57. Next Level Gratitude: Emily Sander Returns

Bunny: (00:09)
Today I have the incredible pleasure of inviting Emily Sander back. She was our guest back in February, and we talked about her book, Hacking Executive Leadership. And Emily, this is one of the most practical books I’ve read in a long time. You know, I read a lot of stuff that’s conceptual and yet at the end of every chapter, you give us a follow up and you ask questions. And then at the end of the book, you have a whole list of questions and ideas. Action, and when we talked about this last time, you said, um, hacking is not see if I get this right. Hacking is not trying to find a shortcut. It is what, tell us what, what you said hacking was.

Emily: (01:00)
Yeah, exactly. It’s, it’s going into your code, so to speak. So the visual I always have is the movie matrix and Neo how he can see his world and he can see what it’s made up of and he can hack into that. So in that same way, we all can hack into the code of our leadership and of our lives. And just because something is presented to us, doesn’t mean that’s the way it is. We can make that what we want, or build or create what we want it to be. And so that’s what I mean by hacking, you can really shape your leadership shape, your leadership style, shape, the person that you are and how you interact with other people.

Bunny: (01:37)
Well, I just, for people who didn’t listen to the first episode, I’m gonna read the tagline. I love this tagline from your book. It’s called hacking executive leadership, but then the tagline is, or the, the subtitle is how to go from insecure, indecisive, and overloaded to confident, influential, and effective. And I don’t know of anybody who gets themself into the position of being a leader. And that can mean anything that can mean in a, you know, a huge corporation, a small business, a nonprofit, and, you know, even on a committee, I, you know, or if you’re in the world, you’re called on, I believe to be a leader in some way. You know, if you’re, whether you’re, you know, leading a mom group of, of a playgroup or you are leading, you know, Nabisco or general foods, whatever it is you are given the opportunity to be a leader at some point.

Bunny: (02:37)
So we talked to Emily back on February 22nd, and I’m gonna suggest to everybody that they go back and take a look. We entitled that podcast episode hacking leadership and gratitude because we do gratitude very well on this podcast. And Emily is really an expert on hacking. And I just wanna read a few gems. I went back and listened to the podcast again in the last couple of days. And I’m just gonna give you, give our listeners a few gems, because I really want to entice everyone to go back and listen to that one either before or after they listen to this one. But some of the things that Emily said is that comparison is the thief of joy. Looking at failure as an old friend, who’s actually going to help you is a great strategy. Failure is a reflection of something that happened. It doesn’t define who you are, look for the smallest win, which is also in the book, learn to sizzle. I’m not gonna tell you what it is. You’ve gotta read the book and listen to the podcast. And every time you say, no, you buy freedom for yourself. And it was good for me to listen to that again, because I’m really it’s something I struggle with. I think it’s worldwide, but especially from people who consider themselves givers, you, you don’t have to give everybody yourself away. You can choose. And so please take, go back and take a look at that podcast, because Emily is really good at dissecting leadership and life and success and ways to become your most effective best self. But I, before we begin the new piece, which is the second part of the book, Emily, tell us anything that’s new in your life. Something exciting. That’s happened since we last talk.

Emily: (04:31)
Yeah. I mean, you and I were talking just be before we recorded. And I was just saying, I’ve been very grateful and blessed to have some new coaching clients come into my life. And it’s always so exciting to meet. Just, I get to meet interesting dynamic driven people from all walks of, of life from the business world, but people I never would’ve met under different circumstances. And so I always reflect on, oh my gosh, I get to work with these types of people. So, that’s just a surge of encouragement and motivation, whatever that happens. And then just, cuz it was recent. I was talking to my nephew and he’s a pilot and he just got this new license or new test and he passed it and he was trying to tell me about it. And I was like, Oliver, like what exactly does this mean? And he was so happy in that like boy, like giddy boy, you know, dude kind of way. And I was just like, oh, I remember this kid playing with toy planes. And now this man is flying them. And I was just really grateful of, um, you know, him passing the test and being able to share that moment and just hearing him say, I get to fly big planes.

Bunny: (05:40)
So you told a story about that nephew in your book. It was one of the stories you used to illustrate a point I’d love for you to, to let our listeners know what the story is about that crazy nephew.

Emily: (05:51)
I did. Yes. That’s a good, good memory. So, my adventurous nephew Oliver, he knew he wanted to be a pilot. He’s known that from this little kid and he knew he wanted to go to Alaska. And so without having a job or having a place to stay, he drove up there and he made away from himself and he got into the company he wanted to, and he got into the program. He wanted to just by kind of sheer willpower and being in the right place in the right time, putting himself in the right place at the right time. So and now he has done well in that role and has got enough hours to take this big certification and exam. And now he can fly bigger planes or big planes. So

Bunny: (06:34)
That’s I love that. I love that story. I know I sound like gushing fan-girl, but I just wanna tell people if you, first of all, you wrote a fun book. It’s not usually leadership books are not fun to read, but it was a fun book to read. You use really great illustrations. And I before we jump into talking about part two, I want, I want to read our listeners the last paragraph in your book, because I think this is is really important. And Emily says you can become the leader. You want to be, you can step up and rise to the occasion, do the work because small wins add up faster than you think time will pass. Anyway, who do you wanna be in a week, a month in a year start today, it will be worth it. I think that we tend to forget that piece time is gonna pass anyway. It’s, you’re gonna get to, you know, whatever your next stage is. I’m gonna get to 62 anyway, why not be between now and then exactly who I wanna be start with, whatever it is that your dream is and start developing the skills. That’ll get you where you wanna be. So Emily, I wanna jump into part two, which is all you call it, business lessons and applications. And you, you did. I think it’s three chapters there where you talk about the nuts and bolts of putting together the pieces that we learned in the first half. And in, in chapter five, you talked about decision making and how sometimes decisions aren’t clear cut. And you say sometimes you just have to pick the least bad option. Talk, talk to me about leadership and decision making.

Emily: (08:27)
Sure. So the context of that statement was oftentimes business leaders and I’m sure other leaders, they don’t have a clear cut decision. It’s not like the easy decisions come across their desk. It’s the really complex, hard ones where you’re gonna make one call and a group of people are gonna be unhappy, or you’re gonna put this at risk. And so understanding that that is gonna be a reality is probably step one, just accepting, Hey, I’m gonna to make really tough decisions on limited information with limited time. And that’s just something I’m gonna need to get used to. The second thing to keep in mind is decision making is a skill. It’s a skill that you can develop, like anything else. So looking at it from that frame of mind is helpful as well. But yes I think, you know, you think of a president of a company or a president of a country by the time a problem, an issue or a decision comes across their desk. 12 really smart people have tried to solve that before him or her. And so by the time it gets to you, you have a really tough decision. And sometimes it is which one of these is the least bad choice I can make.

Bunny: (09:37)
Wow, that’s so interesting because I, as the board chair of the cancer foundation, we’re in the midst of making some decisions and it’s true. Other people have already looked at them and now we’re at the point where I have to think what, what I’m, you know, and on occasion, I am what you described. I mean, I think of it, you don’t use these words, but I’m sort of a knee-jerk decision maker. And I think it’s not just that that’s my personality. I mean, it’s sort of like when the problem presents itself or, you know, like when I have a fight with my husband or something, I want it to be resolved in the first 30 seconds. And he, he wants to mull it over for about four days and it makes me crazy. And you, you talk about those different personalities, personalities in terms of decision making. And I have to really pull myself back, even when we’re in a board meeting and people are talking about mulling things over, I wanna make a decision. I wanna make really split second decisions, which is not the, not always the best way to do that. But talk about those two personality types in terms of business and leadership.

