Gratitude Through Grief: Amber Hale

Bunny: Hi everyone. Bunny Terry here with the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. I’m excited that you’re here and this is a really special show today. We’re talking about gratitude through grief. Johanna is going to give us a little disclaimer, because this is a really tough topic that we’re talking about today.

Johanna: Yeah. We have such a great episode for you today, but we definitely wanted to give a quick disclaimer and trigger warning before the beginning of the episode, because our guest is going to be talking about suicide and self-harm. Of course that is a very sensitive topic. If this is a trigger for you or something that you’d rather not hear discussed, please feel free to skip this episode. And also we wanted to make sure everyone knew that there are resources out there for you, if you or anyone you know is experiencing thoughts of suicide or self-harm. Please be sure to reach out to these resources: If you’re in the New Mexico area, you can always call the New Mexico Crisis and Access Line toll free anytime at +1 855-662-7474. And if you are outside of the New Mexico area, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, which is also available 24 hours and completely anonymous is +1 800-273-8255. Please, please seek help if you need it. Thank you.

Bunny: I want to introduce all of our listeners today to my great friend, Amber Hale. Amber and I met in sort of interesting circumstances. She came to a Keller Williams training, and even though she’s decidedly much younger than I am, we immediately bonded and had stories to share with each other. And I gotta say, I sat down at the table and well, sometimes you look around the table and some people just have more of a presence than others. Amber had this really beautiful and, I think, relatively new tattoo, and I admired it and then she told me about it. So Amber, can you tell our listeners what that was about?

Amber: I had gotten a tattoo. It was two months old when you and I met.

Bunny: It was in memory of your son that died by suicide five months before. And when you told me that, I thought that if I had lost my son five months earlier, I would be under the bed. I wouldn’t be at this gathering, which was all about mindset and learning a new way to think that helped us to be successful professionally and personally. I was so struck by your bravery and I’m just telling you, I don’t have words for how that works.

Amber: It was a pretty powerful day for me too. You inspired me because you shared your story about being a survivor. And I kind of thought about all of the things that were not about me. I thought about you. I couldn’t believe you were there in this class.

Bunny: Well, it was a powerful day and I’m so grateful for that. We can talk about our experience there for hours, but part of our goal here is that we want to seek answers. We want to talk about the mindset of gratitude, and we want to share what we know as experts in our own lives. I’m not an expert at anything except what worked for me. I keep repeating this phrase that I heard from a Brené Brown podcast episode where she said, “We want to help people write a brave new ending.” And I’ve got to tell you, I don’t know anybody who’s done that better than you have, Amber. And so tell us about that. Tell us whatever you would like for us to know about your son who died of suicide at 13, which is unthinkable. And yet here you are living life. You’re an expert at how to live your own life.

Amber: Thad was incredible. He was just 13 years old, like you said. We moved to New Mexico when he was 12 and two weeks after we moved, he decided to run for student council. He had been on student council in the sixth grade and fifth grade of elementary school. He was driven. He gave an amazing speech. He had these long curly curly locks of hair that he kept running his hands through. He hammed it up pretty well and he was elected to the student council. So that was pretty cool. 

As parents, moving a kid at that age is really difficult. I wanted to make sure he was able to go to this school for a few weeks before summer break started so that hopefully he’d make some friends. So when he got on student council, that was fun. The next year he had lots of friends. He was constantly busy with student council. He was also the volleyball manager. 

Then he started getting a little bit distant and developing quite a bit of attitude. And honestly, I was a teenager once and I just thought it was hormones. He was wanting to be more independent, instead of just a boy, I guess. And so we didn’t think too much of it. 

But by October, it was so bad that he was constantly fighting with us. He was constantly in his bedroom. One Sunday, I had asked him to clean his room and I went to check on him a couple of hours later. I’m sure you’ve seen a teenager’s room before. It was a disaster. And he was not cleaning it. He was laying on his bed playing with his phone. So I was like, “Gimme your phone right now.” We have an agreement that if I was the one paying for his phone, then I got to look at it any time. 

