Episode Transcript

Bunny : (00:00)
Hi there. I’m Bunny Terry, and you’re listening to the I Love New Mexico podcast. Whether you’re a native new Mexican, who’s lived here for your entire life, or you’re just considering a visit, this episode is for you. Join us as we share a lot of New Mexico stories, talk about all things New Mexico, and include topics like what’s magical here, where you ought to visit, what’s happening, and the things you absolutely cannot miss in the land of Enchantment. We’re excited that you’re here, and we can’t wait to show you what an amazing place New Mexico is, because let’s face it, I love New Mexico Today on the I Love New Mexico podcast. I get to talk to a, an old friend who has been on the podcast before. She very graciously was on the Lifesaving Gratitude Podcast before we ended that, and then we got to talk on the I Love New Mexico podcast. Um, I think it was about, I, I might have been about a year ago, but my guest today is Anne Hillerman, who is, um, one of my favorite writers. And, um, Anne has a new book out, and we’re, today we’re celebrating that she’s coming to Santa Fe, back to Santa Fe for the summer, and also to do, um, an event at Collected Works on April 22nd. Um, so Anne, how I’m so excited to visit with you.

Anne : (01:41)
Well, thank you. Thank you for, uh, giving me this opportunity. Yeah, I’m really so happy that Lost Birds is almost, almost here, as you said, it comes out on April 23rd, and I feel like a new mom.

Bunny : (01:55)
I gotta tell you, your publicist sent me a digital copy of the book, and this has been a crazy week because as you know, I’m gonna be traveling next week, . And yesterday, while I was getting my hair cut, I said, oh, I, I have a book to read before morning. And so I want you to know that between three 15 yesterday and eight 15 this morning, I read the entire book, and partially I got it read because I couldn’t put it down. So once again, you created, um, a world that, um, I got completely sucked into. And but before we go there, I, I never want to assume that people who are listening to the podcast know everything about, um, us. So, so give folks a little bit of background. Anne, how did you come to, how did, how did you come to Lost Birds and to this life of writing about these wonderful characters?

Anne : (02:52)
Oh, that’s a, a wonderful question. I guess it started with my parents. I mean, I was fortunate enough to grow up in a home where reading was really valued, writing was valued. Um, my dad, as, as many people know, was the author Tony Hillerman, and he started his career in journalism. So when I was growing up, that’s what he did. So I, his love of that kind of writing really came through to me as a child. And then later he, uh, taught journalism at the University of New Mexico, and then segued into his own creative writing. And, uh, I loved reading his books, and I loved talking to him about writing. My mother also was a avid, avid reader and a very, she read with a very critical brain. So she would talk about what she was reading, both what she liked, and where she thought the author could have made things better. So I think growing up with that background really helped me. When I made the transition from nonfiction, uh, writing, I, I’d done maybe five or six nonfiction books. And then after my father died, I realized that besides missing my father, I also was, I loved those characters that he had created. And so it, the idea came to me that even though he wasn’t around to write the series, uh, perhaps since I was already a writer, even though I had never written fiction, perhaps I could, uh, see if I could write a novel. So that was kind of the, the origin of my continuation of the Jim Chi Jolie Porn, Bernadette Manto Mystery series. Uh, the book that’s, that’s out now, lost Birds is the ninth book in, in my re-envisioning of that series. And one thing that really helped me was, uh, a woman character whom my dad had created, but never really, uh, given the role of, uh, first rate Detective two. So after Dad died, I realized I didn’t know how to write, but I could never be Tony Hillerman. So it dawned on me that using this character, Bernadette Manto would give me a way to, um, continue to keep the series alive, to give it a little new twist, and also to not have to be Tony Hillerman.

