61. Gratitude for Making Connections: Tiffany Dowell Lashmet Returns

Bunny: (00:11)
So we are back once again on the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast with my friend. And I don’t know why I consider you a colleague, Tiffany, because we’re like in the business of life together, but Tiffany Dowell Lashmet, who is a… She, and I share a hometown, as you’ll recall, last time we visited, we talked about how, Tiff was really purposeful in creating a life and a profession that, I think like the rest of us, you had only dreamed of when, when you were,  , I don’t know, in college and just outta college and starting new jobs, but I’m so excited to have you back. Tiff. Thanks for being here.

Tiffany: (00:54)
Yeah. Thank you for having me. I’m excited to talk to you again, Bunny.

Bunny: (00:58)
Well, I think that, I follow you of course, on all sorts of social media. And then I hear about you through the hometown grapevine, but I think that, no one, let me, let me rephrase that. I hate to speak in absolutes. There are so many people whose lives online look really, really perfect. And then there’s yours where you share messy and funny and tragic. I just wanna applaud you for being really real.

Tiffany: (01:33)
Oh.

Bunny: (01:34)
Out there in cyberspace.

Tiffany: (01:36)
yeah. Thank you. Thank you. That really is something that, that means a lot to me to hear you say that I I’ve told people before, like, if you wanna feel better about your own life, you can just look at mine. I’ll always make you feel better, cuz it’s chaos over here all the time, but that I really am trying. I try to be purposeful about that. It’s something I just think is really important and that I think that we are doing ourselves a disservice if we’re only putting out the like Instagram worthy pictures, so.

Bunny: (02:01)
Right, right. Well, tell us, I know that there are gonna be some folks who are listening, who don’t know you personally and who haven’t listened to the prior podcast. So, give us some background on who Tiffany is.

Tiffany: (02:14)
Yeah, for sure. So, I grew up, like you said, Bunny, in Eastern New Mexico, small town, which I really do think the small town grapevine was like the first Facebook because you remember how it was like, absolutely people know what’s happening before you do it. But it was great. So grew up, went to high school, graduated from high school in Logan, and then I went to Oklahoma state for an undergrad, ag business, a farm and ranch management degree, and then ended up going to law school back in New Mexico in Albuquerque at the university of New Mexico. So I did that and after law school, I practiced in firm in Albuquerque for about four years doing civil litigation.  , and at that point, an email came across my desk with a description of what I would, if I could have up a dream job, this would’ve been it.

Tiffany: (03:01)
And so I applied and ended up getting this position at Texas A&M. And so now I live in Amarillo. I am married and have two little ones. We’ve got a ranch here in Amarillo, still super involved with my family’s operation. My dad farms and we raise show lambs and cattle in Eastern New Mexico still. And I am an extension Ag law specialist, which essentially means I get to do ag law education for rural landowners and Ag producers all around the state of Texas. So, lots of moving pieces, lots of balls in the air, but it’s a really fun, profession and a fun life that I’ve been able to sort of carve out for myself.

Bunny: (03:46)
So tell us, I’m really interested in the professional piece because I think you’re doing exactly what you were born to do. I mean, it’s, at least that’s the impression I get from whenever you stand up in front of a crowd of guys who are just like your dad and my dad mm-hmm and,  , give them a little bit of knowledge to do their business better. That sounds like a dream job for you. Am I right?

Tiffany: (04:09)
Yeah, no, it is. I mean, like I said, I, I didn’t even know that job’s like this existed, so it’s, I can’t really say this is why, like why I went to law school or anything, but gosh, it gets, it’s the perfect job for me, because it lets me sort of marry, I love the law. Like I love being an attorney. I really enjoy law school. Like I just like the sort of intellectual piece of that, but I also really love ag. Right. And when I get to spend my career in rooms full of people like our dads and our neighbors and our friends, gosh, that’s something I really love as well. And this sort of lets me put the two together, and I think a gift that I really have is the ability to sort of break down the like complex legal things in a way that right, my dad and your dad could understand them, and that’s a strength I think that I’ve got and, and really sets me, up well in this position. So yeah, it’s a super fun job, very different than, your normal lawyer. I don’t have private clients. I don’t go to court. I don’t give legal advice. It’s really an educational outreach kind of role, which makes it fun. I also don’t have to do billable hours and you know, there are other benefits like that, so,

Bunny: (05:20)
Well, and here’s the cool thing. And I don’t wanna sound, you know, we’re, we, we have some listeners who have no background in places like rural, Eastern, New Mexico, but I gotta say how cool it is that a group of guys who who grew up in a very traditional ag background, who, who grew up, you know, in that you know, that farm and ranch and, and,  , without sounding too political, it’s a very red area where we grew up, those guys trust a young woman in her very early. I maybe, are you like, are you even 40 yet?

Tiffany: (05:58)
No

Bunny: (05:58)
They, I think it’s so exciting that those guys go into a room and they say this young female is, is she’s spot on. She’s got these, the answers that we need, do you ever think about how cool that is?

Tiffany: (06:14)
I do. Yeah. And I think that you’re exactly right, because I get a lot of questions on that, right? Like, what’s it like to be kind of a woman in a man’s world? And like you say, very, whether we’re talking like, you know, political or religious or whatever, but very conservative rooms that I’m in. Right. I always tell people; I spend my life with 60-year-old men in plaid shirts and that’s kind of what I do. Right. And I do I get that question a lot, right? Like, gosh, how is that? Like, how, and, and I’ll tell you, I’ve had very few, issues and, and it, it really is,  , sort of heartening to me that, you know, they do, like you say, they do listen,  , even though I’m a female, even though I’m young, even though I I’m blonde, I get phone calls. Sometimes my favorite is there’s one guy who calls periodically and asks my assistant, if he can speak to that little lady, lawyer who knows about cows. Yeah. And so, I’m like, well, yeah, he can, I that’s me. So, and like I say, I’ve just not had issues. I had issues, truthfully I had more issues with that at the law firm, surprisingly in the quote unquote, big city than I do now,  , in these ag groups. And I think part of that is, I mean, I, part of that is I work really hard to, to be good at my job and to really relate to people. And I think that’s the key, right? Because one thing I try to bring out, no matter what the legal topic I talk about is that, you know, I grew up on a farm. We have cattle now, like we’re in the industry.

Tiffany: (07:36)
I understand the industry. It’s important to me. I think once people can see that connection with you, they automatically are gonna trust you more, and that’s something that I found that I think is really,  , sort of a key to that, all working. The other thing I’ll say, and I said this, I, I spoke at kind of a women in the law program earlier this year at Texas tech law school. And one piece of advice I gave is don’t look for reasons to be offended, when you need to be offended, you’ll know, and it’ll happen. Right. Right. So, like the guy that calls me, the little lady lawyer that knows about the cows, he’s not being offensive. Right.

Bunny: (08:14)
No . He’s being who he is.

Tiffany: (08:15)
He’s just describing me. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That’s fine. And so, you know, that kind of stuff doesn’t offend me. I get honey and sweetie all the time that doesn’t offend me. You know, now I had a guy who, in court one time called me little girl that I was offended by that’s offensive. Yes. Yeah. That was offensive. Yes. So, like I say, I just sort of take it from the perspective of if I need to be offended and, and really fight about something I’ll know, but I, I truly try to like give people the benefit of the doubt as much as I can, because the majority of the time you don’t need to, to make a, a thing about it. So

Bunny: (08:49)
Well, and, like my friend Brindley, Tucker, who’s been on the podcast says all the time, always ass e positive intent.