I started looking through it and I found text messages to a friend of his, where he was asking her if she was the one that turned him in for threatening to commit suicide. And I immediately freaked out. My husband was out of town at a training in Texas. I asked, “Excuse me, is this true? Did you really do this?” But I was still thinking that it was no big deal. 

But then we started looking more and we found more concerning things on the phone. I found pictures that he had been cutting himself and sharing them with his friends. And his friends were also sharing pictures of them cutting themselves. 

So I felt it was really important that I go talk to the school. I could take care of my child, but I wanted to alert the other parents who didn’t know what was going on with their kids. And I just asked them, “What’s the protocol for when a child threatens to take their life? Why did I not get a call from you guys?” And it was excuse after excuse after excuse. 

But I talked to the school counselor and they assured me that Thad was just fine and that he was probably just looking for attention. I said, okay, but we decided to go ahead and take him to a doctor. And when he was speaking with the doctor, it was very clear he had anxiety and depression. We decided maybe we do need to put Thad on medication, so he started on Prozac. I was concerned about Prozac, but decided to go for it. And he turned back into Thad. He was playing with his brother again and helping out around the house.

Bunny: I think it would be fun if you would tell us about Malakai so that people know what you mean when you say he was hanging around with your other son. I just looked at that picture that you posted this morning of him with Kai. So tell us about Kai.

Amber: Okay. So Malakai is 11 now, but he was born when Thad was eight years old. He had been asking for a brother since he was about three and he was so excited when Malika was born. It was like his child. He helped me with everything. He changed diapers. He didn’t love doing those things. He just adored his brother. He was always with him. He taught him how to ride a bike. He and his brother were pretty inseparable. 

Bunny: So after he took the medication, he got back to interacting with Kai again, right?

Amber: Yeah. It was incredible. We really relaxed. I think that’s really important for anybody that might be listening who is dealing with someone that has anxiety and depression, and has had suicidal thoughts. Of course, not everybody who has depression has suicidal thoughts. I want to make sure that’s clear. But if you’re dealing with someone with suicidal thoughts and they’re on medication, don’t breathe that sigh of relief so quickly. We were told to wait six weeks and to keep a good eye on him. 

At four weeks, I had just started a new job. I was at my office and I just got this feeling that I needed to go home. And I was never one of those moms that worries about their babies. I have so much respect for those moms that feel that way. I just wasn’t one of them. But I just had this feeling that I needed to go home right away. I was so new to the business that I thought I had to ask for permission to leave work early. So I did. 

I went and picked up Malakai and we drove home. I live about 30 minutes from my work. So while we were driving, Malakai was telling me about his day, as he always did, and I was thinking about how much I missed my kids and how much I’ve been working really hard to get into real estate and pass the exams, etc. I’d been out of town, and as soon as I got back, I started working with a brokerage. I was a workaholic. I was constantly trying to build something. I really wanted to build a successful business. I realized that I’d neglected those relationships. So we were going to have so much fun. 

I got home and when I walked in the door, Thad’s backpack was in the living room. It’s not that big of a deal, right? But it was to me at that time. I was angry and I started yelling for him because he knew that he needed to put his stuff in his room. And there was no answer. So I started looking through the house, no answer. He wasn’t anywhere to be found. So then I was even more upset. I was certain that he went to a friend’s house without telling me, so I called him on his cell phone and I heard it ringing in the other room. And I saw that it was charging in my bedroom. 

So by this point I was really mad. Looking back on it, I don’t get angry like that. So it’s just so surreal to think about that, because I was so mad and it was something so small. It was complicated by the fact that he had left without telling me, and didn’t leave a note and didn’t take his phone. 

It was about five o’clock when my husband got home. Ryan and I have always had this  agreement that we never spoke about one child in front of the other. So I asked Ryan to go outside with me so that we could talk about it. And as I walked outside, I remembered that I hadn’t checked the guest house to see if for some reason he was in there. So I walked out ahead of him and that’s when I found Thad. He had taken his life. 