Bunny : (05:19)
Uh, well, and that’s one of the things I love about the, these, the, the last nine books that’s, that you’ve written is that Bernie is such a strong character, and she, but she’s so human. She’s, you know, she’s, um, we’ve, we’ve, you know, she has a sister who has issues. She has a mother who’s aging. Um, she, she feels, she feels like my friend, and I’m always rooting for her. Um, so congratulations on creating a much deeper, richer female character, um, than we knew before. I mean, this, this is, um, I, I feel like, um, Lee Horn and she are old friends, but Bernie is, um, I’m, I’m, she’s, she’s my great friend, . That’s so funny that when we talk about characters, but now, I mean, with your dad’s books, how many, what’s the total now? Over 30?

Anne : (06:18)
Yeah, I can’t, the number isn’t exactly clear, but 35

Bunny : (06:21)
Or 36, something like that. Yeah,

Anne : (06:23)
Yeah, yeah. Nonfiction and, and nonfiction. Besides the Q porn series, he wrote two, uh, uh, standalone novels, one about journalism and one about basically Vietnam. And then he wrote a lot of nonfiction books.

Bunny : (06:38)
Well, so that folks who have not listened before know, give us some background on where the novels are are set, and what’s so different about them. I mean, first they’re mysteries, but, but the characters are different from other mysteries that we find, out in the fiction world, right?

Anne : (07:02)
Yeah, that’s right. My dad, um, when my, more than 50 years ago, my dad started this series, and his original idea was that he would have an archeologist as the main character and then a Navajo, uh, policeman as kind of the sidekick, because there are so many archeological sites on the Navajo Nation, I think. And I, when my dad wrote the, wrote The Blessing Way, his first book, I don’t think he was really considering that he would have a very long career writing all these books. He just, you know, wanted to know if he could write a, write a mystery. Uh, but anyway, the, the, the, uh, main protagonists are, uh, a, an active Navajo cop, Jim Chi, a retired Navajo policeman. Well, he’s retired since I’ve been taking the series.

Bunny : (07:51)
Yeah, you retired him .

Anne : (07:53)
I retired him. Yeah. Yeah, we’ve been thinking about it for a few books. Anyway, that’s Joe Horne, and then Bernadette Manto, who is another, uh, uh, person who works with, with the Navajo Police Force. And because my detectives are, uh, Navajo law enforcement people, at least some of the story has to be set on the Navajo Nation. So with, with Lost Birds, uh, part of the story is set on the near the, the Aya part of the, of the re of the reservation and the other, the other part. Well, and then the, there’s another part of the story, which is set at a Navajo school also on the reservation. And then the third part is kind of on and off the reservation. There’s a chase that happens. And anyway, that, that story’s a, is a little more complicated. But yeah, I figured I had to be true to the characters and true to the setting. So all of my stories are set, at least, I’d say 80% on the Navajo Nation.

Bunny : (08:56)
And having lived in Farmington and done and, and lived with a woman who was, um, Navajo, I recognize a lot of your, um, landscape and, and, and I love it. I would say anybody who hasn’t, um, been to the Four Corners or up in that area, or to Shiprock, you, you should go tomorrow, because it’s, it’s such a stunning, it’s a surprising and stunning and really expansive landscape that you can’t understand until you see it. But a lot of, at a lot of, of junctures in the book, I would, because I didn’t know about elephant legs and I kept thinking, did she make this up? Is this real ? I would, I would, so I would switch over. I was reading it on my phone right here, because that, I, that’s how I started it when I was getting my haircut yesterday. But, I would switch over to Google and I would look up what the, either the place that you were talking about, the trading post, um, I was determined to find all those places. So, um, I want listeners to know that this is as much, uh, when you’re talking about the Navajo Nation, and when you’re talking about these characters, they live in the, I mean, the landscape is as much a character as anything else. I mean, it is, I can’t remember what, what exactly did you say? It was 25,000 square miles that they, it seems like it’s somewhere in there, um, that these, this small police force overseas, and there’s so much, so much of that that is done alone and without cell service, and that’s still very real, obviously. Right,