Tiffany: (08:57)
Yes.

Bunny: (08:57)
Yes. And if some, you know, the guy who called you little girl in the courtroom didn’t have positive intent. Right. But it sounds like, you know when people have positive intent when they don’t. And I think if you’re right, if you choose, if you start a conversation thinking I’m gonna be offended, you are,

Tiffany: (09:16)
You are happen and that’s not helpful for anybody. You know? I mean, I’ve really, I’ve found out that a lot in the last couple of years, given like so much of the polarization right. In the country. I just think if we’re automatically defensive and we’re automatically angry and wanting to like fight with the other side, I, I just don’t think that that’s helpful for anybody either. Right. And so instead of starting a fight, because this guy just called me sweetie, in a program, how about I just do a really good job? And all of a sudden, he’s hitting me up outside wanting to know if I could represent him. Right. That’s better off for everybody than if I have a confrontation with him about saying sweetie at a meeting. So,

Bunny: (09:52)
Right, right, right. I, I agree with you a hundred percent. So you do all this and you help all these people in this industry, where women are not,  , perhaps as well, representative mm-hmm, represented at the moment than they will be in the future. But you also have very young children who are very close in age at home. Tell people about your kids.

Tiffany: (10:15)
Yeah, that’s right. So I’ve got two little ones, my son’s name is Braun and he is six, just finished kindergarten. And my daughter is Harper. She is five, and she just finished pre-K and they are, fantastic fun kids. Someone referred to them one time as free-range children. And I think that’s exactly, how one would describe them, they’re little farm kids that just sort of blow and go and never stop. And, yeah, like I say, it’s, it’s chaos in our house all the time with them, but it’s a lot of fun.  , and yeah, you mentioned that they’re close in age. Yeah. They’re 13 months apart, and so, yeah, there’s a time period there that’s just a big blur to me, right. My sister-in-law has a baby now and she’s asked me things like, well, how did you do this? Or what did you do about that? And I just think like, huh.. I’m sure I did that, but I don’t have a clue. I don’t, I, I recalled no details. so, yeah. Yes. But which

Bunny: (11:10)
Great. That’s so funny because when Johanna was a baby, Zachary was nine years old and people will say, well, what was he like as a 10-year-old? And like, I don’t know, a baby. I don’t, I have no recollection of those that time.

Tiffany: (11:24)
Yes.

Bunny: (11:24)
Which is kinda, I mean, it’s sad in a way, but I think it insulates you from, you know, selling them to the gypsies.

Tiffany: (11:32)
There’s gotta be some trauma a that my brain’s protecting me from there. It has to

Bunny: (11:35)
Be. Yes. Yes. And, and so one of the things that I told you I’d like to talk about this morning is this whole idea of nurturing and it’s sort of nurturing your life, like knowing what you want your life to be, and then nurturing it so that it becomes that I’m really curious.  , when you, before you had kids or when they were babies, did you sort of consciously think, I wanna have kids that have X or, or that are X, did you, was there intent or was it just like, holy macro, I’m gonna start, we’ll see what happens.

Tiffany: (12:17)
Yeah. Probably more the holy macro option was sort of how that, I wasn’t somebody who ever like, you know, dreamed of being a mom or knew I wanted to have kids that wasn’t,  , something sort of on my radar. I mean, I’m thrilled to be one, I’m glad to have them, but I wasn’t, I’ve got friends who like, that was their life calling since they were five. They knew that mm-hmm, I didn’t, so that was a little bit different for me. I think that big picture, there are things about like how I was gonna parent or how I wanted my kids to be that I think were there. Right. Like growing up in the ag industry, I think knowing I wanted to raise my kids that way was a piece that was important to me, so there were some big pictur, things like that, right?

Tiffany: (12:57)
Like obviously, like I’m a person of faith. So like the faith aspect was gonna be important to me, for raising my kids. So, there are some big picture things, there was a lot of things I thought that I knew or would do that went completely out the window funny because, you know, five minutes in I’m like, I would never let my kid do X. I’m not exactly what my kid’s doing. So, then I had kids and a lot of that went out the window. Right. Because there was stuff, I’m like, oh, I would never do that. Or I’d never let my kid act like that. And that’s exactly what my kid does and acts like, you know, so, so I think there are some of both,

Bunny: (13:32)
Oh, I absolutely, I mean, there’s always this point in life where you think that’s really not my kid. It can’t but, I love the idea of the free-range kid. I, you know, you and I were raised by women who would, who would open the door at eight o’clock in the morning and say, watch out for snakes and be back by supper. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was not, we did not have helicopter moms.

Tiffany: (13:57)
Right.

Bunny: (13:58)
And just so everybody knows I’m, we’re not contemporaries. I mean, you’re much younger than I am, but we still were raised in exactly the same environment. So, is that how you’re doing? Is that how you’re raising your

Tiffany: (14:09)
Kids? Yeah. A lot of it is. Yeah. And, and I think, we went earlier this year, we went to,  , my Alma mater. We went to Oklahoma state for a, a run thing that they had. And I met up with some friends of mine who have town kids and they were just sort of shocked at like, my kids are running all over the place, like in and out of bushes, like over by the pond. They’re not worried about where mom is. Like, they’re just doing their thing. Whereas their kids were like making sure they were in eye contact and like not, you know, kind of staying close. And we, we talked about, I think that’s a difference of how they’re raised. Like my kids don’t realize that, you know, that the world is not the pasture that they’re used to yeah. And I think, like I say, that was something that I think, and again, there’s a million ways to raise kids, but for me, given the way I was raised, that was really something that was important for, for how to raise my own kids. Right. Having that ability to run around and do those things and have animals and learn about, you know, we’ve learned a lot about life and death and the birds and the bees and that kinda stuff, in that industry. And so it’s a, it’s an industry. I really feel grateful to be able to be raising kids in now, because I just think that there’s so much benefit to that.

Bunny: (15:20)
So, so tell me what they’re doing right now. Tell what, what, so, so Glen asked me this question,  , over our, our mutual friend clinic, Henry asked me this question on Saturday night and she said, funny of all this stuff you’re doing, what is the thing you love the most? And I, I’m interested to hear what is the thing they’re doing right now that makes you just, this is the coolest thing ever. Yeah.

Tiffany: (15:46)
 , I tell you what right now for me is we’ve  , got them showing livestock,  , which is totally the like redneck, you know, country, girl answer. It’s been so great. So, my little boy has a steer of his first show steer. It’s a mini-Herford. And so, the steer is, you know, about the same height as my kid, which is perfect. So, he’s got that. And then we just got back a couple of weeks ago from a like national sheep show and sale in Reno.  , Nevada and my family took,  , a whole like string of sheep, but my kids each took a lamb a piece,  , and showed them there. And it just like, it couldn’t have been a better experience the whole, I mean, all of it, the whole show situation,  , that Reno show in particular, like I really, I told someone, I think when I look back on my life one day, like when I’m 90,  , looking back on life, like that’s one of the days that I’ll remember it was that,  , that special to me. So,

Bunny: (16:45)
And what are they learning? I’m, I’m curious to know, you can think

Tiffany: (16:49)
Their picture.  , well, I, like I said, we know more about the birds and the beads than we probably should.  , and that can come at kindergarten class at times, which gets interesting.  , but well,

Bunny: (16:59)
Tell us about that. What,

Tiffany: (17:01)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, there was one time my friend Kyla is a teacher at the school, and she was videoing Bron talking about, you know, he has a cow who’s also named Kyla and they were talking about the cow. And then all of a sudden there was a discussion about yo we were out there the other night, and the bull was riding her and this hat. And she’s like, ah, and the bell rang fortunately. And so we were saved by the bell, but yeah, they probably know more than they need to about that, but no, I, I think what they’re learning there, right? I mean, like there’s the obvious, like they’re learning about animals and caring for animals, but I think they’re also learning a lot of responsibility there. I mean, right. Those, those lands and that steer, it’s gotta be fed every day and we’ve gotta practice before we go to the show when we’ve gotta have ’em show and we’ve gotta have ’em leading and all of those things, I think, have been great through the show program.