Emily: (10:49)
Yeah, definitely. So one way to get better at decision making is understanding your decision making bias. So it sounds like you kind of on one end of the spectrum, is this knee jerk or emotional, reaction or response, and that’s on this end. And then if you swing to the other end, you might have someone who likes to think about things mull things over, make a spreadsheet, color, code, the spreadsheet, talk to 12 people and still not actually do anything. They get into analysis paralysis. And so knowing where you are on the spectrum is step number one. And then number two is saying, okay, what kind of decision am I making? And in my book, I reference you know, if it’s an irreversible decision error on the side of taking more time with it, and if it’s reversible, then you might be quicker to action because you can always change that. And I think that’s from James clear. So I wanna give credit where credits do, but that’s a, that’s a great thing to keep in mind. So what is my decision making bias? You know, what is my tendency be self-aware in that way and then say, okay, what situation am I gonna apply this to and try to, and try to match those two things.

Bunny: (11:57)
Well, when you talk about perfect being the enemy of good talk, tell us what that means.

Emily: (12:03)
Yeah. I have a healthy streak of perfectionism in me. I think a lot of people do and like anything else, it’s a double edged sword. It serves, it can serve you very well in a lot of situations to motivate you, make you driven, uh, have high quality results, person of excellence, all these things on the flip side, it can, it can go too far and become a negative and it can hold you back from getting things done or having good enough be good enough, which for the longest time for me was a cop out. If I heard good enough, that’s, you know, halfway done, that’s just shotty work. That’s low quality, nothing I wanna be associated with. But if you think about it in its definition is it’s good enough. It gets the job done. And so sometimes you need to move the ball forward or put things in play and take action versus making it perfect.

Emily: (13:01)
And there is a tipping point where you get past the point of diminishing returns. So for instance, if you’re gonna spend an extra four hours on a project or a task, is, is that change and is that incremental progress in those last four hours worth it? Or is that just, you know, the, the minutia and detail that no, one’s gonna really notice and it’s not gonna move the needle. So you need to balance yourself of, Hey, I wanna do good work, but I don’t wanna go so far as to, wasting time and wasting my energy and preventing action from being taken and preventing progress from being made.

Bunny: (13:40)
And this is, I’m gonna move off topic for just a little bit, but this still is a leader’s, this is a real dilemma for leaders. I learned the hard, you know, I always it’s hard. I mean, one of the, one of the tricks of becoming a leader is learning how to let go of the idea of perfection in all aspects of your business. And I had a coach when I was running a real estate team, and I would say, but, you know, I mean, I have two people on my team who could do this, but they can’t do it as well as me. And he finally said, Bunny, two people doing you at 70% actually equals 140%. You have to figure out at some point that you have to let go of perfection in all areas, if you’re ever gonna get anything done at a high level. I thought that was a really important thing for me to learn was that sometimes you gotta let other people, I mean, that’s a huge part of being a leader is learning to delegate and not expecting everything to be done exactly the same, the same way that you would do it. Do you find that, do you hear that from your coaching clients?

Emily: (14:56)
Absolutely. Absolutely. Delegation is a huge, is a huge topic. And what you said, I can do it better. Emily. I hear that all the time. And my response is, yes, you probably can. But the right answer is to have that other person do it for a myriad of reasons. It could be, Hey, the task you’re talking about 12 other people could do, and you can only do something else. You can only approve the budget or do these performance reviews or make this higher level decision. You shouldn’t be spending your time on these, on this thing that 12 other people can do. You need to be spending your time on what your position and role allows you to do and only you to do. And a second piece of that is oftentimes people will find a different and or better way to do something than you do. And too, early in my career, I would always be defensive and find that threatening when like, oh my gosh, like John does that better than me. And I’m his boss. So I should be the best at everything. And now when I get a scenario like that, where, oh, Brian like found a better way to do that he’s more efficient. That’s, you know, more creative. I celebrate that cuz he’s on my team and it’s making my team better. And it’s of course making him look good, but it’s making, you know, me look good in that sense too. So I find it exciting to, to delegate things.

Bunny: (16:15)
Well back to the book. So that’s so helpful because that’s such a, I mean, it’s just like saying no, it’s also, it’s, it’s hard. It’s hard for me to say yes to people taking over work that I had done traditionally. And yet I, it’s also a great service to them. We just did a podcast with somebody who talked about mentors. I mean, she really, we came in thinking we were gonna talk about something different and she talked about mentors and I thought, when we don’t give up some, when we don’t learn to delegate, we tend to not be very good mentors.

Emily: (16:51)
So yeah, that’s a great point. And one more thing, cuz that just sparks something in me, uh, delegating something is an opportunity for someone else to shine. You’re giving them trust and you’re giving them a platform to step up and show what they can do. And oftentimes people aren’t saying, oh, she’s just giving me more work. Like, okay, great. I have more on my plate. It’s no, she’s trusting me with that. I get to stretch myself a little bit and do a new project. And so I think delegation done in that way can be a very positive thing. Both the person for you, for you and for the person that you’re delegating to. So I think that’s, that’s a great point.

Bunny: (17:26)
That’s so exciting. Well talk about having a bias towards just towards done. What do you mean by that?

Emily: (17:32)
Yeah, so I have a story. So earlier in my career I remember, staying late to work on a presentation and I of course wanted it to be perfect. And I remember I said, I wanted this to be impressively good. And so was spending hours like manually moving the lines of an org chart for some reason the smart art wasn’t working or whatever. And I was like moving each little box and line of it. Oh, I’ve done that, that before. Yes. And but to like the enth degree Bunny to like the half a pixel and I wanted it to be perfect and I probably spent hours and then I thought Emily, no one in that meeting is gonna be like, who put together this PowerPoint? Like that’s a half pixel off . Um and I was like, you just wasted, you just spent like four hours doing this and it was nighttime and it was dark and no one else was in the office and I’m like, I will never be able to get this time back. And so that is a clear cut case of like have a bias towards done. The PowerPoint is done. The content is there it’s you can tell it’s an org chart, whatever. Um, and so it kind of is a pair with don’t let perfect or perfect should be the enemy of good it’s have a bias toward done move the ball forward put things in play. So that story always comes to mind. When I talk about that.

Bunny: (18:50)
I love that. Okay. Well, here’s one of my favorites that you talk about is protecting the asset. What what’s the asset? What does that mean?

Emily: (18:59)
Protect the asset and the asset is you. And, this is such a huge topic right now and it’s evolving self care. So it’s taking care of yourself, putting yourself in best position to lead, putting yourself in positions to make high quality decisions. And a lot of people retort. And I can hear your listeners say, look, Emily, I have so much to do. And so many people are counting on me and I often hear from business leaders that I work with who have just gotten into a new job, oh, I have to work harder. Now I have to prove myself. I have whole teams that are counting on me. I have to look good. And I say, yes, you know, you do have to step up. And you need to put yourself in best position to lead. And let me give you two examples. If you had person one who hasn’t slept more than four hours a night in the last six months who is double-fisting coffee, who is bleary-eyed and hasn’t seen outside for weeks and weeks and weeks, um, and that’s person, one person, two is someone who, you know, works hard, sleeps well, does hobbies, you know, does things that recharge and rejuvenate them and are well rounded and vibrant and exuberant and all those things. That’s person two. If someone had to make a decision that was gonna impact your career, your livelihood, and therefore your family, which person would you like making that call? And most people are like, oh my goodness, like person two, please, person two. And of course that’s the answer. And so understand you as a business leader or you as just someone leading yourself or your family or your community that you need to put yourself in best position to lead. And you need to do the things to take care of yourself so that you can take care of others. And so that you can serve them better and be at your best. A lot of times people are trying to do the right thing and they’re trying to be at their best, but they’re showing up at their worst. And so make sure that you are protecting the asset and the asset is you and that carries over into your interactions and your service of other people.

Bunny: (21:10)
You know, that’s so interesting because long ago I was a single mom and when Johanna, who’s my assistant and my producer, but also my daughter was little. I also had a job as a paralegal. So I was really frazzled, but I read a parenting expert called John Rosemont. And John Rosemont is a little controversial because he’s kind of old school like you don’t have to be nice to your kids every day. You just have to teach them how to be, you have to love them and take care of them, but you have to teach them how to be good citizens and how to take care of themselves as adults. And he said, especially to single parents, he said, you have to treat yourself as though you’re a distributor. You’re a distributor of goods.