Anne : (10:50)
Right, right. The Navajo Nation is making a lot of progress in terms of better cell service. And the other problems, of course, have been lack of electricity and lack of running water. All of that kind of goes together. But things are, things are changing. I mean, the Navajo Nation now is not the same Navajo nation that my dad wrote about when he started the series. And it’s a challenge for me. I mean, it’s a lot easier to bring your characters front and center if they don’t have instant access to, oh, you know, say files that will tell them everything about the person they’re chasing. So I am, I am leaving, I’m maybe stretching the boundaries of realism a tiny bit to make it seem perhaps a little more isolated than it actually is in reality, just for the, uh, benefit of storytelling. And I, after all, it is fiction. So I think, I think readers are, are cool with that.

Bunny : (11:43)
You, you can do whatever you want. But, I love that Joe Lipor is now comfortable with his cell phone. sort of, it’s, it’s, um, it’s, um, it, you just are very masterful at talking, uh, at, at conveying the culture and, and some of the, um, difficulties that go with making those transitions to an old, old way and, and to a different way. But talk about lost birds. It what I’d like for the, for our listeners to know what the term lost birds means to people in the Navajo culture.

Anne : (12:28)
Well, thank you for asking that question lot. Oh, a lost bird is the term, and it’s not only used by the Navajo culture, but really by most indigenous cultures. Okay. And it refers to a child who was removed from the, the culture of birth and adopted by, uh, a family out outside of that, outside of that cultural background. So in my book, the, the Lost Bird is a woman who’s always believed that she was Navajo, because that’s what her appearance is like. And because she has an old picture that that shows her near elephant feet, which I use in my book with a, uh, Navajo weaving that was like a traditional child’s blanket. So she’s thinking, why would my adoptive mother have saved this picture if I’m really not Navajo? But her, both of her adoptive parents are dead. She never talked to them about it much, and she was adopted in the age when the records were closed.

Anne : (13:30)
So that’s why she contacts Joe Por, Joe Por now is a private detective, and she’s thinking, maybe Joe, because he’s Navajo, because he has a lot of deep contacts on the Navajo Nation, maybe he can help her solve this puzzle. So anyway, that, that’s, that’s what the term, uh, lost birds means. And the idea came to me because when I was, um, when I was finishing up the book before this, the Way of the Bear, there was a lot of talk about the, uh, uh, the law that, uh, limits or tries to limit adoption of native children to people who are in the tribe, either, you know, relatives or distant relatives. So there’s some way that they can keep their culture. And there were some lawsuits challenging this act, saying that it was, uh, racially discriminatory against other people who wanted to adopt these children. And it’s a really interesting case. I mean, there were some kids who’d been raised by non-native foster parents, and these foster parents were very loving, but no matter how loving they were, they didn’t have the, the cultural, uh, cultural connections to help these children also understand that they were Navajo or Pueblo or whatever other, uh, indigenous tribe they may have come from. Anyway, the, the lawsuit worked its way all up to the up, all the way to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court ruled that yes, the Native Child Adoption Act was solid and, and could stand. So all of that was going on while I was thinking of what could my next story be. So that kind of gave me, gave me the idea for writing about somebody who was caught in this, in this problem, and how Jolie Porn could help her work her way through it.

Bunny : (15:17)
Yeah, I read a nonfiction book recently about a woman who lived in New Jersey and discovered that she was a, you know, and she was the age that I am. So she was born in nineteen sixty, nineteen sixty two, and she discovered that she was born, um, at a hospital, um, just outside the Navajo Nation in Arizona. And that she was, um, basically sold out to a family of a different, different culture. So I, it’s, it’s an interesting, um, and, and it’s a timely topic for you to write about. So it was really in, I read that case just not very long ago. I read the outcome, so I was very interested, but tell we can’t give anything away. You’re gonna have to buy the book. Um, I will say that I just wanna give a plug, and I hope that it’s okay with you. I, but one of my favorite series on TV now is Dark Wind, which I feel is I have everybody talking I have I recommend it to everybody. And, um, it is a television adaptation of the stories that you and your dad have told about these three characters. Right,