Tiffany: (17:49)
I I’ll tell you, as far as the Reno situation went,  , like I said, that’s a, a big national show and my family goes every year.  , we’ve brought the kids into it the last couple of years.  , and you know, we, we ended up having just a phenomenal show. Bra ended up like reserve grand overall in the, the weather show, and getting to, for him to have that experience and get that confidence and stuff. When he was six years old was a huge deal. I mean, it’s, it’s amazing. The confidence different that makes in him and in Harper, Harper had a lamb that ended up, winning a banner. That that was just not even a thought in our head. I said 50 times, if that she’s just not last, I’m gonna be. And even if he is last, he’s served his purpose, it’s fine.

Tiffany: (18:33)
 , he ends up being a reserve breed champion and she gets that and like just watching the confidence that builds for those kids has been huge for me.  , and then the last thing, you know, we’ve gotten to do all this,  , as our family together. And so, you know, we’ve got pictures of, of the kids winning with my dad, right? So, they get to do this with their grandad who like, he’s the one who started all this, the show I’m saying, he’s the one who, when his dad died, he kept our farm running. I mean, he’s the reason we have all of this. So my kids gonna do that with granddad was a big deal. You know, their aunt and uncle were there, I’m there, they, my aunt and uncle, so their great aunt and uncle were there, like, we’ve got this whole family picture at the backdrop. And I just think like, gosh, I think that we’re learning here, like what really matters? And you know, it’ll be a while. They’re gonna think it’s the, it’s the banners that matter and that’s not gonna be it, you know, in years to come. And I just, I’m grateful to have the opportunity to make those kind of, of memories and hopefully lessons for them.

Bunny: (19:32)
So I also suspect there’s gonna be this really cool byproduct of all of this, which is that,  , there, they’re going to be able to talk to strangers. They’re gonna know to look somebody in the eye, shake their hands, say, hello, check in. How are you doing? I think, you know, I don’t, I don’t want this to sound like a program where we’re making judgements about the way that anybody is raising their kids. But it does feel to me that when we have kids who are more plugged into technology than into h ans and animals, in your case that they do, they have a hard time with that. I mean, people, kids don’t grow up knowing that when you meet somebody, you need to shake their hand, look them in the eye, make contact and connect.

Tiffany: (20:19)
Yeah, no, you’re exactly right. And that is something that we have been really intentional to work on with our kids. Especially my daughter is really shy, which is an interesting thing to learn to parent, right? Because I’m not, and Braun is not, Braun is like my personality all over again. Harper is really shy and once she warms up, she’s great, but it takes her a little while. And so, you know, helping her work through that and, and seeing ways to kind of build confidence and get her ready to do things like shake somebody’s hands, say, hello, look in the, you know, look in their eyes. That’s been something that I think we’ve really, focused on. And like I say, that this showing thing has really helped with, I mean, the other day when we were, again, I don’t mean to keep like harping on Reno, but when we were there, we went, for the sale, they had the sale in it’s in a casino ballroom. And so, there’s like hundreds of people out in the ballroom and you’re up on the stage under all the lights and stuff.

Tiffany: (21:14)
Harper went out there twice and showed the sheep. Like she set her sheep up. Hundreds of people looking at her, if you would’ve told me a year ago, that that would’ve been possible. I would’ve said, there’s no way, like, she’s just too shy. She’s too scared. And so I think that, like you say, I mean, we, you know, we’re using these animals and, and yeah, yeah. We wanna win. We wanna be successful. I think those are the tools to raise our kids. And I think that’s the trick there. Right? Like, and like I said, I said about that sheep. Yeah, he did. Well, if he would’ve been last, he still served his purpose because he got Harper out there on that stage, got her confidence, like she’s proud of herself and so I think that’s something and it doesn’t matter how you do it. Right. It doesn’t matter if it’s a sheep or a motorcycle or a baseball bat. You’ve just gotta find the tools I think, to, to help your kids learn those kinds of lessons.

Bunny: (22:03)
Well, and kind of let, ’em go with it. Right. Yeah. I mean, you gave her some tools and then she figured out how to use them. Right.

Tiffany: (22:09)
Absolutely. Yep. Yep.

Bunny: (22:11)
Yeah. So talk to me about how you guys, how do, how do you do, like what, what are your reinforcing, I know you have, have an evening routine that,  , well you try to have probably ,

Tiffany: (22:24)
I’m sorry. That’s right. No, no, no. Try is heavy on the try there. No, we do. We try to have you know, kind of routine things. The summer has been interesting because the kids are both home all summer with a babysitter. And, and now we’re kind of old enough to,  , do chores and things like that. So, I’ve been trying to figure out how the best way to set that up is, and so, you know, every day they get left with a list of like, here’s the things that need to be done by the time mom gets home. My gosh, is that helpful? I, I, I am in a new stage of beauty with that because there were a lot of times when those kids were like two and three and I would come home and it looked like a bomb went off in the house and the poor babysitter’s like, I’m doing the best I can , you know?

Bunny: (23:06)
Right, right, right. No, I remember those days now because I remember, and Johanna would echo it, that we lived in a house on mountain street in, on mountain road in Albuquerque. And I remember we called it the mountain road list because I would make a list yep. In the summer of everything that had to happen before I got home that day. And it was huge.

Tiffany: (23:26)
Yes. It’s yes.

Bunny: (23:28)
Life changing.

Tiffany: (23:28)
It is it’s. I really do feel like I’m in like a new stage here of like, wait a minute, these kids are helpful. So, that’s, that’s sort of a new thing we’ve added for the summer, it’s not gonna surprise anyone. I’m real type a and so things like lists and like,  , you know, I, I, I keep like in a journal, like a list of things that are important to me to try to do every day and I try to mark ’em off, you know, so with the kids, you know, that’s stuff like we all, we try to read, you know, something every day.  , we listen to like a, a faith based podcast type thing. I mean, you know, just little things like that, but I have found for myself, if I’m not kind of intentional about that, it just doesn’t happen. Right. Because life gets crazy and we got 8 million things to do, and we’re just trying to skate through till bedtime and then start again tomorrow. So that’s something that I’ve had to do. And I know I have friends who are like, oh my gosh, a list sounds terrible to me. It works for me. So I think however folks can be intentional about whatever’s important, probably doesn’t matter how that looks. Just having some way to set that intention.

Bunny: (24:32)
Well, I think that you, you know, we talk all the time about a gratitude practice, but I, I, my practice was always to wake up in the morning and my immediate prayer is thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, even that, even when I think that that’s ingrained, even when I think, you know, I’ve been doing that now for 10 years, since I was diagnosed, I’ve gotta, you know, it’s easy, easy. I’m telling you when you hit a patch that is unexpected or feels a little bit rough, then I forgot.