Bunny: (21:58)
And if your storehouse over here that provides you with all the, you know, you’ve got a warehouse out there in the country, that’s getting filled up with product. If that isn’t well stocked, then you got nothing else to distribute to the people in your life. And I, you know, I took that to heart at that time because I thought, you know, if I don’t have some time of my own, if I don’t have some, you know, if I don’t get to read a book on occasion, if I don’t say no to the laundry, if I don’t say no to perfection, which was pretty easy at that point. But I learned at that point that if I was diminished, if my supplies were diminished, then the way that I dealt with the people in my life was gonna be diminished as well. It’s a hard thing to learn because we’re taught that if you just move faster and move harder and, um, you know, it’s just, it’s just sort of the Puritan way. Just keep working harder and faster and longer. And eventually you’ll get the cheese. But it’s not true.

Emily: (23:05)
Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, caffeine and willpower, that was my motto for a long time. And that got me through so far, but then you kind of hit a brick wall. So caffeine and willpower will get you so far, but not all the way. And when you were talking, it brought up, uh, a common objection, which is Emily. I can’t be that selfish. I can’t be that selfish take the time like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that’s not selfish. You know, you’re actually putting, you know, serving other people think about an interaction you have with someone who’s like, I, I didn’t get sleep. I’m super stressed. Like it’s very short, they’re a little bit cutting remarks and things like this versus someone who’s, you know, in, in good spirits and in their element that that interaction is much different.

Bunny: (23:47)
Oh, it’s so hard when you’re managed by somebody who’s in that crazy mode, you know, it’s, that’s so difficult and it’s not a great way, but I really like the pro tip that you, you, cuz you put these pro tips throughout your book and you said some people don’t like the term self-care so think instead of it as priming or turbo charging yourself, I think when you say use the word self-care people think, oh, she thinks I should take a spa day. something

Emily: (24:17)
Mm-hmm soft. Yeah. Yeah.

Bunny: (24:20)
Yeah. So, thank you for that reminder. I also, really liked the chapter on your team because you are anybody who’s in leadership is going to have a team of people that they’re leading in some way. And you talk early, early in that chapter, you talk about attitude versus um, oh my gosh. Aptitude…

Emily: (24:48)
Aptitude. Yeah.

Bunny: (24:49)
Talk about that. What do you mean by that?

Emily: (24:51)
Sure. So those are, I talk about this for recruiting and then also assessing your existing teams. So these are two buckets. You have aptitude and attitude are the two main buckets that you wanna look for. So aptitude, that’s the hard skills you need for the job. So if you’re in finance, you might need a CPA certification. If you’re a programmer, a coder, you might need to know, you know, C-sharp or whatever it is. Attitude are the quote-unquote soft skills. And those are things like is she a team player or when there’s a group project, do people wanna work with him or do they cringe when they have to work with this person? And so those are the two big buckets and a lot of the information you’re getting in the recruiting and hiring process and also just managing an existing team.

Emily: (25:36)
You can divvy up into these two buckets and say, okay, where is this candidate? Where is this team member in these, in these two categories? And it’s just a good way to keep those in mind. You want someone who excels and exceeds in both that’s your top performer. That’s, you know a plus star performer who is high in aptitude in the hard skills and also has a great attitude. And then sometimes you’ll have, you know a deficit in one and meeting the threshold in the other. And sometimes you’ll have a deficit in both, which is poor performer or a under-performer who perhaps might need more training or, um, you know, different, different things explained to them, um, or they might need to be transitioned into a different department or out of the organization at the worst-case scenario. So aptitude attitude are the two big buckets. You can use, you can use there.

Bunny: (26:30)
I have a, I mean, I’m really interested in, I sent you a question and said, you know if you were choosing, one or the other aptitude, but with more, you know, you’ve got a hot shot who is really, really, really skilled, you know, comes with high recommendations in terms of skill, but has, um, not a great attitude or you have somebody who’s, has a great attitude, but lacking in skills. What’s your, how do you make the choice?

Emily: (27:09)
I take attitude, that’s my preference. I will take a good attitude and a good team player. Someone who’s driven and to win it, those types of attributes over the hard skills. And I say that because I can teach someone hard skills or I can get them training to learn those things. I can’t train some of these X-Factor things. I can’t train common sense or being proactive or, um, you know, being motivated and driven. And self-sufficient, those are, those are kind of the XFactor where if I get that, I will take that in a second and I’ll train to the rest.

Bunny: (27:43)
I tend to agree. We just did a new hire at the, at the foundation. And there, there was this real, um, you know, when you’re, when you’re talking to executive director candidates, there are a lot of people who have a lot of skills in, in the nonprofit sector. And, you know, luckily we were able to hire somebody who had exceptional skills, but we interviewed other people that had exceptional skills. And in that, and this is, I mean, I think this is, this is invaluable information for somebody who’s out there looking, um, we ended up making a choice because it was clear that in terms of being a team player and, um, just having a, an in it to win it, attitude really tipped the skills in their favor. And, and we were right. I mean, that was, we made exactly the right how right hire. And yet you, you also, at the end of this chapter, speak about the complainer and I’m like, I don’t think you can fix complaining. Can you, if you have a complainer on the team.

Emily: (28:48)
Yeah. I mean, if that’s in someone’s makeup, then it’s real hard to extract that, but I mean, you can bring up a great point. That part of the attitude bucket is just fit and I mean, team fit or culture fit. And that can be, you know, you could have a perfectly qualified candidate, um, and a perfectly good company and they just might not be the right fit. And that’s not a knock on either one is just not a good fit. So I love, um, the fact that you guys were betting for that and taking that into consideration.

Bunny: (29:18)
I’m gonna tell you, I don’t know that we were taking it into consideration in the beginning. You know, we were just, so we were in a pickle and we were in this place where we really, really needed help. And then it became clear that the hard part of this decision was gonna be not who was, who had the qualifications, but, but who, who would be the best fit for an organization that does what we do and you’re right. It had to be, I mean, they had to be in the right seat on the bus. And, um, a and, and you, you talk about that too, about whether people, you know, lots of times, um, you know, you’ll hire people and you’ll think they’re perfect for one spot. And, yet you have to figure out, I mean, you, you, that’s a great story that you tell about the woman who was doing the projects for you and you had to learn her motivation. Talk about that. That’s a really cool piece in the book.

Emily: (30:18)
Yeah. Yeah, certainly. So I think one decision is, do I bring this person into the company at all or into the team at all, right. And then what position are they within that group? And so, uh, yeah, I’ve had numerous examples. I think the one you’re thinking of is this person was in an entry level role and they were doing this kind of data analysis piece. And I thought, oh my gosh, like, she’s overqualified for that. And she’d love a promotion and she’d love, you know, me, me to move her over here. And so I got that all sorted out, got it approved by the boss, got the budgets signed up. And I went to tell her, and she was like, if you move me to that position, I’m gonna quit. And I was like, what? Like, hold on. I was expecting a thank you. And like, oh my gosh, Emily are so cool. And da, da, da. And I kind of was like, oh, okay, I’m sorry. Like, can you tell me why? And throughout the conversation I learned, she said , her parents had died in an accident. She had money that wasn’t a concern. She wanted to work on that data analytics project because that’s, what’s interested her. And so I assumed that she would want a different position for higher pay. And at the time that seemed perfectly logical to me. I would be motivated by that, but for her, she was motivated by something else and she came to work for something else. And so that was a huge lesson of mine that don’t assume that other people’s motivations are the same as yours and you to check in with.

Bunny: (31:45)
That’s really that’s… That was an eyeopener for me too, because I tend to think everybody everybody’s on this ladder. Everybody wants to go in a specific direction, which is up. And, you’re right. I mean, we’re told not to assume in life, but I didn’t, you know, I didn’t think about it in terms of dealing with hires. And I think I’ve been doing that, with someone. So I really wanna, I like the idea. I mean, do you advocate for sitting down with everybody and figuring out what their motivation is if they’re on your team?

