get brave enough to share the story that we’ve created, but she has written, co-written a book, her first book called bird of paradise. And rather than me telling your story, think it’d be a treat for our listeners to hear what the process was that got you to this book.

Emily : (02:24)
Sure. Well it kind of all started way back when I was 13. I’m not gonna tell you how long ago that was. It was a while. And we had just moved to North Carolina from Colorado when my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer. Um, and it was, it was a shock. I still remember what I was wearing that day. And it’s, it’s the day where you find out your parents are not invincible. And she had caught it very early through a self exam. And it was, they removed the tumor. She did radiation, we went on, she went on her way. And then when I was 15, after a number of scans, we found out that she had advanced stage ovarian cancer and, you know, statistically that is not something very many people survive. It was very, very advanced. And so at that time she began writing a book. She spent hours out in her summer house and in her office just typing away and researching. And I often asked her what she was writing. And she said that someday I’d know what it was. So she was kind of cryptic about it. The doctors had given her, you know, at the most, a few years to live and she did not accept that. She just said, I’m, I’m not going, cancer is not gonna beat me. I am going to be here to see you graduate. I’m gonna be here to see you walk down the aisle. And this is just not how it’s going to end. She used some, some language, I can’t repeat on a podcast, but she was, she was a strong, strong woman. And, so she found some doctors that were willing not to look at her as a statistic, but look at her as an individual. And, you know, she, she battled eight different recurrences, many surgeries, many, many setbacks. Cancer always seemed to hit right around my final exams in high school and college. So we would often, she was an educator. She was an elementary school teacher. She’s actually my teacher in second and third grade. She would often be found in the hospital bed shortly after surgery with my textbooks and my notes as I paced back and forth in front of the hospital bed, as she quizzed me, because her cancer was no excuse not to Excel. She never used cancer as an excuse to not strive in her own life. And she was not gonna anybody use it as an excuse not to achieve and, and basically live their life. And so, you know, we dealt with it every single time it came, my mom was amazing and she said, I’m not gonna worry about it until there’s a reason to worry.

Emily : (04:55)
So I had a fairly normal childhood. She was there to see me graduate from UNC chapel hill. She was there to see me walk down the aisle. And her two doctors were there as well. So that was really kind of special for the whole family. And then in 2012 out of the blue, she wasn’t feeling very good. And my dad called and he said, I think you need to get down here. They live about an hour and a half south of me. And we took her to the hospital. And about a week later, she was on life support. And it wasn’t actually cancer. It was the years and years of chemotherapy and treatment trials and stuff that her body finally just gave up. And so she passed away the day after Christmas which was just, you know, not that it any time is a good time for it to happen, but the day after Christmas was really hard. But she did it on her own terms. My dad and I never had to sign the paperwork to take her off life support. We were getting ready to, and she just decided to go on her own. And she was like that. She was, she never did anything unintentionally. And so about two weeks after she passed away, I found a letter from her with a very long letter, but part of it contained her manuscript that was unfinished and a request that I finished the story for her. So I mean, as you can imagine I was amazed. I was tearful. I was happy. I was every emotion you can possibly think of down to anger that she didn’t get to finish it herself. And so I read it and reread it several times and then I decided to try and finish. So I spent time trying to come up with a story, getting to know her characters. I was very adamant that this continued to be her story and not my story. And it took me eight years to finish it, but finally, I just happened to be in the right place at the right time, a publisher read it, and wanted to publish it. And it was released in March 29th, 2021, which would’ve been her 71st birthday.

Johanna: (07:04)
Wow.

Bunny : (07:04)
Wow.

Johanna: (07:06)
That Is such an amazing story.

Emily : (07:09)
So it was, it’s a gift that will forever give.

Bunny : (07:13)
Well, and Emily, I have to tell you that I read the reviews and people’s say, you know, that they loved it. You know, it’s a romance of sorts, you know, it’s a life story, but a romance too. And they said the transition is seamless. Like they kept trying to figure out where your mom’s words ended and yours began and they said they can’t do it. That’s no way to tell. So you obviously did a really good job.

Emily : (07:43)
It was interesting. My publisher doesn’t even know where the black and white line was.

Bunny : (07:49)
Wow.

Emily : (07:51)
So, she’s never, they’ve never figured it out and, you know, but that was done by design. I mean, obviously I didn’t want it to come off as two separate stories. So first there was just trying to figure out how to continue the storyline on with these characters, cuz she had created all, but one character, all I knew was the name of this character and who that character was supposed to be in relation to the story. So I had a pretty good foundation to work off of. But her writing styles, very poetic, very detailed I’m in marketing and advertising. So my writing style is very black and white, very short get to the facts and get away. So, that may have been why it took me so long to complete it because I really had to try and change my natural inclination towards brevity to match her, her style. And then I came up with this kind of this overall story arc theme that I then had to go back and make sure her part of the book made sense when I went in that direction. So I had to add events here and there. I had to add conversations that were referenced back to, but everything I added in there a lot was taken from my mother and from personal conversations I’d had with her. So I feel like it was still her voice talking through it.

Johanna: (09:08)
Yeah. I mean what a legacy to even, I mean, what a labor of love for you, I can’t even imagine is, but actually if you’re not, you know, you’re not coming from the writing world yourself or, you know, not something you’re used to. That’s incredible.

Emily : (09:23)
It was, it was incredible. And a lot of, I mean it is a fictional story. But so much of it is my mother and her words and experiences she had and things it, she wanted to pass on to me without knowing if she’d be there to pass them on. So there’s a lot, the dynamic between the main character and her mother is very, um, very similar to my relationship with my mom and very similar to things my mom wanted to tell me and kind of the wisdom that she wanted to pass on. You know, this is very, it’s very coming of age, family saga romance. It kind of grows with the main character over a period of 10 years. Um, and so that was really special because there’s a lot of little things in Easter eggs, really of my mom and my family in there that I just, I loved discovering.

Bunny : (10:12)
I thought a lot about Johanna, well, while I was reading this because for the people who are listening, who don’t know it, Johanna who’s my assistant co-producer is my daughter. And she also lived with me and was my caretaker when I had stage four cancer. And I thought, so your experience is obviously your mom was sick for a longer period of time, but it sounds like she was one of the most positive people in the world.