Tiffany: (25:04)
Yeah.

Bunny: (25:04)
Or I stopped doing it there’s and you have to choose, okay, this is what I’m gonna do every day. Right?

Tiffany: (25:10)
No, I think that’s exactly right. There’s a podcaster that I’ve listened to. And she talks about having the sort of routine and intention and, you know, gratitude journal and checklist and that sort of thing. And what she says, you know, you guys thought that we were doing that for the good times. The truth is you have to have that ritual for the bad times. That’s when you’re actually gonna need it to already be in place. And it’s an intention that you like make yourself do. It’s easier when everything’s fine and jolly, it’s, you know, great fun to wake up and read or whatever you’re doing. It’s harder when everything’s just a mess. And, but I do think that that makes sense that that’s where those routines and practices really matter.

Bunny: (25:52)
They do. And in fact, when I started it again, which would’ve, I don’t know when it was about eight or nine days ago. Because I got this funky little heart diagnosis that freaked me out. And then I got this, you know, my dad is so frail and there’s, you know, there’s just a sub swirling and it’s my annual board meeting. And I talked about this in last week’s podcast, but it, when stuff is swirling like that, and you forget your basic practices. When I started again, when I woke up one morning and thought, I gotta say it, I gotta say, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. In the midst of what feels to me like pretty negative chaos. It didn’t change my situation, but it should change me.

Tiffany: (26:34)
Yeah. I think that’s exactly right.

Bunny: (26:36)
Yeah. Yeah. So, you have this list and your kids are doing, I mean, they’re learning there. Listen, I know you said that you, you have friends who would say a list is crazy. I couldn’t function without my, you know, focus journal and right. The three things I have to do today, but the other, I mean, you eat meals together. You, you know, they do their chores. There just seems to me, seems to me that kids, that age need a lot of consistency.

Tiffany: (27:08)
Yeah. I mean, I think that all kids are sort of creatures of habit. I mean, at least it seems that way to me, we do better when we’re in a routine.  , and it doesn’t again, like I don’t wanna make it sound like everything’s figured out at my house, what, look at my

Bunny: (27:20)
Instagram. I think that’s the cool thing is that you’re clear that it’s not all figured out. It’s all in the process I’m getting it’s in the process is the journey.

Tiffany: (27:30)
Yeah.

Bunny: (27:30)
You’re making the better by letting them letting us all know that they’re not perfect.

Tiffany: (27:34)
Yeah. I hope that’s true. I hope that’s true. And like I say, I do think that the, if we can get into some sort of routine, even if there are just pieces of things that can be routine, I’ve found that to be helpful. I think it’s; I think it works really well for them. And again, that may just be my type a personality, like imposing that on them, but it seems to be helpful in the, in the house as a whole.

Bunny: (27:53)
Tell me about teaching them about compassion. Cause it seems like you’re doing that in a big way.

Tiffany: (27:58)
Yeah. Well, I’m trying,  , I feel like, I feel like that’s something that probably the world as a whole needs to do a lot better about, and myself included, no question.  , but I think that, I think that really trying to look at other people and think about like the shoes that other people are in,  , is something that’s really important to me.  , one sort of, I don’t know if it’s like a motto or whatever, but one thing I really try to sort of live by is the idea that I’m gonna just err on the side of trying to love everybody.  , whatever that looks like. Right. Like I really, I hope that that’s the way that I live my life and I hope that I’m teaching my kids to do the same. Right. So, I don’t know, just one example. I, we’ve got a friend here in town who we see periodically on the street who doesn’t have a home. And so like, we’ll pass him and I always try to stop and I know his name and we try to speak to him and give him, you know what I mean? Like whatever. And it’s been interesting to see the kids pick up on that. Right. And he’ll talk about, well that mom, that’s our friend who doesn’t have a house and we need to, oh, well, what about, you know, if we see him, can we give him this or that? I, I just think trying to see people and trying to just sort of breathe that in them to look for ways to be kind and look for ways to be compassionate. That’s something that’s really important to me and I hope that that’s something that I can successfully pass onto them.

Bunny: (29:21)
I, and I hope I don’t touch any nerves, but I would love to your kids have been, and this happens in a small town. I mean, I remember going to my first funeral when I was four years old. Yeah. Talk about how they’ve learned about loss and death.

Tiffany: (29:36)
Yeah. We’ve had quite a year, around here on that front and, and I it’s beenan interesting part. I think of parenting that I hadn’t really thought about right. Was having to walk kids throughdeath and tragedy. Obviously, like you say, I mean, I’ve probably been to a hundred funerals in my life. Like it’s just small town. We all know everybody or related to them. Right. So right, we do a lot of funerals. My kids though, in the fall, I don’t remember which happened first. We lost our horse, which I realized it’s an animal. It’s not a person. I know, but that’s a very…

Bunny: (30:10)
No, no, but I mean were by that three and four.

Tiffany: (30:16)
They were little, little, and we love, love, love that horse. And so we sort of walked through that and, and I think that that’s another thing about having animals, right? Like we learn that this happens and we have to know how to process it. And so we did that and then I think it was not long after that we had three kids in our community killed in a car accident. One of them was our neighbor who we all just adored.  Who’s 14.

Bunny: (30:41)
How  Old, how old was he?

Tiffany: (30:42)
He was, he was 14. Oh. And so that one was a lot harder, right. Because it’s like, I can explain to you about your 30-year-old horse, and, and in an interim here, we’ve also lost their great grandmother. Right. And it’s even easier to explain to you about 87-year-old Nana, the 14-year-old neighbor was tougher. And that was something that we, I really tried to be intentional about walking through with them. I had gotten some advice to like the kids having an innate way of asking what they’re ready to hear. And I sort of relied on that. I thought that was good.

Bunny: (31:20)
Wait, wait. Will you say that again?

Tiffany: (31:21)
I love that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That, that kids sort of have an innate way of asking for the amount of information that they’re ready to hear. Right. And so, I struggle with how much do we tell them, how much do we not tell them? I don’t wanna lie to anybody, but, you know, we don’t need to be in like gory details with a four-year-old. And so, I really relied on that. Right. Like if they ask a question, they are ready to hear the answer likely I’m sure there’s exceptions. Right. But, but like, sure.

Bunny: (31:47)
No, but that sounds so logical. Yeah.

Tiffany: (31:49)
And so we sort of went with that,  , and, and tried to answer questions and talk about, you know, things being sad. And, you know, we took, we took my kids into the house where everybody is crying and hugging and it’s just a nightmare. And my kids you know, have, have been to funeral homes and they’ve seen open caskets and we talk about all that. And they looks, they may be in therapy overall that at some point, but they’re probably gonna end up there anyway. So

Tiffany: (32:15)
Well, I, you know, we’re, we’re all doing the best we can. And I think that that was something where, like I said, I had to just put a lot of faith in like my intuition, like I’ll know, right. The, that, that God’s gonna help guide me on what I need to do. And then that line about them, them knowing what to ask I thought was really comforting to me as we walk through some of that,

Bunny: (32:35)
I do recall that,  , one of the things bra said when your neighbor died was that he was in heaven, riding your horse, right. Yeah. Communing or whatever he was doing. I can’t remember what I know. He didn’t use the word, but he was hanging out. Right?