Emily: (32:20)
Yeah. I mean, a lot of people will tell you if they ask some people hold it close to the chest. So I would advocate, um, being curious and interested about this and figuring this out in the best way you can, sometimes it’s, it’s as easy as asking someone and they’ll tell you kind of, you know, in a one on one, you know, weekly sit down or just like a more casual conversation. But just learning about what this job means to them. And sometimes you can ask that direct question, like, what does this job mean to you? Oh, I’m, you know, going to school, I’m studying for this, this is my job for the next four years. And then I wanna go be a firefighter or whatever it is. And you’re like, okay, that’s great. Like, I understand why you’re here. If it’s no, I love the mission of this company. Like I wanna learn as much as I can about this industry. I wanna become an expert in it. Okay. That’s a different trajectory, good information. And it can go on and on. So it can be, Hey, I love working with the people. Um, so the culture is really important to me and, and making sure we have a team culture and a company culture that’s, uh, as inviting and welcoming and friendly and collaborative as it is today is really important to me. So again, another good thing to keep in mind if those things start to change.

Bunny: (33:29)
And can we take, I wanna take just a minute and talk about, this is something that I struggle with as a leader is, um, figuring out and conveying the culture, um, to people. I mean, it seems to me, you know, I got, I’m sorry, but when I was in the, in the middle of the workforce, you know, really just making a living, nobody talked about company culture, and now we talk about it all the time. And I just, I think as a leader, there are some things we really need to be aware of and things that we can develop, especially. I mean, I don’t, I have no idea what our demographic is in terms of listeners, but I would suspect that your readers range in age from, you know, 18 to 75 and, and, and knowing, and creating, and then conveying company culture is sometimes hard for people in my generation.

Emily: (34:28)
Yeah. It’s interesting. There is a generational element to it, for sure. And I think sometimes the pendulum has swung too far. People talk about Foosball and like the parties and the games and stuff like this. And that’s all well and fine if it’s a piece of it, the biggest thing, honestly that goes into culture that I hear over and over are don’t micromanage me. And I wanna feel like the boss or company has my back. And if people have those things, which can come in a number of combinations or permutations, people feel like they’re working in a good culture, I can add a whole bunch more like allowing people to make mistakes and not having that be a scary thing. And encouraging that we talked about failure before, um, having a boss, that’s a servant leader and wants to invest in you and takes the time and energy to get to know you and what you want to do, and then help you as best they can to get there. So all of these different elements being recognized and rewarded for your efforts. So is my hard work rewarded. Do I see a future with the company, a whole bunch of different things, happy to go into any of those you’d like, but yes, those are, those are the big ones for company culture.

Bunny: (35:35)
I think you could just write a book for, you know, people over 50 who are still, um, working at developing the best cultures, but, you have, you talk about communication skills as well. And, I think we… no, well, I’m not gonna assume. I’m not gonna assume. I’m not, Emily says, don’t assume. So I’m not going to assume, but in my world, I attended to think naively that everybody communicated the same way that I did. I’m very verbal. And, um, I assume that I’m very clear. And as I said before, I’m, I’m quick to, I make kind of snap judgements and obviously that’s not how the entire world works. And you talk about that. Tell the listeners about a little bit about those styles.

Emily: (36:30)
Yes. So I’m guilty of that assumption too. So I made that in my career that everyone communicated like I did, and that means they like to receive information the same way I do. And they deliver information in the same way I do. And that’s just a, that’s just a false assumption. And so you, I think you touched on, uh, one aspect of that is verbal processors. And they like to talk out loud to think, and they like to have a sounding board session with someone and just brainstorm. And they, you know, wanna, wanna get people’s opinions and then they wanna think about it, that they would talk to more people and that’s a verbal processor. And then you have internal processors who like to gather data and then think about it by themselves and kind of, simmer on it and then maybe get some more data points and then think about it again and then present their answer and talk about it. And so if you have someone assuming that, Hey, I’m a verbal processor, so everyone must be, you could be in a meeting or a seminar and you see a quiet person and you’re encouraging them to talk and trying to give them a platform to speak. And you think you’re being nice and this person’s like, stop pressuring me. I’m still thinking about my answer. I’ll get you a good one. Just let me think about it. And so that’s just one example of different types of communication.

Bunny: (37:46)
Well, we just did a board retreat and I have 14 people on my board and we invited six people who were on staff because we felt like it was really helpful for them to all everybody to be bought in. Let’s get to the end of the day and know what our trajectory is and what our vision is. And I’m telling you, I made this mistake only a week ago today in that. And we have somebody who’s on staff who is a very internal thinker and, you know, I’m the board chair, I’m leading this group. We have a mediator, but I’m like, we haven’t heard from you yet. And I called them out. And afterwards she said, I would prefer that you not do that. And I will speak, you know, I will let you know when I’m ready to present, but I’ve gotta think about this stuff. And I thought, oh my God, I just Read’s book. But you do. I mean, like, I mean, you say this we’re always learning and getting better, but that was a real direct example. And you told a story about somebody that you would debrief, you would, you would sit down and brief and give them every detail. And they were finally like Ellie, no stop. .

Emily: (39:08)
Yeah. Yeah. And I remember too, there was one scenario several years ago now where the CEO was, was offsite. And so I would write the weekly, all staff email. He would do a summary email every week. And I was in charge of that. And I was like, oh cool. Like I get to be in charge. I’m gonna give someone kudos all company kudos. Cuz they did a good job on something. And I was like, I’m being nice. This is what I would like. I did that. And not 30 seconds later, their boss came rip roaring around the corner to my office and said, Emily, why did you do that? And I was like, “what did I do?” And they basically said so-and-so hates being publicly acknowledged. They don’t like that attention. Like people are paying them and saying congratulations. And he does not like that. And I thought, oh my gosh, I’m so sorry. I would’ve liked the public praise, but not everyone likes that. So I just embarrassed him. So yeah, we all do it and we just have to learn

Bunny: (40:01)
What planet are they from if they don’t?

Emily: (40:03)
I Don’t know, but

Bunny: (40:07)
Well, and you said, and I wrote this down because oh!… I really worked hard. And I learned that day that I have to remember to do this, to come into those meetings in judge, in curiosity, instead of in judgment. And just to remain curious, always, and you talk about that a little bit, because you say don’t, don’t come into a conversation where you already have their answers in your head. Did I, am I mess that up?

Emily: (40:40)
No, I think you have it. It’s You know if you’re going into a conversation or you’re in a conversation and you’re just thinking of what to say next, and you’re just figuring out ways to dig your heels into your position and you’re not really listening to that person that’s not a conversation that’s kind of like you’re giving them time to speak and then you have your mind made up. So absolutely. Don’t go in with, with judgment, try to take away that judgment and bias and instead go in with engaged curiosity. So, Hey, I’m engaged, I’m open-minded. I wanna hear all the information. I wanna hear the different perspectives that doesn’t take anything away from you. It doesn’t take any agency away from you. You might still find yourself in the same position you were at the beginning, but at least you’ve actually considered and you’ve heard and thought about different perspectives and that’s that’s really important.

Emily: (41:31)
It’s, it’s important for yourself because you’re doing yourself a service and you’re getting information. It also is a good thing for other people. People can feel when you are having a conversation with them where it’s, it’s a two-way street and you’re actually having, you know, a conversation and you’re listening and you’re like, oh my gosh, I never thought of that before. That makes me think like, what do you think about this? Cuz that changed my thinking that changes my thinking here versus someone who’s like mm-hmm yeah. Well that’s still not gonna work. Nope. That’s not a good idea. so people can feel the difference.

Bunny: (42:04)
I’ve worked with that guy.

Emily: (42:05)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think we’ve all been on the receiving end. So when we have opportunity, when we have opportunities, especially as a leader, especially as in, you know, a position of power where you don’t have to do that, but it’s the best thing to do to really try to take that opportunity and capitalize on it.

Bunny: (42:23)
Can we talk about doing words like using and versus butt and why versus how tell, tell me about that. Give us some tips on that.