Emily : (10:42)
She was, and she, you know, she had this thing, she said, I’m not gonna be, you know, perky, Peggy what she referred to it as. She’s like a lot of her nurses were perky Peggy. She didn’t like that, but she never really looked at it as this is an obstacle that I can’t overcome. This is an opportunity to live. And she lived every day to the fullest. She, you know, she was very much, and this plays very largely into the book, you know, she always said you can’t control what happens in life, but you can’t control how you respond to it. And so she wasn’t, you know, she, she couldn’t help the fact that she got cancer. She had the BRACA gene, she was almost guaranteed to get breast and ovarian cancer. There was no way around it really. And, so she said, you know, I can’t control that. That’s genetics. It’s not fair. It’s not right. But what am I gonna do? I’m not gonna sit here and waste what little time I do have and regret in the end. So she just, you know, she really went on with things. I think a lot of this book was, was her, her trying to put her life into words and leave behind so that her legacy would continue on. But I mean, I, you know, there was never those moments. She never created that moment where I’d feel guilty for fighting with her as a teenager because that’s what teenagers do. And she wanted me to be as normal as possible, but we took incredible family trips. We were very close. I’m an only child. So that really, you know, in a sense, I’m never gonna, I’m not happy it happened, but looking back on it, I think it made us such a strong, close family that my parents were my best friends, you know, and I don’t think too many people can say that I spent my 21st birthday in new Orleans with my parents. So, you know, and so I’ve gotten to that point 10 years out now from when she passed away, where I can start looking at at the things that came out of it that wouldn’t have been there otherwise, um, her legacy, you know, just in health, I am very, very on top of my health. You know, I, I went and got tested for the BRACA gene. I don’t have it, you know, thank the Lord. I’m very, very happy about that, but you know, it doesn’t mean that I’m not high risk. So I am on top of all of my exams and all of my tests. And I, I watch things very closely listen to my body. And if it wasn’t for her experience, I don’t know if I’d be like that, you know? And it’s it’s so I try and grab those positive things that came out of it because it was a horrible situation and you know, why let cancer win in the end? You know, it’s not gonna beat us down. It, it didn’t beat her down, you know, mentally at all. And you know, I’m not gonna let it, um, be this negative black mark on my life.

Bunny : (13:30)
Well, and how does that work now? I mean, you, I mean, it’s, she, part of the legacy she left was this book, but the other legacy she left was this, incredibly positive without being perky, Peggy, this positive outlook. How does that work for you? I mean, you’re a parent now, right?

Emily : (13:52)
Yeah. I mean, it’s funny because I have more of my dad’s personality. I’m very type A, I have a lot of stress and anxiety. So I really, I have that kind of moments where I get to this point and I realize, oh, I’m starting to go off the deep end on this one. What would mom do? And I try and and think what she would do in this situation and talk my way back from having a panic attack. You know, but there’s still those moments as a mother, you know, I have one, one child he’s seven now, but I still don’t know what I’m doing as a parent. And there is those moments where he coughs or sneezes or particularly right now with everything that’s going on. And all I wanna do is call my mom and be like, do I need to take him to the hospital? Is he gonna be okay? And, I don’t have her to do that. So I really try and keep my experiences personally with her as a daughter, I try and think about what would she do in this moment. And so that’s how I kind of combine her calm, demeanor, and positive demeanor with my tendency to go to the worst possible place first and then work my way back. I’m a work in progress, but having that guiding force and having that, that thing that I can try and you know, try and, and be like, um, helps quite a bit to get through, you know, life in general.

Johanna: (15:18)
Yeah. I mean your, your story and, um, just the situation, how it’s kind of shaped your reminds me and I’m sure Bunny too, of a lot of our guests and even Bunny herself, that course, we all wish that, that these terrible things would’ve happened or that your mom would never have gotten sick or really, you know, that there was no cancer at all, but that the parts of it, you know, if that hadn’t happened to you might not be the person you are today. I mean, do you, do you feel that way?

Emily : (15:48)
I definitely do. I mean, it’s, you know, my mom would not want, want to waste her experience because what was the purpose of it? You know, it has to have something positive that comes out of it. And I, you know, one of the things that has just shocked me with this book is, you know, not only has the reception to the book itself been overwhelming, but the people that have reached out who have had similar experiences with their parents or people that have just been diagnosed with cancer has been incredible. And I’ve been on a lot of podcasts where I’ve been talking more about the inspirational story of her versus this book, which is her legacy living on. If I can share a little of my experience, if I can come from 10 years out from having lost someone, because I’ve been through it, you know, the grieving process is so different for everybody. You know, some people go through what they say “the steps” and they go through it quickly. Other people don’t hit certain steps or they’re still grieving, or they’re not grieving very long into it. And they feel like they’ve done something wrong. There’s not, there’s, there’s only, the only way to grieve is the way that you feel you need to grieve. Or even if someone hasn’t passed away the way you feel, you need to deal with something. My mom, you know, she’s, she was very big on, Hey, you know, Emily, you can have bad days. You can think the world is ending because, so, and so said something to you or your boyfriend broke up with you or, or something like that. That’s fine. You know, I want you, you know, to have these feelings and things, I don’t want you to feel like, oh, well, you can’t have a typical, normal bad day just because I have cancer. You know, and that was, and I’m trying to kind of look at that, let myself, I’ve learned that it’s okay to let myself be, you know, me to feel things I don’t have to feel guilty for not being perfect. You know, and I think, I think going through this experience and being 10 years out from it is just incredible what I’m able to do now. Cause not that long ago, I couldn’t have had these kinds of conversations. I just wasn’t ready to, but if I can, if I can help somebody through it, if I can make someone feel better, then my mom’s legacy’s living on. Yeah.

Johanna: (18:04)
Yeah. That’s amazing.

Bunny : (18:06)
I think it’s fascinating. I was just thinking about you know, we’ve had a guest before who lost a child. We had a guest who’s in the final stages of stage four cancer. And it’s like Johanna said, it’s not, it’s not that you’re grateful that those things occurred, but you’re really grateful for the changes that they created for the person that they created. And I’m also grateful for my cancer experience because it, I never would probably, I never would’ve written a book before and I also wouldn’t have, you know, I would’ve thought at the time that I had to write, I had to write a best seller. I had to write something that would touch everybody in the world in some way. And, and when it finally got to the point of writing the book, I just thought if one person, you know, you, it, it it’s like your mom said she wouldn’t have want, she wouldn’t have wanted there to have been some, some purpose, there that she needed to make some sense. She was hoping to make some sense of her disease. And I, and it seems that this, this sort of an experience really sort of refines you it’s sort of like walking through fire and it helps you have greater focus on what it is that you want life to look like. And you want your legacy to be, I mean, I didn’t, my book didn’t have to affect millions of people. It just had to help one person. And it sounds like that’s what she was thinking as well, not just with her book, but with her life.