Anne : (16:37)
Right. That’s right. I’m glad you mentioned Dark Wind. I don’t know if you, uh, know, but Dark Wins is up for a big award. The last script for season two has been nominated for what’s called an Edgar Award, which is given by the Mystery Writers of America. And it’s like in the mystery world, it’s like the, the Oscar, the Emmy, whatever. Wow. And that script is one of only five nominees. So, you know, if you think of how many stories are told on television, I think just being honored is really remarkable. But the award will be given on May 1st in New York, and I have not been to New York for ages, but I’m gonna go and root for dark wins. And even if it doesn’t win, it’s just such a really, such a deep honor for the series to be, to be, uh, recognized in this way.

Bunny : (17:28)
That is so interesting. I love that. Thank you. And you, and it is wonderful television, and I will say, um, and I’ve spent less ti less time in the Navajo Nation than you have, but I do feel like it’s very true, very authentic, and I love that, um, um, the, in fact, the director lives next door to me, so I’m now you’ve inspired me to ask him to be on the podcast so that we can talk about the award. But that’s, um, they’re doing an exceptional job. And, um, I, I love the cast. I was sitting down at the Plaza Cafe the other day and Z McLaren and walked up and looked at the menu, and Toby said, don’t look, don’t look. It’s, don’t look, but it’s Joe Leaphorn . I was like, that’s so fun.

Anne : (18:17)
Yeah, they just started filming, uh, a few weeks ago, and they’re filming out at the, I don’t know if I should say this. Anyway, they’re filming in the Santa Fe area, and I think some of it’s gonna be, is also going to be on the, on the Navajo Nation. So that’s so

Bunny : (18:31)
Cool.

Anne : (18:31)
And there, yeah it’s really, really great. I think my father would, would be happy. I thought it was, uh, clever and appropriate that they sat the series back in the 1970s, which was when the Leap Horn series first began. And they’ve made a lot of interesting changes. I know I get email from people who are, uh, avid Hillerman fans, and they’re upset because something is different than it is in the books. But, you know, it’s all it’s good entertainment, and I really, I really recommend it, and I’m just delighted to be able to see these characters come to life.

Bunny : (19:10)
Me too. Because, um, of course, this is what happens when, when you have read books for years, you have those characters in your head, and then they show up on the screen, and I’m like, that’s, that’s okay. These are good, these are good choices. This is good casting. Um, but, um, tell us about the, tell us where you’re gonna be, um, as the book is released. Where can people find you?

Anne : (19:37)
Oh my goodness. Uh, I should have had my schedule in front of me after I’m doing the, after I do the, uh, book launch at Collected Works, then I’m gonna be signing some books for Opposite, and then I’m, I’m also going up to Taos to meet with them. All of this is on my, on my website, so people are really curious. It’s just ann hillerman.com real easy. But then I’m going up to Taos, they have a mystery book club up there, and they’ve invited me to come up and have lunch with them. And so I’ll be doing some signing up there. I’m doing a bunch of signings in Albuquerque. I’m going to Farmington. I’m gonna do a, a signing and event at the Farmington Public Library. Oh, I love that. Oh, let me see what else. And then I’m going, I’m going to a big mystery conference in the Washington DC area, actually right after my, my book signing and collected works. And then I’m going to New York for that, um, Edgar event. And then I’m doing a, a signing in Durango. I’m going up to, uh, Crested Butte, Colorado. They have an event called, uh, mountain of Words, and I’m gonna be part of that as is Hampton Sides, another of our wonderful Santa Fe authors. Oh, and I, when you, going back just a little bit, when you were talking about Dark Winds, the first character who played Joe Lipor was Wes Stu, and I don’t know if you remember That’s right. But they made some, they made some PBS movies, and I, Wes was a very good Joe Lipor too. Yes, I think Z is is wonderful, but Wes was good too. And, I like all, I like everybody on, on the cast of Dark Winds, but I think, I think Zan particularly just, he’s got that kind of, um, smart restrained attitude that I think was really the way, the way that readers envision Joe Lepor.