Emily: (42:33)
Absolutely. So some of these communication tips are, are very small and very tactical and practical. It can be one word in a sentence that can change the meaning or the dynamic or connotation of that. And so particularly when giving you feedback, the swapping the word, but for, and can be really helpful. So if you think about someone giving you feedback, they say, you do this well. That well, that well, but, and then they give all the negative feedback. A lot of people will hear that as anything before the, but any word said before the word, but don’t count and they cancel out and they’ll just focus on what you said afterward. Um, whereas if you just swap that one word into an and you do this, well, you do that. Well, you do that well. And I’d like to see kind of more of this or in this direction next time, then it’s a complete sentence. I’m like, oh, okay. Like she’s taking this in its totality. She’s taking a holistic perspective and giving me, um, you know, well founded, well rounded feedback and that’s received a little bit better. So just switching one word can make that message land a bit better to your listener, to your audience

Bunny: (43:43)
And why versus how, how what’s that matter?

Emily: (43:47)
Yeah. So there’s, I think it’s “what” versus.., There’s what versus “why” and “but”.

Bunny: (43:54)
Oh, I’m sorry.

Emily: (43:55)
No worries. Why, when people are on the receiving end of that, if I go, why did you do that? Or how could you do that? It has a different connotation than what led to that decision or what led to this outcome. So why sometimes goes to the personal aspect? So it’s like, oh my gosh, like I have to defend myself as a person, like you’re personally attacking me or like, how could you be so stupid? Well, I don’t know. But instead “what,” you know, “what happened,” that’s outside of ourselves. So it’s like, okay, let’s talk about, you know, the events that, that transpired to bring us to this. And again, you can hear me kind of using we and us and, and detaching it a little bit from a personal attack. So again, if you’re having a conversation and I’ve had many conversations where, Hey, we have an emergency, like a client, escalation is happening, something went wrong, maybe a server went down or a mistake was made on a report.

Emily: (44:49)
And so the words you use in those conversations in the moment are really important to get people in the right frame of mind. And you don’t want someone trying to triage a crisis when they’re panicky and defensive. That’s a bad place to be taking action from and making decisions from you want to get him in a comfortable spot and get him pointing in the direction you want. Similarly, after all is said and done, let’s say a client, escalation is resolved in the debrief sessions or in the conversation with your team member, perhaps they did make a mistake and perhaps it was on them. You don’t need to make them feel worse about it by, you know, rubbing it in and saying like, why, how did you let this happen? Or why, did this, why are you like that instead? It’s kind of taking it and breaking it down in a more objective way. And that allows someone to speak about that in a more objective way as well. So you get to a better answer, you have a better conversation.

Bunny: (45:46)
And is that the same as ask versus tell?

Emily: (45:50)
Yes. That’s another quick tip. So oftentimes we can, we can tell someone what to do. So, um, you know, please set up a meeting for two o’clock or I need you to do this right now, or I’d like to have this happen. And it comes across as an order or kind of derogatory or condescending and, you know, people will do that because you’re the boss and you’re in charge and I have to do what you say. Um, but switching that statement into a question like, Hey way you can, you know, set something up for us at 2:00 PM next week, or, you know are you able to get this report run for me? Just changing it into a question where both of you know, that the answer is gonna be yes. And both of, you know, like, yes, I’m gonna do what you’re telling slash asking me to do, but again, how that’s received and how it lands and how it makes someone feel can be a lot different. So I’ve been tired and stressed out and I do emails and I look back and I get like kind of a sharp response back. And I’m like, wow. Like they were really rude and short. And I look at my email and I’m like, oh my gosh, Emily, like you just were in drill Sergeant mode, rattling out orders. And so I need to be careful, especially when I’m under pressure or feel stressed to make sure I use a question whenever I can, because it’s just a nicer way to say that. And it doesn’t cost me anything. It’s not, you know, it takes like two extra seconds to put it in the form of a question. It’s not costing me anything, but it’s making this dynamic and relationship better. And the quality of the answer I get might be better as well.

Bunny: (47:34)
That’s so funny. You know, as I have gotten a little wiser, I mean, it’s incremental, it’s tiny, but I did have a mentor about 10 or 12 years ago, who said, if you will just proofread every single email you send out and read it aloud. I thought that was a great tip. I mean, she said, read your emails aloud because you know, even if you’re, and I know that takes extra time. I taught it to my team and I said, you have to read them aloud because if they sound a little short to you, they’re gonna sound really short to the person who received them. And so curt in your mind comes across as aggressive to the reader. It seems. And so that’s really, some of this is just being cordial.

Emily: (48:37)
Yeah. And it’s funny because one of my clients had an example where he was like, my boss sends me these like certain types of emails at all, caps that I get really stressed. And I start sweating when these come through and I was like, oh, interesting. You know, maybe ask him like what does he mean by that? Is that like a certain type of email or whatnot? And so he did, and the boss was like, oh no, I send all of my emails in caps, like all of my emails like that are in caps. And I was like, oh, there we go. He not yelling. But he’s just, he that’s just how he writes emails, but it was good information to share. So yeah, just little, little things like that.

Bunny: (49:08)
That’s hilarious. That’s hilarious. Well there is that other chapter and, but, you know, it’s so intricate. I don’t want to go into it, but it’s all about hiring and you, you provide some really good tips. You provide some scripts, you know, what do you do after the interview? What do you do? I love that and I wish I had had it before we made this last hire, but I’m gonna use it again, but it’s a really good template for going through the hiring process with some success. But, Emily, if you were… I mean, let’s talk, say, let’s say we’ve got somebody like me who’s always struggling with you know, I always think about what kind of leader do I wanna be? What kind of leader do I wanna be? I think sometimes it boils down to what sort of leader do people want to be led by? Am I crazy?

Emily: (50:07)
No. No. That’s a good way to approach that question. I think that’s a large question. So I’ll just give you some brief brief things. So one, play to your strengths and be authentic. And I know that’s like the buzzword, but what I mean by that is don’t try to become the type of leader. You’re not. So a lot of people go leader. I need to be loud and gregarious and get up on stage and be flashy and do all these things. And that is one type of leadership. Absolutely. And if that suits your strengths and personalities and inclinations go do that. But if that’s impersonating someone and that’s trying to be something you’re not, then go with a different leadership style and there’s hundreds of different ones. I think too, the approach you mentioned, which is okay, well, you know, what bosses have I had in the past?

Emily: (50:56)
Which ones have I liked and why? You know, again, that’s individual to you, but it’s a good starting place. You know, what, what traits and characteristics and interactions did I appreciate and helped me grow? Let me try, I’m now that person to someone else, let me try to espouse those. And then it’s taking time to think about what makes a good leader. And that is a big question, but if you take some time, some things might pop up versus just glazing over it or breathing over it. So things like for me, it’s adaptability a great leader is able to adapt and turn change or something unexpected into an opportunity versus just defeat or a struggle. It’s things like servant leadership and waking up and saying, how can I help other people be successful and not have it all be all about me, transparency, decision, making all these different things. So being able to just have a brainstorm and think about what are the traits that I think a good leader should have, and either writing those down or just being able to articulate those and think through those out loud is a good exercise to go through. But it’s a great question. I’m happy to go into it further, but those are my few quick tips right off the bat.

Bunny: (52:11)
Well, we will talk about this again. I just, and I wanna say to anybody, who’s thinking about how to be a great leader pick up Emily’s book. I will have a link to it, but also you said your coaching practice was really picking up. Do you have space for anybody else? If somebody wants to find you,

Emily: (52:31)
At the time of recording, it’s getting quite tight. But I don’t know when this will be aired and so things ebb and flow, so please, please feel free to reach out. I am actually working on a free download for 10 traits of effective leaders. And so by the time this airs I’m about to, about to publish that live. So you can go to my website and check that out just for a thought starter, but,

Bunny: (52:54)
And tell folks what your website is.

Emily: (52:56)
Absolutely it’s nextlevel.coach. And if you just click the resources tab up top, you can go to the place where you can get the free download.

Bunny: (53:08)
Well, Emily, once again, it’s so I could talk to you for another couple of hours. It’s so helpful. And I don’t know. Well, I know other people are learning things, but it’s really, really helpful to me. So thank you for being here and let’s do it again.