We didn’t know that at the time. My husband was an EMT and so he immediately started checking on him. Shock is such a weird thing. I asked him if I needed to call 9-1-1, and he got very angry with me for asking that question. But I called 9-1-1. I was not helpful, and he ended up talking to them. The rest of the day was kind of a whirlwind.

About three hours later, they were able to determine what had happened and how he took his life. And our lives changed forever that day.

Johanna: That’s such a powerful story and I’m so sorry.

Amber: Thank you. 

Bunny: I think this is a good point to take a breath. When I met you, Amber, you were really clear. I’ve had other friends who have lost family members to suicide and they say, you know, “I lost my brother.” And then there’s this awkward moment when you say, “Oh, I’m so sorry. Were they ill?” But even at that moment when it had just happened, you shared the way that that died. And I thought was such a brave thing.  

But it’s so important for somebody who may have a child or a family member or a friend who’s suffering from anxiety and depression for this not to be a secret. I don’t know what that’s about. I don’t know where that strength comes from. Even telling this story is so brave. But tell me about that. I mean, to me there’s nothing about any of that that is shameful. And I think some people see it as shameful. 

And, of course, Johanna is a social worker and she worked in the school system.

Johanna: I was going to say. You probably saw my facial reaction when you were talking about how the school handled it. That just made me cringe, because I’ve been a school social worker for almost five years and I have lost students to suicide. I’ve lost a personal friend to suicide. There are clear policies and clear ways that the school is supposed to handle that. Not to derail things and go into that too much, but it did sound like they didn’t handle that well in the beginning. Suicide, it just affects everyone. I mean, it’s just hard for me to hear that. Of course, it’s a hard story to tell and hard to hear. It just takes me back to some of my experiences too. And, oh my gosh, my heart just breaks for you.

Amber: Thank you. I could go down a whole rabbit hole as to what happened with that school. I won’t. There’s a reason we moved. I didn’t want my younger son in that school system. Just in case anyone listening is from that area, I’ve heard there have been a lot of positive changes, and it’s wonderful there no. 

Johanna: Yeah . And I’ve worked for schools that did have a great policy and great people. We would work with students and sometimes it still happened. So there’s no blame that should ever be assigned. You know, a lot of guilt goes into losing someone that way. There’s just so much to it and there should never be any guilt or shame, like you’re saying. Sometimes we just don’t know the depth of what somebody’s going through.

Amber: Yeah. I think it’s really important that I back up a little bit and say that I was ashamed before he died. I was embarrassed, because of some of the things that he was telling his friends. I didn’t want to go to counseling, because “what would the neighbors think?” There’s still a stigma around mental health. But when I lost Thad, I realized how stupid that was. My God, we all need someone to talk to from time to time. Him dying made me realize how wrong I was. 

Going into a little bit of a spiritual point, the day that he died, I felt that I need that I wanted to go home. I smoked cigarettes then at the time and I didn’t want my neighbors to know, so I smoked in my backyard. I didn’t go out in the backyard. I smoked in my front yard that day. And then that night, the police were there, I very clearly heard something tell me that we couldn’t let this destroying us. And I grabbed my husband, and right then I told him that we needed to go to counseling and that we couldn’t let this destroy our marriage. And we couldn’t let this destroy Malakai. 

And there was a higher power there helping me understand and grasp what was going on that day. And I think it became very easy for me to move into prevention efforts, because it kept me from having to feel the depth of the loss. So very quickly, I started working to set up forums at the middle school and high school, because there had been between 10 and 13 suicides in our county. Thad was the youngest, but just for a few days. And we hadn’t heard anything about this. As a parent, I wanted to know that there was this problem going on at the school so that I could prepare my son. 

And so when he died, that was the first thing I told the school that I wanted to do. We need to have a chat with these parents. They need to know what’s going on. They need to know that there’s cutting happening, and they need to know where there’s support and help. And the school fought me on it, but the newspaper and the radio stationsgot involved and it happened. I’m so grateful to those folks for helping make sure that it happened. 