Bunny : (21:25)
Yes. And I’m just gonna give a shout out to Harry’s Roadhouse because I took some clients there for lunch the other day, and my client sat down and she, it’s, it may have been longer than a few days ago, but she sat down and she looked behind me and she said, I think that’s a movie star behind you. And I said, is it West Stuy? ’cause I see him there all the time. And it was, but , that’s part of the magic of living in Santa Fe, is that you can impress your clients with the movie Star at the next table. But, um, and,

Anne : (21:58)
And you the movie star, you don’t, you don’t have to go over and ask for their autograph.

Bunny : (22:02)
No, you can just treat them

Anne : (22:04)
Like regular people.

Bunny : (22:05)
Yeah. They’re just regular people eating their lunch. Let’s, let’s let them do that. But, um, it’s so, I, I just love that, um, your books and your dad’s books are getting this recognition. I, you know, I had Doug Preston on the podcast about four, four or five weeks ago, and he said that, um, there was a pender perhaps, hopefully a Pendergast series coming. So I love that my, um, Santa Fe writer friends are getting so much, um, recognition and some TV airtime. What, what a cool thing.

Anne : (22:44)
Yeah, it’s really wonderful. I think it, it says a lot about how Santa Fe really respects and nurtures creative, creative people and how it’s okay to be a little different in Santa Fe and not be, not, not be given some of those looks that you might get if you were in, uh, I won’t, I won’t denigrate any place else, but yeah. You know, you know what I, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bunny : (23:07)
Yes. Yeah. So I wanna

Anne : (23:09)
Say something else about Dark Winds if you, if you could give me another minute or two.

Bunny : (23:14)
Absolutely.

Anne : (23:16)
One thing that I really loved about writing this book, the other woman character who my, well, who my dad created and never really fully explored was Louisa who is Joe LeapHorne’s housemate, good friend. Maybe more than that, at any rate, in, in, because, uh, uh, the book that I, that I’m, because Dark Winds was a Jo Lipor book, it also gave me a wonderful opportunity to, to think a little more about Louisa and about who she is and what her life is like. And it’s, I think one of the joy of doing any creative work is that you get to explore new territory with every new project. And so getting to know Louisa was another, um, another challenge for me, but also another real opportunity to go a little bit deeper into these characters and into this series. And I put Louisa at some pretty serious risk in this book. You did. But yeah. But anyway, as, as, uh, most series readers will know, if you have long-term characters, you kind of have to work ’em through it. But anyway, I hope that when readers, uh, come to lost words, they will have, have a, a new understanding of Louisa and maybe a little more affection for her. I think my dad kind of saw her as kind of a very, you know, all business kind of woman, but I’ve sort of, sort of been able to ex explore her softer side in lost Birds.

Bunny : (24:49)
I have to ask you, do these people live in your head all the time, or are you able to, um, set them aside for a, a few weeks after you meet your deadline? I mean, it seems to me like I would, like you would wake up with, um, you know, Bernie talking in your ear. I’m curious about that.

Anne : (25:07)
Yeah, they’re there all the time. Yesterday, my husband and I were going for a walk and, and he was talking about something and I interrupted him. I said, oh, wait, I just have a great idea, . I have a great, I had a great idea for how can I can add more tension in this book I’m working on. He gave me this look. I, oh, are you listening to me at all? Well, part of my brain was, but yeah, you’re right. And the, the book I’m working on now is due the middle of June, and it’s just been, it’s, I really like it now, but there were times where I could barely stand to work on it ’cause it was just such a struggle. But anyway, yeah, those, and even when I’m not actually writing, then I’m thinking of revision or I’m thinking of the next project. So yeah, they’re there. They’re, I think sometimes I feel closer to these characters than I do to sing my own grandchildren. I hate to, don’t tell them I said that, but , but they’re with me, they’re with me more, more often. I don’t get to, they’re, I don’t get to see ’em on Zoom, though. So that’s a, that’s a