Emily: (53:24)
Absolutely. Bunny, It’s always a pleasure and thank you so much for having me for round two, and I hope we can continue the conversation.

Bunny: (53:31)
Absolutely. That’s all we’ve got today. Friends. I wanna thank you for joining the life saving gratitude podcast with your host Bunny Terry that’s me and my producer and assistant Johanna Medina. We feel like we’re in the business of sharing the stories that save us, and we hope you’ll share as well by letting your friends and family know about the podcast follow and like us wherever you listed. And please take the time to leave a review. Whether it’s a stellar comment or a suggestion, we are open to suggestions all the time. Also follow us on Instagram @LifesavingGratitudePod. You can also follow me personally at Bunny Terry, Santa Fe. You can sign up my website at bunnyterry.com to receive weekly emails about how to become the ultimate gratitude nerd. Thanks so much for checking in.

Bunny: Hi everyone. This is Bunny with the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. Just in case you don’t know me, I am a stage four colon cancer survivor and the author of Lifesaving Gratitude, which is a book about how gratitude helped me kick cancer’s ass. 

Today we’re going to talk to a special guest about how marketing and marketers can use gratitude to create business and connections with clients and also for themselves to create a really positive way to do their job. But first, I just want to thank you for being here and ask that you download the podcast if you’d like. And certainly subscribe wherever you listen to other podcasts. But enough about me and enough about the podcast. 

I want to introduce you to my special guest, who’s also a friend. Craig Cunningham is currently a realtor with Keller Williams, Santa Fe. And that’s how I met him. However, this is a recent career for him and he was, and correct me if I mispronounce the word, but you were a hotelier. Is that the way to say that?

Craig: Yes. 

Bunny: Yes. He’s spent 30 years in corporate sales and marketing. He’s traveled extensively. I’m going to let him tell you all the places that he’s been to, but he is the founder and principal of Cunningham + Colleagues marketing consultants. He was in the past the VP of marketing and quality for Seaport Hotels and World Centers and the VP of marketing for Core North America. So welcome Craig Cunningham.

Craig: Thanks so much for having me on your podcast.

Bunny: I’m excited. I know you have some great tips for all of our listeners. When I think about these podcasts, I always think about the people that are going to want the information we’re offering. I mean, we’re here to help people and we’re here to figure out how gratitude can make everyone’s life not just easier and simpler, but also fuller. So why don’t you start, Greg? Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us how in the world you ended up in this completely different career? And yet the truth is we’re still just marketers first and realtors, second. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell our listeners.

Craig: Yeah. So, as you said, I’ve been in marketing and sales for more than 30 years. I actually started off with an advertising and PR agency and then had the good fortune to be hired by my hotel client at the time, Wyndham hotels. At that time it was a North American chain and it’s now international. 

But from then on, I was in the hotel business. It’s definitely a career where if you are not focused on client service and the whole concept of gratitude, you’re not going to be successful. I always thought of our job as just surprising and delighting our guests and making them feel like they chose the right hotel to be with. And so it was always about waking up every day and saying, “What can I do to make somebody’s day and to give them a great experience?” And, of course, to do this you have to be grateful because they opted to choose your hotel over the million other choices that they had. 

So when I retired from the hotel business two years ago, I was trying to figure out what else I wanted to do with my life. I started doing more volunteering. I volunteer with Kitchen Angels here in Santa Fe to deliver meals to people who are not able to leave their homes. But I also started thinking of whether I wanted to do something else from a professional standpoint and the real estate business seemed like a natural extension, because it’s all about client service. You have to figure out ways to make people feel like they’ve made the right choice in working with you. So it’s all about being grateful every day and figuring out what can I do to help them today. How else can I extend what I’m doing for them in a way that they will appreciate and know that I appreciate them. So that’s what it’s really all about, because of course they could work with a million other other people

Bunny: Right. And let’s talk for just a second. Don’t you think that marketing has changed over the 30 years that you’ve been doing this? I mean, it seems to me that when we were kids, which was back before the crust cooled, we were sort of marketed at. Just talk for a minute about how marketing is different now than it was 10 years ago or 30 years ago.

Craig: It’s funny, because I was going to say the exact same thing. Back in the day, you were running a TV ad or a radio spot or a print ad and it was passive in that you just presented the information, unless you were direct sales. But really with the advent of so much digital media, you are instantly able to forge a relationship with customers through social media, through Facebook, Instagram, where you’re having a dialogue with them from the very beginning. This allows you to work in a much more personal way and to be able to find out much more quickly how you can serve those people. 

So I think it’s changed completely. Before you just sort of put it out there into the ether and hope that something worked, and now you’re able to engage. And I’ve found that so much in real estate where I’m getting emails from folks and then it evolves from the email into a phone call or a zoom call or something like that instantly. I think that’s so much better for both people. Especially for somebody like me who wants to find ways to engage with people and to be of service to them, it makes it a lot easier and more rewarding.

Bunny: I just think about the ways that I connect with my clients. It’s as if you’re somehow conveying to those people that you’re grateful that they showed up.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, my whole thought is that it’s not a transaction, it’s a relationship. And that relationship can be multifaceted. Once you’ve sold them a house or sold their house, I like to think that we’ve formed a friendship and a bond and that relationship is going to continue. And honestly, I don’t even care if I ever get another piece of business for them. Now think of them as friends. I want to have them to my house for dinner or go have coffee or something like that. 

I think that kind of thing that makes a difference for people in wanting to work with me.  It’s coming from a position of wanting to be of service to them and wanting to make them happy and finding the right solution for them. I’m working with some first-time-buyers right now and I kind of feel like they’re my kids. It’s about, okay, how can I really help them with this? And they’re grateful for the counsel I’m able to give to them, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to work with them. So it’s very rewarding. I think if you approach business relationships in the same way as you would with your friends, it’s a win-win situation for everybody.

Bunny: Well, talking about those first-time home buyers, I mean, that’s one of my favorite deals. You never make the most money from those transactions, but I’m so grateful to be reminded that we are providing the American dream when we’re selling real estate. Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s my favorite experience.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, for somebody to have their first home and to be excited about how they’re going to decorate it and what they’re going to do. And with this young couple, seeing them excited when they see a house brings out all my empathy and makes me want to really go the extra mile for them to make sure they find the right house at the right price for them. And then I just never want to stop. So then it’s like, “Okay, now I’m going to find this person for you to do the plumbing, and I’m going to find this person, etc, and I’ll be with you with you  to help explain things.” I just want to really continue to be of service.

Bunny: I talk a lot, especially on my blog, about Judy Camp, who was one of my first real estate mentors. She was a great friend and Linda Gammons partner for a long time before she passed away. But Judy Camp always says, “If you come from contribution, you can’t help but be successful.”

Craig: Yeah. I mean, just as I was saying, you can’t think of it as a transaction. I think, coming from contribution, how can I help you? How can I make this a better experience? How can I make this work? Because, especially in a real estate transaction, it can be stressful. It’s the biggest financial transaction for the majority of us. So how do you take the burden and the pressure away from them and sort of guide them through the process? I just think the main thing is that it’s much more fun, whether you’re doing volunteer work or in business, to wake up every day and figure out how I could make it fun for somebody else. Because then it’s fun for you and it gets you excited and passionate about what you’re doing.

Bunny: Well, it sounds like our big “why’s” are really similar. I certainly don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but it sounds like your big “why” is just to make the life of the people you come in contact with better.

Craig: Yeah. Of course making money is nice, but there are lots of ways to make money. It’s more about whether you are getting energy from it. And I think you really get energy when you’re working with someone and trying to figure out how you can help them, how you can make their day better, how you can make the service that you’re providing better. And also just doing things that saying, “What about if I do X, Y, Z?” and they’re  like, “Oh, you’ll do that for me?” And I’m like, “Of course.”

I have another set of clients where the transaction was fairly complicated and we were looking at lots of properties. Coming from a corporate background, I love to do spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations—things like that. And so after about the third thing we had to do, they’re like, “Oh, how are we going to organize all these bids?”  And then one of the guys said to the other guy, “Well, Craig’s going to do a spreadsheet for us. He’s probably already got it done.” So it’s that kind of thing where you’re looking for ways to make their experience better.