Tiffany: (32:49)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That Cooper was in heaven with the horse. And, that was one of those things. Like I could get teary about it now, it’s one of those things where like, you don’t think about that as an adult. Like that’s not something that ever would’ve come to my mind. It makes perfectly logical sense for that kid. And like what a great way to think about you know, like, like what’s happening and, and, and things like that. So, I mean, probably as much as I’ve taught them about faith and life and hope through all of this, they’ve probably taught me more with little comments just like that.

Bunny: (33:19)
Right. Well, now you’re gonna make me cry. Well, I you’re, you’re doing an amazing job. I, here’s what I really like. I like that you are open about what you’re doing with your kids and you’re still open to, I mean, you’re not rigid about the way their life is unfolding and what they’re learning. And I mean, it’s, it’s pretty cool that you feel like they’re teaching you as much as you’re teaching them.

Tiffany: (33:50)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I think that that’s true on a variety of different issues. I mean, you know, I mentioned about Harper being really shy and that have be something she has to work through. Gosh, I’ve learned a lot by watching her do that. Cause again, that’s just not something that I’ve had to do. You know, like I say, Braun and my personalities are a lot the same and, and watching him has sort of made me look at some stuff that I maybe haven’t sorted out very well and go like, oh wow, I need to learn to manage that better. Just like, I’m trying to get him to manage that better, you know? Right. So, yeah, they, they’ve got a lot to teach me that’s for sure.

Bunny: (34:25)
Well, and, and one more thing I remember that I think is so cool is  going back to, they lost their great-grandmother mm-hmm but I remember when it rained. Yeah. That Harper insisted right?

Tiffany: (34:37)
Yeah. Yeah. So their great-grandmother died in the spring and we’ve been in a drought here. Hadn’t rained, hadn’t rained. It was terrible. And so we finally have a rainstorm starting and we all like run out to the porch. And again, like, we’re like free range, crazy house. And, and I, and I’m screaming like, come on rain, come on rain. Cuz we’re so excited. And the kids are running around and dancing around and I hear Harper screaming, come on, Nana, come on Nana. And I kinda looked her and I said, Harper, what are you, what are you doing? She said, well, mom, like, Nana’s the one in heaven sending the reign, like I’m cheering for N and again, it was like, gosh, I did, I never would’ve put that together. But like, yes, yes. Right. So there’s that the line in the Bible about like childlike faith and, and things like that. And it’s just, I mean, we’re getting to see it in action. And it’s really, like I said, it’s been a huge gift to me

Bunny: (35:30)
And you didn’t even know you wanted it isn’t that.

Tiffany: (35:33)
Right, right. It isn’t

Bunny: (35:34)
That funny thing. I was the same way. I wasn’t sure I wanted kids. Well, we could talk about these amazing kids and the job you’re doing with them for hours. It seems like I always say that every time I sit down and have a conversation like this, I’s like, wow, I could go, I could keep talking. We do have to stop at some point, but TIFF, I’m dying for you to come back. Well, I know you’re gonna come back with your uncle. Let’s talk for just a minute to give people,  , a taste of what that’s gonna be

Tiffany: (35:59)
Like. Yeah. I’m so excited about that. That’s gonna be, he’ll be far more interesting than I am, but my uncle, Buddy served a tour of duty in Vietnam. When he was younger, like in his twenties. And then in the last it’s probably been five or six years ago he wrote a book about his experience. I helped him kind of pull that together. It’s fascinating. It’s from his journal entries, from Vietnam stories, he remembers all the letters that he wrote home to my grandparents. We compiled that all into a book about his year in Vietnam. It’s fascinating. He did a fantastic job. He’s so proud of it proceeds of the book go to different scholarship funds for the first Cav, if you’ve got kids that are of, of members from the first Cav, he also donates money to a group that helps homeless veterans. And so, it was a real fun project to work on. It’s one of the things I’m the proudest of. I think that I’ve done in my life was helping him get that book out to fruition. So, I’m really excited to have him come talk to you. He’s great.

Bunny: (37:08)
I can’t wait. I can’t wait. And until then, just keep us posted on that chaotic life you’re living with those kids because it is so joyous to watch. I love it. Well,

Tiffany: (37:18)
You’re very kind. Thank you. I appreciate you watching along. Like I say, it’s always an adventure, so who knows what’s gonna come next.

Bunny: (37:25)
Nice. Well, thanks for being here, Tiffany,

Tiffany: (37:27)
For sure. Thanks Bunny.

Speaker 3: (37:29)
That’s all we’ve got today. Friends. I wanna thank you for joining the Lifesaving gratitude podcast with your host bunny Terry that’s me and my producer and assistant Johanna Medina. We feel like we’re in the business of sharing the stories that save us and we hope you’ll share as well by letting your friends and family know about the podcast follow and like us wherever you listed. And please take the time to leave a review, whether it’s a stellar comment or a suggestion, we are open to suggestions all the time. Also follow us on Instagram at Lifesaving gratitude pod. You can also follow me personally at Bunny Terry, Santa Fe. You can sign up at my website, bunnyterry.com to receive weekly emails about how to become the ultimate gratitude nerd. Thanks so much for checking in.

Bunny: Hi everyone. This is Bunny with the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. Just in case you don’t know me, I am a stage four colon cancer survivor and the author of Lifesaving Gratitude, which is a book about how gratitude helped me kick cancer’s ass. 

Today we’re going to talk to a special guest about how marketing and marketers can use gratitude to create business and connections with clients and also for themselves to create a really positive way to do their job. But first, I just want to thank you for being here and ask that you download the podcast if you’d like. And certainly subscribe wherever you listen to other podcasts. But enough about me and enough about the podcast. 

I want to introduce you to my special guest, who’s also a friend. Craig Cunningham is currently a realtor with Keller Williams, Santa Fe. And that’s how I met him. However, this is a recent career for him and he was, and correct me if I mispronounce the word, but you were a hotelier. Is that the way to say that?

Craig: Yes. 

Bunny: Yes. He’s spent 30 years in corporate sales and marketing. He’s traveled extensively. I’m going to let him tell you all the places that he’s been to, but he is the founder and principal of Cunningham + Colleagues marketing consultants. He was in the past the VP of marketing and quality for Seaport Hotels and World Centers and the VP of marketing for Core North America. So welcome Craig Cunningham.

Craig: Thanks so much for having me on your podcast.

Bunny: I’m excited. I know you have some great tips for all of our listeners. When I think about these podcasts, I always think about the people that are going to want the information we’re offering. I mean, we’re here to help people and we’re here to figure out how gratitude can make everyone’s life not just easier and simpler, but also fuller. So why don’t you start, Greg? Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us how in the world you ended up in this completely different career? And yet the truth is we’re still just marketers first and realtors, second. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell our listeners.

Craig: Yeah. So, as you said, I’ve been in marketing and sales for more than 30 years. I actually started off with an advertising and PR agency and then had the good fortune to be hired by my hotel client at the time, Wyndham hotels. At that time it was a North American chain and it’s now international. 

But from then on, I was in the hotel business. It’s definitely a career where if you are not focused on client service and the whole concept of gratitude, you’re not going to be successful. I always thought of our job as just surprising and delighting our guests and making them feel like they chose the right hotel to be with. And so it was always about waking up every day and saying, “What can I do to make somebody’s day and to give them a great experience?” And, of course, to do this you have to be grateful because they opted to choose your hotel over the million other choices that they had. 