Emily : (19:44)
I think so, too. And I mean, with the book, it was originally from the little bit of notes she left, it was originally titled letters to my daughter. And with that, you know, that’s where, I really believe that this was, you know, I don’t know if she intended to publish it. I think she would’ve loved to have seen it published, but it really was, you know, was a way to leave her words to me and to leave this legacy and, you know, and I think she, she never did anything unintentionally. So I think she stopped writing at a particular point, not because she had to, but because she wanted to knowing that I would need this to make it through her loss. She knew she was gonna pass away. I mean, there was no doubt about it. She knew she was keeping things to herself until she knew all the facts, because she did not want to, you know, destroy family, you know, events and family vacations when there was something to worry about, but it turned out not to be worrisome. She didn’t want the unnecessary worry for her family and the amount of the amount she shouldered was incredible. Looking back on it. But I think, I think she intended me to finish this all along, because she knew that at the point in the story and where things were going, I was going to need her words and I was going to be able to work through my words and my feelings to complete the book. And that was a gift beyond, I mean, I got a good eight years of feeling like I was having a conversation with her because so much of the book is conversational and so much that is directed toward me, you know that not that anyone would know that if they didn’t know the back story, but I got to continue this conversation, which is a gift. And when I wrote the end, it was very hard for me. It wasn’t necessarily a moment to celebrate for me. I went over and over and over, again on this simply because I think I was afraid to say goodbye. You know, and then when it got published, all of a sudden I get to continue this conversation, you know. I didn’t intend to publish it ever. And now I get to continue talking to her through marketing of the book and telling people her story.

Johanna: (21:59)
Yeah. Wow. That’s what I was gonna say. It sounds like you were able to, it was almost like you could continue being with her and talking to her through writing. And, did you, during the process of writing, like catch yourself, having conversations with her, asking her things about the characters?

Emily : (22:20)
I did, I often did, you know, and it was often a, you know, kind of, would she like it if I took it this way or did I, this scene a little too far for her, um, you know, one of the original drafts of this, which is so far from what it turned out to be, I had my dad read and he just kind of wrote, wow, you know, this is my daughter writing this. I don’t know what to say. And so, you know, we scaled back things was quite a bit from there, but it made me realize all of a sudden, you know what, my mom wouldn’t have wanted me to go in this, this, I started writing for a particular audience, not for me and my mother. And that’s where the turning point for me on writing. It was because then I started writing from myself personally. And there’s a lot of me in the parts that I finished. You know, there’s a lot of places that this book goes that were places and experiences I had and shared with my family. And so, you know, there’s been, I can’t give too much away. It’s gonna give away quite a Bit of it.

Johanna: (23:25)
No we don’t want you to spoil it.

Emily : (23:27)
Anyone that reads it. Just a little tidbit. I studied geology in college, not as a major, I was a journalism major, but we had to have a concentration of study outside of the journalism school. And I chose archeology and anyone that hears that and then reads the book, it’s gonna realize how that all came about in the book. But, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s just, I don’t know. It’s been crazy. It’s just insane.

Bunny : (23:53)
So, Emily, I mean, what would it have been like if you hadn’t had the book? I mean, I’m just wondering how it changed, your, um, grieving process and your personal growth to have this. I mean, it really was an ongoing relationship with your mom after you lost her, right?

Emily : (24:16)
Yeah. I mean, it’s, and it’s hard to know exactly what would’ve happened. You know, I found this at the moment where we’d taken care of all the bank accounts, notified people, you know, and that’s, that’s almost a blessing for the first few weeks, because you’re not focused on the loss. You’re focused on the business. And I found the letter not long after, you know, the casseroles stopped. People went back to their lives, the families were gone and all of a sudden you’re left there with this noticeable hole, you know, that’s just not, you cannot fill it. And so, you know, I think, I think there’s one specific part in the book where I suddenly was able to release the guilt. I felt, you know, somebody you love passes away. And I instantly went to the, oh my gosh, I remember this fight I had with her when I was a freshman in high school or something. You know, you know, where I was busy with something. I said, no, mom, I can’t get together today. Or, you know, there’s all these itty bitty little moments that I, that time don’t matter until someone’s gone. And you feel like, you know, you just, the guilt of it is horrible. And I think that’s the most dangerous and awful part of losing someone is the guilt. Because the person that you lost knows that you love them and they don’t feel anything about it, but it’s a very dangerous place to go because you can go to very dark places. Guilt can take you very, very far down a rabbit hole. You don’t wanna go. And there’s a particular part in this book where I was able to write and I was able to release the guilt. And for me, that was one of the most valuable parts of it because I wasn’t capable of overcoming that part. I went and sought, you know, a grief counselor. I mean, it was very difficult. My mom was my best friend, you know, I was 30 when she passed away. So I guess I just let out my age but oh, you know, and it doesn’t matter how old you are, you still need your mother. And, and so I think for me, this was, this was my way of going through therapy. I don’t know if I would’ve been able to make it through that process. Looking back on it, I think I made it through fairly successfully. There’s still moments where outta the blue I’ll fall apart and just start crying or I’ll pick up the phone to be, you know, Hey mom, guess what happened? But, I think it just gave me a way to focus, not on the bad to focus on the good, I wasn’t remembering the last few days with her. I wasn’t remembering the cancer. I was remembering all these conversations and things that I had done with her that got woven into the book. And so I don’t know what would’ve happened if I hadn’t had it, but I know that particularly with that feeling of guilt, it was absolutely necessary for me to have this. And I think she knew that.

Johanna: (27:03)
Yeah, it’s, it’s, it sounds like, you know, it was such a huge part of your grieving process, as well as, I mean, grief never really ends. I think, you know, you’re talking about how it doesn’t matter how many years or, or when you lose someone how ago it’s been, um, it’s, it’s not ever, I think people, whether you’ve lost someone or not, you can kind of get trapped in this mindset that, right. Yeah. I, like you said, I have to go through the steps and then, you know, I’ll feel better. And, you know, from day to day, maybe one day you do feel okay, and then the next day I can hit you like a ton of bricks. And that can be that for the, you know, 20 years down the road, or really forever, that person, you know, was part of your life. And that’s just really never gonna stop. It’s not. I guess, like, what I’m trying to say is, you know, grief just doesn’t stop. And I think people might not really realize that, and it’s not a bad thing. It’s not a bad thing. Continue to remember that person and kind of have that, that ache for them. You’re, you’re gonna have things that come up that will always remind you of them. And in some ways, like that’s beautiful that you’ll never forget them and they’ll never not be in your life. So I think, I think, um, I hope when people read your book, that they can get a sense of story too, because again, like you said, that that helps her kind of live on for all the readers too.