Bunny : (26:06)
. And just for the, for the writers, because this is, this has always been my favorite part of conversations is do you, um, you know, I know I heard Anne Patchett in an interview, and I’ve followed her a lot, and she said, oh, those characters live in my head for months before I ever even sit down to start writing. I, and I’m curious, whether you, do you create an outline and then they fill it in, or do they live in there and talk to you and, and create the story in your head? I’m curious about that process.

Anne : (26:37)
Oh, you know I always said that I didn’t create an outline. And then somebody said to me, well, your rough, your first draft is like an outline because it’s just, it goes every way. And it’s got all of these, you know, all of these disparate parts. But I guess they do, I let the story unfold as the characters are, are in the, in the, in the process of, of having whatever adventure I’m writing about. And sometimes as it’s unfolding, it goes in a cul-de-sac, and then it’s, it’s like . They just keep going around and around, and I have to figure out how to move them, move them back onto the main thoroughfare and get them going. Uh, I really admire people who can write from outlines. I think that would be a much more efficient process. But part of the reason I love writing these stories is that then I get to know what happens at the end . And I think if I did an outline, , this sounds funny, but I think if I did an outline and I knew how the story worked out, I wouldn’t have as much incentive to really write it. So, I don’t know. It’s, that’s, that’s a really, I’m, I’m still kind of struggling with that question, and I’m trying to figure out a, um, more efficient and less, um, heart-rending way to write these books without having them take over my whole life for months on end. But maybe that’s just how it works. I mean, maybe that’s part of the, part of how creativity, uh, comes to, comes to fruition, is just giving it, giving it its its own time to let the roots go down so then the Sprout can, can come up.

Bunny : (28:11)
Well, and I will say having written, uh, a book of, having written a book myself, which was mostly from my journal, um, this is some hard work that you do. I mean, people don’t get how, what it takes, and you do this so extremely well. So I wanna, I just wanna, I want people to know, um, that you know, and not only do you write great books and keep people like up until two o’clock in the morning reading and, um, but you also, um, just speaking to you, you also are so joyous every time we get together, every time I see you. So I just wanna tell you that hats off to you for doing this so well, and, um, for having found this amazing craft that it blesses so many people in so many different ways. So thank you for doing this. Thank you for what you do.

Anne : (29:10)
Well, thank you. And I think, I think your book is wonderful. I read your book and I think you yourself are a fine writer. And, uh, anyway, I’m, I’m always honored to have a chance to talk to

Bunny : (29:22)
You. Well, I am so sorry that I’m not gonna be here for your event at Collected Works. Do you? What time in the evening is it, do you

Anne : (29:30)
It’s at 6:00 PM Oh. And I’m doing it with another Santa Fe writer, John Sanford. We’re gonna do it as an interview, so I hope everyone will come and it might be crowded ’cause it’s a small space that collected work. It is

Bunny : (29:45)
Works.

Anne : (29:46)
But John is such a wonderful writer. I’m really honored that he’s going to be joining me for that event.

Bunny : (29:52)
That will be so much fun. I’m gonna send my producer Johanna, and I can’t wait to hear how it was. So thank you so much for talking to me this morning. I can’t wait to get I’m now I’m gonna go back and read Lost Birds a little more Slowly. , not in 12 hours. , thank you for those characters. Thank you for what you do.

Anne : (30:21)
Oh, thank you. Thank you, Benny. I always enjoy talking to you.

Bunny : (30:25)
Me too, me too. Take care.

Anne : (30:27)
Thank you. Bye-Bye.

Bunny : (30:29)
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