So when I retired from the hotel business two years ago, I was trying to figure out what else I wanted to do with my life. I started doing more volunteering. I volunteer with Kitchen Angels here in Santa Fe to deliver meals to people who are not able to leave their homes. But I also started thinking of whether I wanted to do something else from a professional standpoint and the real estate business seemed like a natural extension, because it’s all about client service. You have to figure out ways to make people feel like they’ve made the right choice in working with you. So it’s all about being grateful every day and figuring out what can I do to help them today. How else can I extend what I’m doing for them in a way that they will appreciate and know that I appreciate them. So that’s what it’s really all about, because of course they could work with a million other other people

Bunny: Right. And let’s talk for just a second. Don’t you think that marketing has changed over the 30 years that you’ve been doing this? I mean, it seems to me that when we were kids, which was back before the crust cooled, we were sort of marketed at. Just talk for a minute about how marketing is different now than it was 10 years ago or 30 years ago.

Craig: It’s funny, because I was going to say the exact same thing. Back in the day, you were running a TV ad or a radio spot or a print ad and it was passive in that you just presented the information, unless you were direct sales. But really with the advent of so much digital media, you are instantly able to forge a relationship with customers through social media, through Facebook, Instagram, where you’re having a dialogue with them from the very beginning. This allows you to work in a much more personal way and to be able to find out much more quickly how you can serve those people. 

So I think it’s changed completely. Before you just sort of put it out there into the ether and hope that something worked, and now you’re able to engage. And I’ve found that so much in real estate where I’m getting emails from folks and then it evolves from the email into a phone call or a zoom call or something like that instantly. I think that’s so much better for both people. Especially for somebody like me who wants to find ways to engage with people and to be of service to them, it makes it a lot easier and more rewarding.

Bunny: I just think about the ways that I connect with my clients. It’s as if you’re somehow conveying to those people that you’re grateful that they showed up.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, my whole thought is that it’s not a transaction, it’s a relationship. And that relationship can be multifaceted. Once you’ve sold them a house or sold their house, I like to think that we’ve formed a friendship and a bond and that relationship is going to continue. And honestly, I don’t even care if I ever get another piece of business for them. Now think of them as friends. I want to have them to my house for dinner or go have coffee or something like that. 

I think that kind of thing that makes a difference for people in wanting to work with me.  It’s coming from a position of wanting to be of service to them and wanting to make them happy and finding the right solution for them. I’m working with some first-time-buyers right now and I kind of feel like they’re my kids. It’s about, okay, how can I really help them with this? And they’re grateful for the counsel I’m able to give to them, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to work with them. So it’s very rewarding. I think if you approach business relationships in the same way as you would with your friends, it’s a win-win situation for everybody.

Bunny: Well, talking about those first-time home buyers, I mean, that’s one of my favorite deals. You never make the most money from those transactions, but I’m so grateful to be reminded that we are providing the American dream when we’re selling real estate. Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s my favorite experience.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, for somebody to have their first home and to be excited about how they’re going to decorate it and what they’re going to do. And with this young couple, seeing them excited when they see a house brings out all my empathy and makes me want to really go the extra mile for them to make sure they find the right house at the right price for them. And then I just never want to stop. So then it’s like, “Okay, now I’m going to find this person for you to do the plumbing, and I’m going to find this person, etc, and I’ll be with you with you  to help explain things.” I just want to really continue to be of service.

Bunny: I talk a lot, especially on my blog, about Judy Camp, who was one of my first real estate mentors. She was a great friend and Linda Gammons partner for a long time before she passed away. But Judy Camp always says, “If you come from contribution, you can’t help but be successful.”

Craig: Yeah. I mean, just as I was saying, you can’t think of it as a transaction. I think, coming from contribution, how can I help you? How can I make this a better experience? How can I make this work? Because, especially in a real estate transaction, it can be stressful. It’s the biggest financial transaction for the majority of us. So how do you take the burden and the pressure away from them and sort of guide them through the process? I just think the main thing is that it’s much more fun, whether you’re doing volunteer work or in business, to wake up every day and figure out how I could make it fun for somebody else. Because then it’s fun for you and it gets you excited and passionate about what you’re doing.

Bunny: Well, it sounds like our big “why’s” are really similar. I certainly don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but it sounds like your big “why” is just to make the life of the people you come in contact with better.

Craig: Yeah. Of course making money is nice, but there are lots of ways to make money. It’s more about whether you are getting energy from it. And I think you really get energy when you’re working with someone and trying to figure out how you can help them, how you can make their day better, how you can make the service that you’re providing better. And also just doing things that saying, “What about if I do X, Y, Z?” and they’re  like, “Oh, you’ll do that for me?” And I’m like, “Of course.”

I have another set of clients where the transaction was fairly complicated and we were looking at lots of properties. Coming from a corporate background, I love to do spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations—things like that. And so after about the third thing we had to do, they’re like, “Oh, how are we going to organize all these bids?”  And then one of the guys said to the other guy, “Well, Craig’s going to do a spreadsheet for us. He’s probably already got it done.” So it’s that kind of thing where you’re looking for ways to make their experience better.

Bunny: So this is always a funny question for me to ask, because I have such a loose gratitude practice other than just waking up in the morning and saying, “thank you, thank you, thank you,” and then writing things down, but do you have a practice that you follow that helps you both in your business and your personal life?

Craig: Well, since I came into real estate with Keller Williams, which focuses a lot on being servant leaders and helping people, I’ve gotten into the habit of writing three things I’m grateful for that day. It could be that it’s a beautiful day or a dog or my partner or the opportunity to help somebody or the coffee’s really good that day, but waking up and appreciating what you have in your life is a good way to get in a good mindset for the rest of it.

Bunny: Oh, absolutely. Something I always say is that we kind of rewire our brains. We do. We create new neural pathways every time we say that we’re grateful. So in terms of nuts and bolts, is there a way that you let your clients know? I mean, I find that there are a lot of young people, young entrepreneurs or people who are new to business, who forget how to tell their clients how they’re grateful for them, even if it’s a line in an email. Do you have something that you do specifically over and over?

Craig: I think for me, it’s maybe more in the actions. I think of “This is really going to be helpful if I do this or if I provide this information.” I think it’s always in my voice and the way that I write. I try to always communicate openly and in a friendly and conversational manner. But then I also think “It would be really cool and really helpful if I did X , Y , Z.” I created a whole PowerPoint just on the neighborhoods in Santa Fe, because if you’re out of town it gets confusing. And that came out of a client saying, “Well, I don’t really know the neighborhoods.” And I thought that this would be a great tool for them. So I created it and then I was able to use it with others. 

So I think for me, maybe it’s sort of on the fly. I used to say in the hotel hotel business, “How can I make this a wow experience?” Because the other way to think about it is that every relationship is with people. When you’re in a service business you’re really in the business of creating memories. You can create good memories or you can create bad memory and it’s much more fun to create good memories.

Bunny: And that just comes from a spirit of generosity. I mean, you obviously want this to be the best real estate experience they’ve ever had.

Craig: Right. Right. I’m very grateful for the people that have helped me along the way. I’ve been very fortunate in my career to always work for people who were concerned about my career development and my personal development and became dear friends. And I’ve had a couple of bosses that have hired me twice in two different jobs. So I’m always grateful for the things that other people have done for me. 