They wanted to talk about the suicide problem in the forums, which was of course the big thing. But the other thing that the parents needed to talk about was the bullying problem that was going on in the schools there, because almost all of the kids that died, were bullied. My son was being bullied. I had no idea the extent he was being bullied until I saw his phone. 

So I got this sense of purpose and that’s what gave me the strength to tell that story.  Because to this day, I never want anyone to know what it’s like to lose a child to suicide. 

Bunny: Yes. Losing anyone is heartbreaking, but losing your child is another thing altogether. Johanna now has a baby, so she probably feels the same way. One thing I remember my mom saying when I was diagnosed with cancer was, “I never want to outlive my children.” And so Amber, you suffered the nightmare that none of us want: to lose a child. We feel like part of our job is to keep them safe. Part of our job is to keep them healthy and well.

But you have really amazingly  turned this into an opportunity to raise awareness. I mean, you’ve honored that in the best way possible. I’m just so proud to know you and I’m blown away by the fact that you’re willing to talk to our listeners about this–about the things that you did afterwards that raised awareness and honor him. I want you to tell us a little bit about how that all works.

Amber: Okay. So probably about three months after he passed away, I started working with  a counseling center. It was an amazing opportunity. Desert View Family Counseling Services in Farmington had a trauma grant, and so my family was seen for free because we had experienced trauma. Our insurance wasn’t accepted there, and so my husband, my son, and I were still for a couple of years. And so I wanted to give back to that program. I wanted to make sure there were always funds for that.  

But on top of that, I didn’t want people to have to go through what we did. I didn’t just want to help the people after they’re loved ones were gone. I don’t want their loved ones to die. So when we started, Love for Thad, which was named after my high school friends changing their profile pictures to say “Love for Thad.” So it was the easiest thing to name what we were doing. And I had started a page immediately after he passed away, and it just kind of grew. Love for Thad has about 1800 people on that page. I have not visited it in a long time. I’m going to get back into that. 

Then with Desert View we had an event. It was a 5k called “Love for Thad.” In the four years we ran, we raised over $90,000. We were able to help something like 137 families, but I could be wrong about that. And we raised a whole lot of awareness. It grew bigger and bigger and bigger each year. Then the last year we had a wellness festival along with the 5k. We made resources available to people in the community and helped them understand what other resources there were available. 

One thing I really learned is that the biggest thing you can do to keep yourself mentally healthy is to find your people, find where you fit in, get involved with a group, whatever that might be. If you’re an artist, get together with your artist friends. You need connection; humans need connection. I really learned the importance of helping people and finding healthy outlets to get that connection. People need to find ways to help themselves feel better and be comfortable talking about their deepest, darkest concerns and worries. They need to feel like it’s safe to talk to people about their concerns.

Bunny: Well you did an exceptional job of connecting. I know that the pain of losing someone is in your life every single day. But one of the things that I find so empowering about what you do is that you’re really transparent about it. I mean, you don’t hide it. I mean, it’s so funny that you feel like you were ashamed before. It’s almost like he freed you from any of that shame. And now you’re just determined to share as frequently as possible to help other people. And I think the whole human connection piece is so important. We can’t connect with people if we’re not being real.

Amber: Yeah, absolutely. A lot of people ask me how I was able to share this story so early on. I firmly believe that you have to do what is best for you and what was coming up for me at that time was to talk about it. I had this crazy fear within me that all my friends were going to lose their kids, and I did not want that to happen. And I thought if I was transparent as possible about how it felt to lose a child it could help them. That’s transparent. There are no words in the dictionary to describe what it feels like to lose a child. They just haven’t created those words. And so I did the best I could with the words that I had to explain what it was. 

At first I did it for myself. But I also wanted to make sure it didn’t happen. And then it turned into those things. It kind of turned into this little mini movement. All of my friends started sharing their vulnerabilities and started talking about their fears and concerts. I guess my sharing gave people permission to do the same.