Emily : (28:30)
Yeah. And I hope so. And I mean, that’s kind of also having, this is my legacy. I’ve just left for my son too.

Johanna: (28:36)
Yeah.

Emily : (28:37)
I mean, he’s seven, but he has been so proud of it and even did an art project, he drew the cover of it. So, I mean, just been, um, you know, so I get, I get that ability to leave a part of me forever for him as well. I mean, I, I don’t intend to go in anywhere anytime soon, but, it’s good knowing that. He’s also gonna be able to know his grandmother through this. I mean, there is this part of, this is a blueprint for raising a child because their conversations she had with me that at some point I’m gonna wanna have with him and, you know, I will never, I’ll never be the mother. My mother was. And I don’t know if a lot of people think that or if that just is, but if I could be half the mom, she was to me, then I feel like I’ve been successful. And this book is a great reminder of the things that she said and the event just her, her personality really to help guide me through, you know, the rest of life really.

Bunny : (29:33)
I mean, it’s just such a cool story. I feel like it’s a screenplay.

Johanna: (29:38)
That’s what I was thinking like this would make such a good movie, your whole story, you and your mom and in the book.

Bunny : (29:44)
And, it’s such a unique way to, I mean, you know, when I was, when I was reading about the book, I just was assuming that she had started it and then didn’t get to finish it because she passed away. But what I’m hearing you say is that you feel like this was very intentional, she created this vehicle to help you with your healing process. And, so that makes it just that much more interesting that she was so intentional.

Emily : (30:19)
Yeah. And I’m completely convinced because I think she would’ve, knowing her and the way she planned, she would’ve had notes about where this story was going to end and what was going to happen. And she would’ve had more of it flushed out. She, you know, I don’t remember her writing very much in the final few years. And granted part of that was her planning, helping me plan my wedding. She passed away a year and a half after I got married. So, you know, but I think she could have gone further. She could have left those notes and she didn’t. And that’s why just from knowing her, knowing how she did things, knowing that, you know, she always told me, I’ll let you make mistakes, unless it’s one that you, you can’t take back, but she, but in the end she was always guiding me. She always knew exactly what was going on. And it was, I couldn’t get away with anything as a high schooler, but she was always there in the background doing things that she knew would help make me stronger and helped me learn. And so that’s, you know, really why I think she stopped and let me finish this, cuz she knew it was completely intentional that she did it for me.

Bunny : (31:28)
It is. And, what now, Emily? I mean, now that you’ve had this experience, are you interested in doing, writing another book or are you like I’m never, no, that was so hard. It was like the hardest eight years of my life. What, what are your plans now? What do you now?

Emily : (31:43)
Well, I mean, I do have an idea for another book and it’s actually one related to this and it’s writing the story of the parents because there is a lot of little clues here and there and instances, um, that would give me enough basis to be able to write that story. The book, this book’s starts in 1967 when my mom was a 17 year old living in San Francisco, which is where the main character is at the very beginning of the book. So to write the story of the parents, I’d have to go back further. Um, the parents meet at UC Berkeley. I know that my parents met at UC Berkeley in the same manner. So there’s a lot to go off of. I’ve tried, I have written in the opening paragraph. I don’t know how many times, um, you know, but I do, I have a seven year old, I have a business that, you know, I’m part of and well that I run. So it’s a matter of finding time to be able to do it. I’d love to do it again. A lot of my time is actually spent marketing this book right now, which given that I do marketing advertising professionally is a lot harder than you would think.

Johanna: (32:50)
Yeah. Well, I hope you do. I hope you write another one and, we know it takes time, but maybe eventually.

Emily : (32:58)
Eventually one day.

Johanna: (32:59)
It’d be fun to explore that time period too. Probably.

Emily : (33:05)
Yes, no. And I think it will, and I’ve already started doing some research, so we’ll see no promises, but I’m gonna try.

Bunny : (33:11)
Well, and is it okay if I say, just had somebody ask me recently. They said, oh, I just can’t that first part. I keep trying to write the beginning, trying to write the beginning. And I said, Hey, write the middle, you know, just, yeah. You know, let that, there’s, there’s this, and I know it because the beginning of my book is different. You know, it was like 50 drafts later, but I just, so somebody said that to me, at one point, they said, don’t worry, go, go in and find where the middle is and then build around it. So, that might be fun just to try.

Emily : (33:50)
Well, it’s funny that you said that, because I wrote the end of the book before I wrote anything else. The last chunk of the book, the last, I don’t know how many pages it turned out to be when it was formatted, but the last bit of the book was the first thing I wrote and I had no problem writing it. I knew, I don’t know if it was intervention, divine intervention from my mother or what, but I knew exactly where to take the story right away. And then I just had to backtrack my way from there. And so I, you know, I aware this new story’s gonna end, it’s gonna end with the beginning of the book. So, or the current book. So, I mean I have been thinking about doing that. I have to get something from, from here out, even if, like you said, it’s the middle of the book.

Bunny : (34:39)
Well, the cool thing is that it sounds like you might be able to have more conversations with her as you’re writing.

Emily : (34:47)
Yeah. And that’s, you know, part of it’s kind of fun because I know that the parents’ story in this is partially based on my parents. So it kind of opens up the ability for me to have that conversation with my dad and, you know, get his, his memories and his feelings and thoughts from when he met my mom and they were a young couple and that beginning their lives together. And so, you know, I think, I don’t know if that was a gift from my mom, continuing that now I get to have something in a, in writing that’s me and my dad. So it won’t be, as long as this book, I can guarantee you, I don’t have 570 pages in me, so we may be more Novella length, but.

Johanna: (35:35)
Well, I hope everybody gets inspired to get a copy of it. And after hearing this, I am. I read a lot about it, but I haven’t read it yet. So now I’m like, I’m gonna go read it right now.

Bunny : (35:47)
Thank you. I’m really excited. And because a woman said, I couldn’t even get through the dedication without crying. So I read the dedication and, I couldn’t get through the dedication without crying either.

Emily : (36:01)
That dedication is the letter. That’s part. That’s the way the letter that she left.

Johanna: (36:05)
Oh, wow!