So then I want to pay it forward. When I came to Keller Williams and I was introduced to the team here, there was so much openness and willingness to share and help and support. It has been fantastic. What strikes me the most is how grateful I am for what other people have done for me. And how do I pay that back?

Bunny: I mean, this is not a podcast to plug Keller Williams. It’s really more to talk about mindset, but the place where I learned it was sitting in that training room and learning that my mindset was the secret sauce. I mean, that’s the success piece, right?

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s not just about production and everything. It’s about weight and having a sense of gratitude and contribution and a sense of abundance. And I don’t mean that in a monetary way. It could be abundance in your health or your friends or all of that kind of stuff. And I think back to you. Your experience with cancer was far worse than mine, but I did have prostate cancer about nine years ago. Everyone I worked with during that entire time when I was going for radiation every day for 10 weeks was so supportive. And then on the last day of radiation, there was this very important meeting, and everyone knew it was my last day.My whole team had a celebration for me on my last day. That was turning something that was obviously a challenging situation into something where I knew they really cared about me and supported me.

Bunny: Wow. I’m interested to hear how your mindset was in the middle of that? 

Craig: I’m just by nature, an optimistic person. So even though it was scary, I felt like I was in good hands from a medical standpoint and I just felt like I was gonna beat it. I had done the education that I needed to and then it was really about having a positive mindset. 

This is probably too much information, but I’ll say it anyway. You’re doing the radiation stripped down to your boxer shorts. And so I jokingly put this Facebook thing about the fact that I needed a new pair of boxer shorts for every day. And people started sending me underwear—different pairs of boxer shorts for every day. So while I was sitting there in the big machine, where you’re sort of in there and it’s buzzing and scanning and all that kind of stuff, it got to be kind of a joke with the techs:  “Oh , what’s he going to be wearing today?”

Bunny: I love that.

Craig: That was a way to keep my spirits up. And also during that process, I really learned how to be very focused. I was in a waiting room with people that were going through, frankly, worse things than prostate cancer. Don’t get me wrong, prostate cancer is pretty serious. It is. People die from it. But I was seeing so many other people that were having a much more challenging time than I was. And we became a family. We all bonded together during that process, because we were all waiting, sometimes for an hour. So it’s things like that. And also things like the kitchen angels service, where it helps reboot you every day for how grateful you should be in your own life and grateful for the opportunity to help other people.

Bunny: Right. There are tons of people who do get what a gift it is. People who don’t even have a specific gratitude practice, but at least an attitude every day that you’re going to figure out something. I just wrote a blog post on limiting beliefs and one of the things that I wanted to convey is that we get to choose every single moment how we view the world. And maybe for somebody out there who’s brand new in business or who’s starting a new business. I just read a statistic that said that the entrepreneur demographics are changing. And now like 48% of new entrepreneurs are over 50. So hooray for the old people! 

But I know that there are people out there right now who are thinking, “Well, I’m not any good at marketing. I’m not any good at that piece of it. I can sell stuff, but I’m not good at the marketing stuff.” I’ve got to tell you, I’m married to a guy who doesn’t believe in self promotion because he came from a generation when you played down your assets, instead of being grateful for them and talking about them. So I’d love to hear what you have to say to somebody who has that limiting belief that they can’t market. And they can’t promote themselves.

Craig: You know, we could all market ourselves, and we do it every day in our interactions.  Whether we think of it as marketing or not, we’re marketing ourselves all day long in how we react and treat other people. The thought I had as you were talking about your husband thinking self-promotion sounds like a dirty word is that it doesn’t have to be you talking  about “me, me, me” and “I did this million dollars in revenue.” This is kind of a turnoff in some ways, because you’re talking about yourself. But if you’re talking about how you can help somebody else and how you can provide a good experience for them with your information and knowledge, you’re not talking about yourself in that context. You’re talking about how you can be of service. I think that’s a much easier way for a lot of people from a generation where we weren’t really supposed to be talking about ourselves.

Bunny: Well, it was pre-social media. Our face wasn’t out there. We just weren’t trained to tell people, “Here’s the reason you should hire me instead of the other person.”

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, now we’re all our own brands on social media. But I think that rather than saying to somebody, “Here’s why you should hire me versus somebody else,” you should just talk about how you can be of service in what you do in an authentic way. Then people are more likely to want to work with you, because you’re radiating a sense of positivity and an interest in them. And they’re not thinking that you just look at them as a transaction and then you’re onto the next person.

Bunny: I frequently use with my marketing coaching clients the example of a dinner party. If you went into a dinner party (and this is for people who are just beginning in whatever business they’re in, especially if they’re self-employed), you wouldn’t simply walk in, take your coat off and say, “Hey, I’m selling something, come and talk to me.” Right? I mean, that’s what you don’t want to do with marketing. You want to start by building a relationship. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Craig: I think it goes all the way back to Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. People do like to talk about themselves. And so the first thing is you should be listening. That was one of the first things I learned in marketing client service. You need to ask questions and learn from your clients. Focus on what they need, as opposed to talking about yourself. You really want to establish a dialogue with them about their wants and needs and hopes and fears and everything else. Then you can talk about how you can address them. But nobody wants to go in and all of a sudden have you sit down and say, “Here’s my PowerPoint about me and what I’ve done.” It should be more of establishing, from the very beginning, a relationship of openness with folks. Then, after hearing from them, you can say “Well, here’s how I think I can you and here are some ideas that I have that I could share with you.” So I think a key thing is really listening from the very beginning.

Bunny: I even found that to be helpful when I used to first go on listing appointments. I was so nervous that I would sit down and I would immediately try to book an appointment. You know, if you’re not in real estate, a listing appointment is just like sitting down with a prospective customer. I would be so nervous in the beginning and really coming from a place of scarcity where I thought, “If I don’t get this listing, I’m not sure I can pay the rent next month.” And if you’re coming from a place of scarcity, you’re likely to self-sabotage. But that’s such good advice because things changed when I finally learned how to sit back and listen: “I’m here to help you. Tell me what it is that you need. Talk to me.” It’s so powerful to give a client time to talk to you. And I think people forget to do that, right?

Craig: Yeah. And I think sometimes we do it because we’re afraid. What I’ve learned so much over the years in business working with people is that people are terrified of silence, so they will immediately start talking. If there’s a second of silence, you jump in and start babbling. Lord knows I do it. But if you just let somebody talk and let it sort of sit there for a second and not just try to be filling in all the time. It drives me crazy when people are doing that. It’s much better if you can have the client talk and then ask some more questions and then be warm and reflective about it. Back to the Dale Carnegie thing, I think one of his first points was if you’re at the dinner party, ask people about themselves. Most people do like to talk about themselves. So ask them and don’t just start talking about yourself. 

Bunny: I think that even people who would say, “I don’t like to talk about myself,” really do want somebody to ask them and listen to them.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s not just asking them to go on and on. It’s more meaningful questions about, for example, why they decided to move here. Just those kinds of questions that get them thinking. Growing up in materialistic Dallas, the joke was that the questions at a party were like, “Where do you live? What do you do? What do you drive?” And so it’s not questions like that. It’s asking them more about their life experience,

Bunny: You just brought me to another completely different point, which is for any realtors out there listening: I think it’s really important to convey to your clients how grateful you are for where you live. I mean, if our lifestyle is such a selling point, don’t you think you should share that?