Bunny: Yeah. You and I talked about this when we spoke on the phone last week about being on the podcast, but I think stories save us. I had somebody here at the house last night who also had cancer. She read my book and she started crying. She said,”You know, I had no idea that your experience was like this. I was always afraid to talk about mine because it was so big.” And I think that’s what happens. People have these events that are life-changing and they keep them inside. Some of the research I’ve done is that’s part of the anatomy of shame: if something bad happens to me, that makes me a bad person. And we know that’s not true.

Amber: Right. Yeah.

Bunny: And so sharing your story is so powerful. You and I can do this. We can have this conversation. This is a conversation that can go on forever. But tell me, what’s the best advice you could give parents who have kids who are struggling?

Amber: A mentor gave me some advice before Thad passed away. It’s the advice I give to every parent, and I wish I would have taken it more seriously. And that is: do whatever it takes to keep your child alive. Don’t be embarrassed about counseling. That’s a big one. Make sure there’s not something physical going on. Take them to the doctor, have a physical done. There are all kinds of illnesses and conditions that can really affect mental health. I feel like that’s important. 

But I think one of the biggest things that has been helpful and the thing that I’m teaching Malakai is I’m really working with is mindfulness. And so we meditate in my family, there’s just something very, very powerful about meditation. We do affirmations in this house. People on the outside can think that’s a little weird, but I wear it like a badge of honor. Weird is awesome.

Bunny: Weird is awesome. That should be a hashtag. I love that.

Amber: And so it’s all about like connecting with them and talking to them. You were a kid once. You remember how hard it was when you were a kid? I think that’s important too. I think sometimes we get so angry in the moment that we don’t take the time to think about what it is that’s really upsetting them. Most often, if you’re in a disagreement with your child there’s a much more real emotion under all that. And if you can pause to get to that real emotion and then have a conversation with your child instead of screaming or telling them what they should do. Don’t should on your kids. Don’t should on them.

Bunny: That’s a great line. Don’t should on your kid.

Johanna: Yeah. I love that too. Don’t should on your kids. And I think a lot of people look at kids or adolescents and we think kids feel like everything that happens to them is like the worst thing ever, and they’re so dramatic. But you know what? That’s their reality. That’s what they’re going through.

Amber: Yes, absolutely. And if you look at child psychology, and I always have a spirituality lens, from 0 to 7 kids are just absorbing everything from their environment. And then from 7 to about 16 or 17, they’re starting to experiment and they’re trying to figure out what’s right for them. That’s something else we’ve got to realize. As long as it’s not hurting them and as long as they’re not doing anything dangerous, I feel like we should honor what our kids want to do and who they are as individuals and not try to mold them and force them into what we want them to be. And think that’s a huge mistake I made with Thad, because I didn’t want him to make the mistakes I made. But that’s not what life is about. Of course he’s going to make some of the same mistakes I did, because I’m dumb. I’m a grown-up. 

Bunny: And what would you say to somebody who’s  lost someone they love to suicide?

Amber: First of all, I’m so sorry. That’s the first thing I always say. You have an absolute right to go hide under your bed for the rest of your life, if that’s what you want to do. I want to honor that. I think it’s very important, especially with suicide.

So I guess the first is to just feel it. Allow yourself to feel the grief. Get into counseling. Really decide how you want to move forward with this. And that’s hard in the very beginning. I’m an expert on what I did and in my experience, us deciding to try to find the gratitude in what happened is what saved us. And I’ve said for many years that I’m so grateful for the experience of losing Thad because it made me the person I am today. And I’m a pretty good person. 

Bunny: You’re amazing Amber. And have you gotten some kickback for saying “I’m grateful for that experience”? It’s just like when I say “I’m grateful for the experience of having cancer,” I’m not grateful that I got cancer just like you’re not grateful that you lost Thad. But I am really grateful for the experience that I had because it took me to this brave new ending. And we are experts at our own life. Everybody is an expert at their own life. But have you gotten some really negative kickback when you say that?