Bunny : (36:07)
Oh, it gives me a chills. I believe it makes me wanna cry Now.

Emily : (36:10)
Her letter appears in several different places. It’s also, I just took parts and pieces of her letter, but that dedication is a big chunk of the actual letter she wrote.

Bunny : (36:22)
Emily, I’m so grateful that you spent time talking to us because it’s so inspiring and it makes me wanna start another book. Maybe I’ll leave it for you to finish/

Johanna: (36:38)
Well, I’m excited to see how things go and hear what you’re up to next. We’ll definitely be following you/

Emily : (36:44)
Oh, well, thank you so much.

Bunny : (36:46)
Yeah. And we’ll talk again soon.

Emily : (36:49)
Thank you. Sounds great. All right, bye.

Bunny : (36:53)
That’s all we’ve got today. Friends. I wanna thank you for joining the lifesaving gratitude podcast with your host. Bunny Terry that’s me and my producer and assistant Johanna Medina. We feel like we’re in the business of sharing the stories that save us, and we hope you’ll share as well by letting your friends and family know about the podcast follow and like us wherever you listen. And please take the time to leave a review. Whether it’s a comment or a suggestion, we are open to suggestions all the time. Also follow us on Instagram at live saving gratitude pod. You can also follow me personally at Bunny Terry, Santa Fe. You can sign up my website at bunnyterry.com to receive weekly emails about how to become the ultimate gratitude nerd. Thanks so much for checking in.

Bunny: Hi everyone. This is Bunny with the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. Just in case you don’t know me, I am a stage four colon cancer survivor and the author of Lifesaving Gratitude, which is a book about how gratitude helped me kick cancer’s ass. 

Today we’re going to talk to a special guest about how marketing and marketers can use gratitude to create business and connections with clients and also for themselves to create a really positive way to do their job. But first, I just want to thank you for being here and ask that you download the podcast if you’d like. And certainly subscribe wherever you listen to other podcasts. But enough about me and enough about the podcast. 

I want to introduce you to my special guest, who’s also a friend. Craig Cunningham is currently a realtor with Keller Williams, Santa Fe. And that’s how I met him. However, this is a recent career for him and he was, and correct me if I mispronounce the word, but you were a hotelier. Is that the way to say that?

Craig: Yes. 

Bunny: Yes. He’s spent 30 years in corporate sales and marketing. He’s traveled extensively. I’m going to let him tell you all the places that he’s been to, but he is the founder and principal of Cunningham + Colleagues marketing consultants. He was in the past the VP of marketing and quality for Seaport Hotels and World Centers and the VP of marketing for Core North America. So welcome Craig Cunningham.

Craig: Thanks so much for having me on your podcast.

Bunny: I’m excited. I know you have some great tips for all of our listeners. When I think about these podcasts, I always think about the people that are going to want the information we’re offering. I mean, we’re here to help people and we’re here to figure out how gratitude can make everyone’s life not just easier and simpler, but also fuller. So why don’t you start, Greg? Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us how in the world you ended up in this completely different career? And yet the truth is we’re still just marketers first and realtors, second. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell our listeners.

Craig: Yeah. So, as you said, I’ve been in marketing and sales for more than 30 years. I actually started off with an advertising and PR agency and then had the good fortune to be hired by my hotel client at the time, Wyndham hotels. At that time it was a North American chain and it’s now international. 

But from then on, I was in the hotel business. It’s definitely a career where if you are not focused on client service and the whole concept of gratitude, you’re not going to be successful. I always thought of our job as just surprising and delighting our guests and making them feel like they chose the right hotel to be with. And so it was always about waking up every day and saying, “What can I do to make somebody’s day and to give them a great experience?” And, of course, to do this you have to be grateful because they opted to choose your hotel over the million other choices that they had. 

So when I retired from the hotel business two years ago, I was trying to figure out what else I wanted to do with my life. I started doing more volunteering. I volunteer with Kitchen Angels here in Santa Fe to deliver meals to people who are not able to leave their homes. But I also started thinking of whether I wanted to do something else from a professional standpoint and the real estate business seemed like a natural extension, because it’s all about client service. You have to figure out ways to make people feel like they’ve made the right choice in working with you. So it’s all about being grateful every day and figuring out what can I do to help them today. How else can I extend what I’m doing for them in a way that they will appreciate and know that I appreciate them. So that’s what it’s really all about, because of course they could work with a million other other people

Bunny: Right. And let’s talk for just a second. Don’t you think that marketing has changed over the 30 years that you’ve been doing this? I mean, it seems to me that when we were kids, which was back before the crust cooled, we were sort of marketed at. Just talk for a minute about how marketing is different now than it was 10 years ago or 30 years ago.

Craig: It’s funny, because I was going to say the exact same thing. Back in the day, you were running a TV ad or a radio spot or a print ad and it was passive in that you just presented the information, unless you were direct sales. But really with the advent of so much digital media, you are instantly able to forge a relationship with customers through social media, through Facebook, Instagram, where you’re having a dialogue with them from the very beginning. This allows you to work in a much more personal way and to be able to find out much more quickly how you can serve those people. 

So I think it’s changed completely. Before you just sort of put it out there into the ether and hope that something worked, and now you’re able to engage. And I’ve found that so much in real estate where I’m getting emails from folks and then it evolves from the email into a phone call or a zoom call or something like that instantly. I think that’s so much better for both people. Especially for somebody like me who wants to find ways to engage with people and to be of service to them, it makes it a lot easier and more rewarding.

Bunny: I just think about the ways that I connect with my clients. It’s as if you’re somehow conveying to those people that you’re grateful that they showed up.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, my whole thought is that it’s not a transaction, it’s a relationship. And that relationship can be multifaceted. Once you’ve sold them a house or sold their house, I like to think that we’ve formed a friendship and a bond and that relationship is going to continue. And honestly, I don’t even care if I ever get another piece of business for them. Now think of them as friends. I want to have them to my house for dinner or go have coffee or something like that. 

I think that kind of thing that makes a difference for people in wanting to work with me.  It’s coming from a position of wanting to be of service to them and wanting to make them happy and finding the right solution for them. I’m working with some first-time-buyers right now and I kind of feel like they’re my kids. It’s about, okay, how can I really help them with this? And they’re grateful for the counsel I’m able to give to them, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to work with them. So it’s very rewarding. I think if you approach business relationships in the same way as you would with your friends, it’s a win-win situation for everybody.