Craig: Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, living in Santa Fe there’s so much beauty. I’m looking out my window right now at the beautiful blue sky. When I leave my house in the morning and I see the mountains, and then when I’m coming home at night and the sun is setting over the mountains and I see all the different colors and everything, it’s just breathtaking. It’s great to live in such a great and wonderful environment and in a place that is very spiritual, going back with the native Americans—respect for the earth and nature and all of those things—I think it does help center us more than a lot of other places.

Bunny: How do you convey that to your clients? I know you’re doing something really cool online that’s different from some other realtors.

Craig: Well, I’m not just posting on my Facebook page,” Hey, I just sold this house or just sold that house.” Well, that’s great. But I’m more talking about new experiences in Santa Fe: new restaurants, or a new place to go hiking, or something exciting that’s happening at one of the museums or things like that—enthusiastically talking about the experience of living in Santa Fe. And if down the road, by the way, you’re looking at this stuff and you decide you want to buy a house here, I would love to help you. But it’s more about conveying the reason why we all want to live here

Bunny: And tell us about your blog, because I think it’s amazing.

Craig: So I created this blog, which is called Santa Fe Scenes. It’s that same kind of thing where it’s just talking about having fun in Santa Fe. One of the things was, you know, we’ve got the old Santa Fe trail and we’ve got the old Pincus trail, but did you know that we had a Margarita trail and a Chocolate trail? Stuff like that. Just being whimsical about it and talking about some of the things are unique about the city and sharing my own passion for Santa Fe. I was very fortunate to be able to do a lot of international travel for my job. I was grateful for the opportunity that I was given to see places that I wouldn’t have seen otherwise from Bogota to Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro and Beijing and places like that. So I’ve always been enthusiastic about travel and now living in such a beautiful place like Santa Fe, I want to share that enthusiasm with people.

Bunny: And you’re getting some good feedback on that I bet, right?

Craig: Yes, I am. I’m getting good feedback on it. It’s been a wonderful thing to reconnect with friends who are saying, “Good for you, you old dog! You’re back out there trying something new.” Because whenever someone says, “Oh, you’re a new realtor,” I say, “Well, I’m an old new realtor. I’m 61 and I’m starting this for the first time.” But it’s been great from that perspective and the support that you get from your friends. Then people are saying, “Oh, well, I know somebody who might be interested in sending you that information.” I think that’s one of the positive things that social media has done where we’ve been able to reconnect with so many people that we might have completely lost touch with.

Bunny: Oh yeah. I did a post not very long ago about how grateful I was, and it was in the middle of all the fear over Facebook and Twitter. And I just said that it’s such a great platform for reconnecting with cousins that I haven’t seen since I was six. I mean, I just turned 60. I’m an old dog and this is a new trick for me, but I think that if you use it the right way, it’s a real gift. I also think there are so many realtors, like you said, who just post either pictures of houses that they have listed or their accomplishments. And I think they’re really missing an opportunity.

Craig: Yeah. Because then you’re just talking at someone. You’re not sharing information and excitement about things with them. People don’t want to look at that stuff. They want to look at things like the fact that there are like six great chocolate tiers in Santa Fe. And then the next time I’m in town, I want to go to each one of them. Or discovering an amazing new hiking trail or a beautiful image of a shop window or a piece of art or something like that. 

Bunny: Yeah, it’s so much better than “I just listed this house at 123 main street. Don’t you wish you owned it?” Exactly.

Craig: Exactly. I think more people would react to it. I’d really like to have some of that green chili chocolate over at The Chocolate Smith or whatever. It’s much more interesting than a picture of a kitchen that has granite countertops. Oh my goodness.

Bunny: And, you know, Craig, I found that people will call me and they’ll say, “Well, I’ve been following you on Facebook for two years. And I feel like you’re my best friend. I think you’d be the right person to show me around and help me find a house.” And I bet that’s happening to you too.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s funny, you mentioned that. One of the people I’ve been mentoring told me a story about how she posted a lovely picture of herself and then somebody called her and said, “I feel like I already know you because you just look like a nice person and I feel like I can trust you.” I think also that it’s our eyes and our smile and everything that conveys so much of what you’re talking about. If you have a spirit of gratitude and service and a sense of abundance, not scarcity, it shows in your face, your eyes, your smile, and your whole persona.

Bunny: Well, we’re going to have to wrap up here in a minute, but I would love to hear if you have just three great tips that you would give to somebody who feels kind of stuck in their marketing. It could be what you’ve learned in 30 years or in the last three days, whatever it is.

Craig: I think one is changing your question from “How do I market myself?” to “What can I do for this client?” or “What can I do that’s going to excite the people? How can I make them feel appreciated and valued?” And this can work in cases where you’re actually working one-on-one with a client or cases where you’re trying to figure out how to promote what you’re doing. How do I find ways to surprise and delight people? So I like to do that with social media buys, where you come up with quirky, little things to talk about that are authentically Santa Fe or a funny picture of my dog or something like that. You want to put a smile on people’s faces. And social media gives us so many opportunities to be able to do that in ways that we couldn’t before. So the main thing at the end of it is to put your client first, and then I think everything else will come from there.

Bunny: You’re absolutely right. I think as long as your passion is helping people, then success is just a natural by-product of that.

Craig: Exactly. People feel that energy and then they want to tell their friends about you.

Bunny: What I’ve found is that people want to be able to trust somebody, especially in this business where they’re making possibly the biggest purchase of their life.

Craig: Right? I’m thinking back to these younger clients. We were touring houses, and they were interested in one particular house and I was like, “No, I’m not going to let you buy this. This is not the right move.” And I think all of a sudden they’re like, “Wow, he really cares. He’s not just thinking ‘Tick tock, tick tock. We’ve seen three houses.’” This is not House Hunters International where there are the three properties and you have to buy one. So again, it’s not a transaction. It’s a journey. It’s a relationship.

Bunny: I think that’s the most important tip for somebody to take away. Whether you’re selling widgets or earrings or house cars or houses, this is not a transaction. It’s a relationship. We want people to trust you and come back over and over. I don’t know how you can love your job if you’re not doing it the way we’re doing it.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. And have fun with it. We get to meet interesting people all day long. We get to see things. We get to use our own creativity to express ourselves. I know there are people that are in jobs that don’t have that. But I also read things about  the janitor in an elementary school who takes real pride in what they do, and they are going to do the best job that they possibly can. So I think in almost everything, you can come at it with a mindset of “How can I make this a great experience for me and for others?”

Bunny: That’s great stuff. Tell us where people can find you and where they can find your blog.

Craig: Well, probably the most fun thing I’m doing is the Santa Fe Scenes blog. 

Bunny: Okay. And we’ll share that on the information page for the podcast. And then, of course, if people want to buy a house from you, they can find you through there?

Craig: Yeah. All my information is on there. So one stop shop.

Bunny: Craig, I’m so excited that you were here. This was fun. I think we could do it again.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Bunny: Because I think this is the place where people get stuck. People who are self-employed get stuck in this part. And so I think there’s a lot of stuff that we can talk about.  But I’m of course really grateful that you agreed to talk with us.

Craig: Oh, thanks. It’s been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. 

Bunny: And to everybody else, thanks for being here. This is once again, the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry. You are welcome to go to my website if you’d like to learn more about me and about buying my book, which is all about gratitude and how gratitude helped me kick stage four cancer’s ass. And we’d love to have you follow us and subscribe on spot Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks so much, Craig.

Craig: Thank you. Next time.