Bunny: So this is always a funny question for me to ask, because I have such a loose gratitude practice other than just waking up in the morning and saying, “thank you, thank you, thank you,” and then writing things down, but do you have a practice that you follow that helps you both in your business and your personal life?

Craig: Well, since I came into real estate with Keller Williams, which focuses a lot on being servant leaders and helping people, I’ve gotten into the habit of writing three things I’m grateful for that day. It could be that it’s a beautiful day or a dog or my partner or the opportunity to help somebody or the coffee’s really good that day, but waking up and appreciating what you have in your life is a good way to get in a good mindset for the rest of it.

Bunny: Oh, absolutely. Something I always say is that we kind of rewire our brains. We do. We create new neural pathways every time we say that we’re grateful. So in terms of nuts and bolts, is there a way that you let your clients know? I mean, I find that there are a lot of young people, young entrepreneurs or people who are new to business, who forget how to tell their clients how they’re grateful for them, even if it’s a line in an email. Do you have something that you do specifically over and over?

Craig: I think for me, it’s maybe more in the actions. I think of “This is really going to be helpful if I do this or if I provide this information.” I think it’s always in my voice and the way that I write. I try to always communicate openly and in a friendly and conversational manner. But then I also think “It would be really cool and really helpful if I did X , Y , Z.” I created a whole PowerPoint just on the neighborhoods in Santa Fe, because if you’re out of town it gets confusing. And that came out of a client saying, “Well, I don’t really know the neighborhoods.” And I thought that this would be a great tool for them. So I created it and then I was able to use it with others. 

So I think for me, maybe it’s sort of on the fly. I used to say in the hotel hotel business, “How can I make this a wow experience?” Because the other way to think about it is that every relationship is with people. When you’re in a service business you’re really in the business of creating memories. You can create good memories or you can create bad memory and it’s much more fun to create good memories.

Bunny: And that just comes from a spirit of generosity. I mean, you obviously want this to be the best real estate experience they’ve ever had.

Craig: Right. Right. I’m very grateful for the people that have helped me along the way. I’ve been very fortunate in my career to always work for people who were concerned about my career development and my personal development and became dear friends. And I’ve had a couple of bosses that have hired me twice in two different jobs. So I’m always grateful for the things that other people have done for me. 

So then I want to pay it forward. When I came to Keller Williams and I was introduced to the team here, there was so much openness and willingness to share and help and support. It has been fantastic. What strikes me the most is how grateful I am for what other people have done for me. And how do I pay that back?

Bunny: I mean, this is not a podcast to plug Keller Williams. It’s really more to talk about mindset, but the place where I learned it was sitting in that training room and learning that my mindset was the secret sauce. I mean, that’s the success piece, right?

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s not just about production and everything. It’s about weight and having a sense of gratitude and contribution and a sense of abundance. And I don’t mean that in a monetary way. It could be abundance in your health or your friends or all of that kind of stuff. And I think back to you. Your experience with cancer was far worse than mine, but I did have prostate cancer about nine years ago. Everyone I worked with during that entire time when I was going for radiation every day for 10 weeks was so supportive. And then on the last day of radiation, there was this very important meeting, and everyone knew it was my last day.My whole team had a celebration for me on my last day. That was turning something that was obviously a challenging situation into something where I knew they really cared about me and supported me.

Bunny: Wow. I’m interested to hear how your mindset was in the middle of that? 

Craig: I’m just by nature, an optimistic person. So even though it was scary, I felt like I was in good hands from a medical standpoint and I just felt like I was gonna beat it. I had done the education that I needed to and then it was really about having a positive mindset. 

This is probably too much information, but I’ll say it anyway. You’re doing the radiation stripped down to your boxer shorts. And so I jokingly put this Facebook thing about the fact that I needed a new pair of boxer shorts for every day. And people started sending me underwear—different pairs of boxer shorts for every day. So while I was sitting there in the big machine, where you’re sort of in there and it’s buzzing and scanning and all that kind of stuff, it got to be kind of a joke with the techs:  “Oh , what’s he going to be wearing today?”

Bunny: I love that.

Craig: That was a way to keep my spirits up. And also during that process, I really learned how to be very focused. I was in a waiting room with people that were going through, frankly, worse things than prostate cancer. Don’t get me wrong, prostate cancer is pretty serious. It is. People die from it. But I was seeing so many other people that were having a much more challenging time than I was. And we became a family. We all bonded together during that process, because we were all waiting, sometimes for an hour. So it’s things like that. And also things like the kitchen angels service, where it helps reboot you every day for how grateful you should be in your own life and grateful for the opportunity to help other people.

Bunny: Right. There are tons of people who do get what a gift it is. People who don’t even have a specific gratitude practice, but at least an attitude every day that you’re going to figure out something. I just wrote a blog post on limiting beliefs and one of the things that I wanted to convey is that we get to choose every single moment how we view the world. And maybe for somebody out there who’s brand new in business or who’s starting a new business. I just read a statistic that said that the entrepreneur demographics are changing. And now like 48% of new entrepreneurs are over 50. So hooray for the old people! 

But I know that there are people out there right now who are thinking, “Well, I’m not any good at marketing. I’m not any good at that piece of it. I can sell stuff, but I’m not good at the marketing stuff.” I’ve got to tell you, I’m married to a guy who doesn’t believe in self promotion because he came from a generation when you played down your assets, instead of being grateful for them and talking about them. So I’d love to hear what you have to say to somebody who has that limiting belief that they can’t market. And they can’t promote themselves.

Craig: You know, we could all market ourselves, and we do it every day in our interactions.  Whether we think of it as marketing or not, we’re marketing ourselves all day long in how we react and treat other people. The thought I had as you were talking about your husband thinking self-promotion sounds like a dirty word is that it doesn’t have to be you talking  about “me, me, me” and “I did this million dollars in revenue.” This is kind of a turnoff in some ways, because you’re talking about yourself. But if you’re talking about how you can help somebody else and how you can provide a good experience for them with your information and knowledge, you’re not talking about yourself in that context. You’re talking about how you can be of service. I think that’s a much easier way for a lot of people from a generation where we weren’t really supposed to be talking about ourselves.

Bunny: Well, it was pre-social media. Our face wasn’t out there. We just weren’t trained to tell people, “Here’s the reason you should hire me instead of the other person.”

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, now we’re all our own brands on social media. But I think that rather than saying to somebody, “Here’s why you should hire me versus somebody else,” you should just talk about how you can be of service in what you do in an authentic way. Then people are more likely to want to work with you, because you’re radiating a sense of positivity and an interest in them. And they’re not thinking that you just look at them as a transaction and then you’re onto the next person.

Bunny: I frequently use with my marketing coaching clients the example of a dinner party. If you went into a dinner party (and this is for people who are just beginning in whatever business they’re in, especially if they’re self-employed), you wouldn’t simply walk in, take your coat off and say, “Hey, I’m selling something, come and talk to me.” Right? I mean, that’s what you don’t want to do with marketing. You want to start by building a relationship. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Craig: I think it goes all the way back to Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. People do like to talk about themselves. And so the first thing is you should be listening. That was one of the first things I learned in marketing client service. You need to ask questions and learn from your clients. Focus on what they need, as opposed to talking about yourself. You really want to establish a dialogue with them about their wants and needs and hopes and fears and everything else. Then you can talk about how you can address them. But nobody wants to go in and all of a sudden have you sit down and say, “Here’s my PowerPoint about me and what I’ve done.” It should be more of establishing, from the very beginning, a relationship of openness with folks. Then, after hearing from them, you can say “Well, here’s how I think I can you and here are some ideas that I have that I could share with you.” So I think a key thing is really listening from the very beginning.