Bunny: Well, talking about those first-time home buyers, I mean, that’s one of my favorite deals. You never make the most money from those transactions, but I’m so grateful to be reminded that we are providing the American dream when we’re selling real estate. Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s my favorite experience.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, for somebody to have their first home and to be excited about how they’re going to decorate it and what they’re going to do. And with this young couple, seeing them excited when they see a house brings out all my empathy and makes me want to really go the extra mile for them to make sure they find the right house at the right price for them. And then I just never want to stop. So then it’s like, “Okay, now I’m going to find this person for you to do the plumbing, and I’m going to find this person, etc, and I’ll be with you with you  to help explain things.” I just want to really continue to be of service.

Bunny: I talk a lot, especially on my blog, about Judy Camp, who was one of my first real estate mentors. She was a great friend and Linda Gammons partner for a long time before she passed away. But Judy Camp always says, “If you come from contribution, you can’t help but be successful.”

Craig: Yeah. I mean, just as I was saying, you can’t think of it as a transaction. I think, coming from contribution, how can I help you? How can I make this a better experience? How can I make this work? Because, especially in a real estate transaction, it can be stressful. It’s the biggest financial transaction for the majority of us. So how do you take the burden and the pressure away from them and sort of guide them through the process? I just think the main thing is that it’s much more fun, whether you’re doing volunteer work or in business, to wake up every day and figure out how I could make it fun for somebody else. Because then it’s fun for you and it gets you excited and passionate about what you’re doing.

Bunny: Well, it sounds like our big “why’s” are really similar. I certainly don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but it sounds like your big “why” is just to make the life of the people you come in contact with better.

Craig: Yeah. Of course making money is nice, but there are lots of ways to make money. It’s more about whether you are getting energy from it. And I think you really get energy when you’re working with someone and trying to figure out how you can help them, how you can make their day better, how you can make the service that you’re providing better. And also just doing things that saying, “What about if I do X, Y, Z?” and they’re  like, “Oh, you’ll do that for me?” And I’m like, “Of course.”

I have another set of clients where the transaction was fairly complicated and we were looking at lots of properties. Coming from a corporate background, I love to do spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations—things like that. And so after about the third thing we had to do, they’re like, “Oh, how are we going to organize all these bids?”  And then one of the guys said to the other guy, “Well, Craig’s going to do a spreadsheet for us. He’s probably already got it done.” So it’s that kind of thing where you’re looking for ways to make their experience better.

Bunny: So this is always a funny question for me to ask, because I have such a loose gratitude practice other than just waking up in the morning and saying, “thank you, thank you, thank you,” and then writing things down, but do you have a practice that you follow that helps you both in your business and your personal life?

Craig: Well, since I came into real estate with Keller Williams, which focuses a lot on being servant leaders and helping people, I’ve gotten into the habit of writing three things I’m grateful for that day. It could be that it’s a beautiful day or a dog or my partner or the opportunity to help somebody or the coffee’s really good that day, but waking up and appreciating what you have in your life is a good way to get in a good mindset for the rest of it.

Bunny: Oh, absolutely. Something I always say is that we kind of rewire our brains. We do. We create new neural pathways every time we say that we’re grateful. So in terms of nuts and bolts, is there a way that you let your clients know? I mean, I find that there are a lot of young people, young entrepreneurs or people who are new to business, who forget how to tell their clients how they’re grateful for them, even if it’s a line in an email. Do you have something that you do specifically over and over?

Craig: I think for me, it’s maybe more in the actions. I think of “This is really going to be helpful if I do this or if I provide this information.” I think it’s always in my voice and the way that I write. I try to always communicate openly and in a friendly and conversational manner. But then I also think “It would be really cool and really helpful if I did X , Y , Z.” I created a whole PowerPoint just on the neighborhoods in Santa Fe, because if you’re out of town it gets confusing. And that came out of a client saying, “Well, I don’t really know the neighborhoods.” And I thought that this would be a great tool for them. So I created it and then I was able to use it with others. 

So I think for me, maybe it’s sort of on the fly. I used to say in the hotel hotel business, “How can I make this a wow experience?” Because the other way to think about it is that every relationship is with people. When you’re in a service business you’re really in the business of creating memories. You can create good memories or you can create bad memory and it’s much more fun to create good memories.

Bunny: And that just comes from a spirit of generosity. I mean, you obviously want this to be the best real estate experience they’ve ever had.

Craig: Right. Right. I’m very grateful for the people that have helped me along the way. I’ve been very fortunate in my career to always work for people who were concerned about my career development and my personal development and became dear friends. And I’ve had a couple of bosses that have hired me twice in two different jobs. So I’m always grateful for the things that other people have done for me. 

So then I want to pay it forward. When I came to Keller Williams and I was introduced to the team here, there was so much openness and willingness to share and help and support. It has been fantastic. What strikes me the most is how grateful I am for what other people have done for me. And how do I pay that back?

Bunny: I mean, this is not a podcast to plug Keller Williams. It’s really more to talk about mindset, but the place where I learned it was sitting in that training room and learning that my mindset was the secret sauce. I mean, that’s the success piece, right?

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s not just about production and everything. It’s about weight and having a sense of gratitude and contribution and a sense of abundance. And I don’t mean that in a monetary way. It could be abundance in your health or your friends or all of that kind of stuff. And I think back to you. Your experience with cancer was far worse than mine, but I did have prostate cancer about nine years ago. Everyone I worked with during that entire time when I was going for radiation every day for 10 weeks was so supportive. And then on the last day of radiation, there was this very important meeting, and everyone knew it was my last day.My whole team had a celebration for me on my last day. That was turning something that was obviously a challenging situation into something where I knew they really cared about me and supported me.

Bunny: Wow. I’m interested to hear how your mindset was in the middle of that? 

Craig: I’m just by nature, an optimistic person. So even though it was scary, I felt like I was in good hands from a medical standpoint and I just felt like I was gonna beat it. I had done the education that I needed to and then it was really about having a positive mindset. 

This is probably too much information, but I’ll say it anyway. You’re doing the radiation stripped down to your boxer shorts. And so I jokingly put this Facebook thing about the fact that I needed a new pair of boxer shorts for every day. And people started sending me underwear—different pairs of boxer shorts for every day. So while I was sitting there in the big machine, where you’re sort of in there and it’s buzzing and scanning and all that kind of stuff, it got to be kind of a joke with the techs:  “Oh , what’s he going to be wearing today?”

Bunny: I love that.