Amber: Yeah. You know, I think there are people that don’t get it. You always have those that think I’m saying that means that I’m glad my son was dead. And there could be nothing further from the truth. If I hadn’t experienced that extreme loss though, I wouldn’t be the person sitting here. Some people have tried to explain it to don’t get it and that’s okay. Those aren’t my people

Bunny: Right. Hey, I’ve got to say that I’m pretty grateful for learning who my tribe is and who it isn’t. That’s important.

Amber: Yeah. Because a lof of people knew me here, I did get some pushback from the community, people who I thought knew me. And people thought I was using my son’s death to gain fame for myself. And that was really hurtful at that point in time. That would have been Thad’s senior year in high school, and I really had a hard time. I think that was the worst year for me and I was so desperate to help more people. That desperate was perceived as me wanting that attention and not desperately trying to make sure people were safe. But I learned, and that’s this whole journey.

Bunny: That’s, that’s the best thing. I mean, we’re constantly learning. So tell us what you’re doing now, because I know that you’ve found this new path and you’re giving your professional life a break so that you can do even more things to honor Thad. You and I talked about you sitting down and starting to write about it. Am I telling people too much?

Amber: No. Actually about a year and a half ago, I started a blog called Amber Is Real. I started sharing some stories about Thad and sharing some stories from my life and my childhood. I learned very quickly that there were these patterns in my life. And now I’m writing a book and I meet with a medium pretty regularly and, according to her, Thad is going to help me write this book. In fact it was Thad who suggested it first in one of our sessions. 

Bunny: That’s so exciting. It’s crazy that knowing how to feed your mindset, knowing how to change your perspective has given both you and I this entire new life that surprises me every day.

Amber: I feel like it gave me back my life force. If you don’t mind, I’m gonna rabbithole a little bit and say that I did not really, truly grieve for Thad untill his senior year. I had a breakdown. I seriously sat on my backporch and stared out into my yard for a few weeks. I didn’t do anything. I fell completely apart. It’s really important to allow yourself to feel those emotions. I didn’t want to feel it. I was scared to feel it. And I was programmed to see crying as weakness. And so I would not honor my feelings at all.  That’s so important. That was year five, only a couple of years ago. I felt like I was running on fumes. And when I finally grieved and when I finally started applying the tools that I was learning in the lessons that I had learned it absolutely changed my life. I have a beautiful life now. Those tools are important.

Bunny: I love that. Well, like I said, we could talk about this forever, but we are going to have to stop at some point, because we’re going to run out of time. But Amber, would you be willing to come back? 

Amber: Yes.

Bunny: Let’s do this again. Let’s talk about how we continue to write these brave new endings. There are other things that we can tell people about mental health that will really be helpful. I am so honored that you came and shared this with us today. I mean, every time you tell this story, you help somebody else. There is somebody out there today that needed to hear this story. So thank you so, so much.

Amber: Oh, you are so welcome. Can I say one more thing? 

Bunny: Sure. 

Amber: If anybody is struggling with a child or themselves, you are more than welcome to message me. I am more than happy to talk to you.

Bunny: Okay. And we’ll provide a link to your blog as well when we publicize this, but it’s amberisreal.com.

Okay. Well, I love you friend, take care. 

Amber: I Love you too.

Bunny: Thanks so much to Amber Hale for being here and talking with us today. This is a hard topic, but it’s really important to remember that stories save us and Amber tells her story over and over because she feels like it’s important to save families that might be about to experience the same thing that she experienced. We hope you’ve enjoyed the podcast. We’re doing this because we think–we hope–it’s helpful. We think hope is hip. We think that stories save us and we want to help everybody have a brave new ending. So be sure to subscribe to us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts and review us as often as possible. Thanks so much again for being here. We’re all about lifesaving gratitude.

Johanna: If you or anyone you know is experiencing thoughts of suicide or self-harm, you can call get the local number that we gave at the beginning. I’ll give that again. It’s +1 855-662-7474. The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline phone number is +1 800-273-8255. Please do not hesitate to reach out.