Craig: That was a way to keep my spirits up. And also during that process, I really learned how to be very focused. I was in a waiting room with people that were going through, frankly, worse things than prostate cancer. Don’t get me wrong, prostate cancer is pretty serious. It is. People die from it. But I was seeing so many other people that were having a much more challenging time than I was. And we became a family. We all bonded together during that process, because we were all waiting, sometimes for an hour. So it’s things like that. And also things like the kitchen angels service, where it helps reboot you every day for how grateful you should be in your own life and grateful for the opportunity to help other people.

Bunny: Right. There are tons of people who do get what a gift it is. People who don’t even have a specific gratitude practice, but at least an attitude every day that you’re going to figure out something. I just wrote a blog post on limiting beliefs and one of the things that I wanted to convey is that we get to choose every single moment how we view the world. And maybe for somebody out there who’s brand new in business or who’s starting a new business. I just read a statistic that said that the entrepreneur demographics are changing. And now like 48% of new entrepreneurs are over 50. So hooray for the old people! 

But I know that there are people out there right now who are thinking, “Well, I’m not any good at marketing. I’m not any good at that piece of it. I can sell stuff, but I’m not good at the marketing stuff.” I’ve got to tell you, I’m married to a guy who doesn’t believe in self promotion because he came from a generation when you played down your assets, instead of being grateful for them and talking about them. So I’d love to hear what you have to say to somebody who has that limiting belief that they can’t market. And they can’t promote themselves.

Craig: You know, we could all market ourselves, and we do it every day in our interactions.  Whether we think of it as marketing or not, we’re marketing ourselves all day long in how we react and treat other people. The thought I had as you were talking about your husband thinking self-promotion sounds like a dirty word is that it doesn’t have to be you talking  about “me, me, me” and “I did this million dollars in revenue.” This is kind of a turnoff in some ways, because you’re talking about yourself. But if you’re talking about how you can help somebody else and how you can provide a good experience for them with your information and knowledge, you’re not talking about yourself in that context. You’re talking about how you can be of service. I think that’s a much easier way for a lot of people from a generation where we weren’t really supposed to be talking about ourselves.

Bunny: Well, it was pre-social media. Our face wasn’t out there. We just weren’t trained to tell people, “Here’s the reason you should hire me instead of the other person.”

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, now we’re all our own brands on social media. But I think that rather than saying to somebody, “Here’s why you should hire me versus somebody else,” you should just talk about how you can be of service in what you do in an authentic way. Then people are more likely to want to work with you, because you’re radiating a sense of positivity and an interest in them. And they’re not thinking that you just look at them as a transaction and then you’re onto the next person.

Bunny: I frequently use with my marketing coaching clients the example of a dinner party. If you went into a dinner party (and this is for people who are just beginning in whatever business they’re in, especially if they’re self-employed), you wouldn’t simply walk in, take your coat off and say, “Hey, I’m selling something, come and talk to me.” Right? I mean, that’s what you don’t want to do with marketing. You want to start by building a relationship. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Craig: I think it goes all the way back to Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. People do like to talk about themselves. And so the first thing is you should be listening. That was one of the first things I learned in marketing client service. You need to ask questions and learn from your clients. Focus on what they need, as opposed to talking about yourself. You really want to establish a dialogue with them about their wants and needs and hopes and fears and everything else. Then you can talk about how you can address them. But nobody wants to go in and all of a sudden have you sit down and say, “Here’s my PowerPoint about me and what I’ve done.” It should be more of establishing, from the very beginning, a relationship of openness with folks. Then, after hearing from them, you can say “Well, here’s how I think I can you and here are some ideas that I have that I could share with you.” So I think a key thing is really listening from the very beginning.

Bunny: I even found that to be helpful when I used to first go on listing appointments. I was so nervous that I would sit down and I would immediately try to book an appointment. You know, if you’re not in real estate, a listing appointment is just like sitting down with a prospective customer. I would be so nervous in the beginning and really coming from a place of scarcity where I thought, “If I don’t get this listing, I’m not sure I can pay the rent next month.” And if you’re coming from a place of scarcity, you’re likely to self-sabotage. But that’s such good advice because things changed when I finally learned how to sit back and listen: “I’m here to help you. Tell me what it is that you need. Talk to me.” It’s so powerful to give a client time to talk to you. And I think people forget to do that, right?

Craig: Yeah. And I think sometimes we do it because we’re afraid. What I’ve learned so much over the years in business working with people is that people are terrified of silence, so they will immediately start talking. If there’s a second of silence, you jump in and start babbling. Lord knows I do it. But if you just let somebody talk and let it sort of sit there for a second and not just try to be filling in all the time. It drives me crazy when people are doing that. It’s much better if you can have the client talk and then ask some more questions and then be warm and reflective about it. Back to the Dale Carnegie thing, I think one of his first points was if you’re at the dinner party, ask people about themselves. Most people do like to talk about themselves. So ask them and don’t just start talking about yourself. 

Bunny: I think that even people who would say, “I don’t like to talk about myself,” really do want somebody to ask them and listen to them.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s not just asking them to go on and on. It’s more meaningful questions about, for example, why they decided to move here. Just those kinds of questions that get them thinking. Growing up in materialistic Dallas, the joke was that the questions at a party were like, “Where do you live? What do you do? What do you drive?” And so it’s not questions like that. It’s asking them more about their life experience,

Bunny: You just brought me to another completely different point, which is for any realtors out there listening: I think it’s really important to convey to your clients how grateful you are for where you live. I mean, if our lifestyle is such a selling point, don’t you think you should share that?

Craig: Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, living in Santa Fe there’s so much beauty. I’m looking out my window right now at the beautiful blue sky. When I leave my house in the morning and I see the mountains, and then when I’m coming home at night and the sun is setting over the mountains and I see all the different colors and everything, it’s just breathtaking. It’s great to live in such a great and wonderful environment and in a place that is very spiritual, going back with the native Americans—respect for the earth and nature and all of those things—I think it does help center us more than a lot of other places.

Bunny: How do you convey that to your clients? I know you’re doing something really cool online that’s different from some other realtors.

Craig: Well, I’m not just posting on my Facebook page,” Hey, I just sold this house or just sold that house.” Well, that’s great. But I’m more talking about new experiences in Santa Fe: new restaurants, or a new place to go hiking, or something exciting that’s happening at one of the museums or things like that—enthusiastically talking about the experience of living in Santa Fe. And if down the road, by the way, you’re looking at this stuff and you decide you want to buy a house here, I would love to help you. But it’s more about conveying the reason why we all want to live here

Bunny: And tell us about your blog, because I think it’s amazing.

Craig: So I created this blog, which is called Santa Fe Scenes. It’s that same kind of thing where it’s just talking about having fun in Santa Fe. One of the things was, you know, we’ve got the old Santa Fe trail and we’ve got the old Pincus trail, but did you know that we had a Margarita trail and a Chocolate trail? Stuff like that. Just being whimsical about it and talking about some of the things are unique about the city and sharing my own passion for Santa Fe. I was very fortunate to be able to do a lot of international travel for my job. I was grateful for the opportunity that I was given to see places that I wouldn’t have seen otherwise from Bogota to Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro and Beijing and places like that. So I’ve always been enthusiastic about travel and now living in such a beautiful place like Santa Fe, I want to share that enthusiasm with people.

Bunny: And you’re getting some good feedback on that I bet, right?

Craig: Yes, I am. I’m getting good feedback on it. It’s been a wonderful thing to reconnect with friends who are saying, “Good for you, you old dog! You’re back out there trying something new.” Because whenever someone says, “Oh, you’re a new realtor,” I say, “Well, I’m an old new realtor. I’m 61 and I’m starting this for the first time.” But it’s been great from that perspective and the support that you get from your friends. Then people are saying, “Oh, well, I know somebody who might be interested in sending you that information.” I think that’s one of the positive things that social media has done where we’ve been able to reconnect with so many people that we might have completely lost touch with.

Bunny: Oh yeah. I did a post not very long ago about how grateful I was, and it was in the middle of all the fear over Facebook and Twitter. And I just said that it’s such a great platform for reconnecting with cousins that I haven’t seen since I was six. I mean, I just turned 60. I’m an old dog and this is a new trick for me, but I think that if you use it the right way, it’s a real gift. I also think there are so many realtors, like you said, who just post either pictures of houses that they have listed or their accomplishments. And I think they’re really missing an opportunity.

Craig: Yeah. Because then you’re just talking at someone. You’re not sharing information and excitement about things with them. People don’t want to look at that stuff. They want to look at things like the fact that there are like six great chocolate tiers in Santa Fe. And then the next time I’m in town, I want to go to each one of them. Or discovering an amazing new hiking trail or a beautiful image of a shop window or a piece of art or something like that. 

Bunny: Yeah, it’s so much better than “I just listed this house at 123 main street. Don’t you wish you owned it?” Exactly.

Craig: Exactly. I think more people would react to it. I’d really like to have some of that green chili chocolate over at The Chocolate Smith or whatever. It’s much more interesting than a picture of a kitchen that has granite countertops. Oh my goodness.

Bunny: And, you know, Craig, I found that people will call me and they’ll say, “Well, I’ve been following you on Facebook for two years. And I feel like you’re my best friend. I think you’d be the right person to show me around and help me find a house.” And I bet that’s happening to you too.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s funny, you mentioned that. One of the people I’ve been mentoring told me a story about how she posted a lovely picture of herself and then somebody called her and said, “I feel like I already know you because you just look like a nice person and I feel like I can trust you.” I think also that it’s our eyes and our smile and everything that conveys so much of what you’re talking about. If you have a spirit of gratitude and service and a sense of abundance, not scarcity, it shows in your face, your eyes, your smile, and your whole persona.

Bunny: Well, we’re going to have to wrap up here in a minute, but I would love to hear if you have just three great tips that you would give to somebody who feels kind of stuck in their marketing. It could be what you’ve learned in 30 years or in the last three days, whatever it is.

Craig: I think one is changing your question from “How do I market myself?” to “What can I do for this client?” or “What can I do that’s going to excite the people? How can I make them feel appreciated and valued?” And this can work in cases where you’re actually working one-on-one with a client or cases where you’re trying to figure out how to promote what you’re doing. How do I find ways to surprise and delight people? So I like to do that with social media buys, where you come up with quirky, little things to talk about that are authentically Santa Fe or a funny picture of my dog or something like that. You want to put a smile on people’s faces. And social media gives us so many opportunities to be able to do that in ways that we couldn’t before. So the main thing at the end of it is to put your client first, and then I think everything else will come from there.

Bunny: You’re absolutely right. I think as long as your passion is helping people, then success is just a natural by-product of that.

Craig: Exactly. People feel that energy and then they want to tell their friends about you.

Bunny: What I’ve found is that people want to be able to trust somebody, especially in this business where they’re making possibly the biggest purchase of their life.

Craig: Right? I’m thinking back to these younger clients. We were touring houses, and they were interested in one particular house and I was like, “No, I’m not going to let you buy this. This is not the right move.” And I think all of a sudden they’re like, “Wow, he really cares. He’s not just thinking ‘Tick tock, tick tock. We’ve seen three houses.’” This is not House Hunters International where there are the three properties and you have to buy one. So again, it’s not a transaction. It’s a journey. It’s a relationship.

Bunny: I think that’s the most important tip for somebody to take away. Whether you’re selling widgets or earrings or house cars or houses, this is not a transaction. It’s a relationship. We want people to trust you and come back over and over. I don’t know how you can love your job if you’re not doing it the way we’re doing it.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. And have fun with it. We get to meet interesting people all day long. We get to see things. We get to use our own creativity to express ourselves. I know there are people that are in jobs that don’t have that. But I also read things about  the janitor in an elementary school who takes real pride in what they do, and they are going to do the best job that they possibly can. So I think in almost everything, you can come at it with a mindset of “How can I make this a great experience for me and for others?”

Bunny: That’s great stuff. Tell us where people can find you and where they can find your blog.

Craig: Well, probably the most fun thing I’m doing is the Santa Fe Scenes blog. 

Bunny: Okay. And we’ll share that on the information page for the podcast. And then, of course, if people want to buy a house from you, they can find you through there?

Craig: Yeah. All my information is on there. So one stop shop.

Bunny: Craig, I’m so excited that you were here. This was fun. I think we could do it again.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Bunny: Because I think this is the place where people get stuck. People who are self-employed get stuck in this part. And so I think there’s a lot of stuff that we can talk about.  But I’m of course really grateful that you agreed to talk with us.

Craig: Oh, thanks. It’s been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. 

Bunny: And to everybody else, thanks for being here. This is once again, the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry. You are welcome to go to my website if you’d like to learn more about me and about buying my book, which is all about gratitude and how gratitude helped me kick stage four cancer’s ass. And we’d love to have you follow us and subscribe on spot Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks so much, Craig.

Craig: Thank you. Next time.