Bunny: I even found that to be helpful when I used to first go on listing appointments. I was so nervous that I would sit down and I would immediately try to book an appointment. You know, if you’re not in real estate, a listing appointment is just like sitting down with a prospective customer. I would be so nervous in the beginning and really coming from a place of scarcity where I thought, “If I don’t get this listing, I’m not sure I can pay the rent next month.” And if you’re coming from a place of scarcity, you’re likely to self-sabotage. But that’s such good advice because things changed when I finally learned how to sit back and listen: “I’m here to help you. Tell me what it is that you need. Talk to me.” It’s so powerful to give a client time to talk to you. And I think people forget to do that, right?

Craig: Yeah. And I think sometimes we do it because we’re afraid. What I’ve learned so much over the years in business working with people is that people are terrified of silence, so they will immediately start talking. If there’s a second of silence, you jump in and start babbling. Lord knows I do it. But if you just let somebody talk and let it sort of sit there for a second and not just try to be filling in all the time. It drives me crazy when people are doing that. It’s much better if you can have the client talk and then ask some more questions and then be warm and reflective about it. Back to the Dale Carnegie thing, I think one of his first points was if you’re at the dinner party, ask people about themselves. Most people do like to talk about themselves. So ask them and don’t just start talking about yourself. 

Bunny: I think that even people who would say, “I don’t like to talk about myself,” really do want somebody to ask them and listen to them.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s not just asking them to go on and on. It’s more meaningful questions about, for example, why they decided to move here. Just those kinds of questions that get them thinking. Growing up in materialistic Dallas, the joke was that the questions at a party were like, “Where do you live? What do you do? What do you drive?” And so it’s not questions like that. It’s asking them more about their life experience,

Bunny: You just brought me to another completely different point, which is for any realtors out there listening: I think it’s really important to convey to your clients how grateful you are for where you live. I mean, if our lifestyle is such a selling point, don’t you think you should share that?

Craig: Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, living in Santa Fe there’s so much beauty. I’m looking out my window right now at the beautiful blue sky. When I leave my house in the morning and I see the mountains, and then when I’m coming home at night and the sun is setting over the mountains and I see all the different colors and everything, it’s just breathtaking. It’s great to live in such a great and wonderful environment and in a place that is very spiritual, going back with the native Americans—respect for the earth and nature and all of those things—I think it does help center us more than a lot of other places.

Bunny: How do you convey that to your clients? I know you’re doing something really cool online that’s different from some other realtors.

Craig: Well, I’m not just posting on my Facebook page,” Hey, I just sold this house or just sold that house.” Well, that’s great. But I’m more talking about new experiences in Santa Fe: new restaurants, or a new place to go hiking, or something exciting that’s happening at one of the museums or things like that—enthusiastically talking about the experience of living in Santa Fe. And if down the road, by the way, you’re looking at this stuff and you decide you want to buy a house here, I would love to help you. But it’s more about conveying the reason why we all want to live here

Bunny: And tell us about your blog, because I think it’s amazing.

Craig: So I created this blog, which is called Santa Fe Scenes. It’s that same kind of thing where it’s just talking about having fun in Santa Fe. One of the things was, you know, we’ve got the old Santa Fe trail and we’ve got the old Pincus trail, but did you know that we had a Margarita trail and a Chocolate trail? Stuff like that. Just being whimsical about it and talking about some of the things are unique about the city and sharing my own passion for Santa Fe. I was very fortunate to be able to do a lot of international travel for my job. I was grateful for the opportunity that I was given to see places that I wouldn’t have seen otherwise from Bogota to Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro and Beijing and places like that. So I’ve always been enthusiastic about travel and now living in such a beautiful place like Santa Fe, I want to share that enthusiasm with people.

Bunny: And you’re getting some good feedback on that I bet, right?

Craig: Yes, I am. I’m getting good feedback on it. It’s been a wonderful thing to reconnect with friends who are saying, “Good for you, you old dog! You’re back out there trying something new.” Because whenever someone says, “Oh, you’re a new realtor,” I say, “Well, I’m an old new realtor. I’m 61 and I’m starting this for the first time.” But it’s been great from that perspective and the support that you get from your friends. Then people are saying, “Oh, well, I know somebody who might be interested in sending you that information.” I think that’s one of the positive things that social media has done where we’ve been able to reconnect with so many people that we might have completely lost touch with.

Bunny: Oh yeah. I did a post not very long ago about how grateful I was, and it was in the middle of all the fear over Facebook and Twitter. And I just said that it’s such a great platform for reconnecting with cousins that I haven’t seen since I was six. I mean, I just turned 60. I’m an old dog and this is a new trick for me, but I think that if you use it the right way, it’s a real gift. I also think there are so many realtors, like you said, who just post either pictures of houses that they have listed or their accomplishments. And I think they’re really missing an opportunity.

Craig: Yeah. Because then you’re just talking at someone. You’re not sharing information and excitement about things with them. People don’t want to look at that stuff. They want to look at things like the fact that there are like six great chocolate tiers in Santa Fe. And then the next time I’m in town, I want to go to each one of them. Or discovering an amazing new hiking trail or a beautiful image of a shop window or a piece of art or something like that. 

Bunny: Yeah, it’s so much better than “I just listed this house at 123 main street. Don’t you wish you owned it?” Exactly.

Craig: Exactly. I think more people would react to it. I’d really like to have some of that green chili chocolate over at The Chocolate Smith or whatever. It’s much more interesting than a picture of a kitchen that has granite countertops. Oh my goodness.

Bunny: And, you know, Craig, I found that people will call me and they’ll say, “Well, I’ve been following you on Facebook for two years. And I feel like you’re my best friend. I think you’d be the right person to show me around and help me find a house.” And I bet that’s happening to you too.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s funny, you mentioned that. One of the people I’ve been mentoring told me a story about how she posted a lovely picture of herself and then somebody called her and said, “I feel like I already know you because you just look like a nice person and I feel like I can trust you.” I think also that it’s our eyes and our smile and everything that conveys so much of what you’re talking about. If you have a spirit of gratitude and service and a sense of abundance, not scarcity, it shows in your face, your eyes, your smile, and your whole persona.

Bunny: Well, we’re going to have to wrap up here in a minute, but I would love to hear if you have just three great tips that you would give to somebody who feels kind of stuck in their marketing. It could be what you’ve learned in 30 years or in the last three days, whatever it is.

Craig: I think one is changing your question from “How do I market myself?” to “What can I do for this client?” or “What can I do that’s going to excite the people? How can I make them feel appreciated and valued?” And this can work in cases where you’re actually working one-on-one with a client or cases where you’re trying to figure out how to promote what you’re doing. How do I find ways to surprise and delight people? So I like to do that with social media buys, where you come up with quirky, little things to talk about that are authentically Santa Fe or a funny picture of my dog or something like that. You want to put a smile on people’s faces. And social media gives us so many opportunities to be able to do that in ways that we couldn’t before. So the main thing at the end of it is to put your client first, and then I think everything else will come from there.

Bunny: You’re absolutely right. I think as long as your passion is helping people, then success is just a natural by-product of that.

Craig: Exactly. People feel that energy and then they want to tell their friends about you.

Bunny: What I’ve found is that people want to be able to trust somebody, especially in this business where they’re making possibly the biggest purchase of their life.

Craig: Right? I’m thinking back to these younger clients. We were touring houses, and they were interested in one particular house and I was like, “No, I’m not going to let you buy this. This is not the right move.” And I think all of a sudden they’re like, “Wow, he really cares. He’s not just thinking ‘Tick tock, tick tock. We’ve seen three houses.’” This is not House Hunters International where there are the three properties and you have to buy one. So again, it’s not a transaction. It’s a journey. It’s a relationship.

Bunny: I think that’s the most important tip for somebody to take away. Whether you’re selling widgets or earrings or house cars or houses, this is not a transaction. It’s a relationship. We want people to trust you and come back over and over. I don’t know how you can love your job if you’re not doing it the way we’re doing it.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. And have fun with it. We get to meet interesting people all day long. We get to see things. We get to use our own creativity to express ourselves. I know there are people that are in jobs that don’t have that. But I also read things about  the janitor in an elementary school who takes real pride in what they do, and they are going to do the best job that they possibly can. So I think in almost everything, you can come at it with a mindset of “How can I make this a great experience for me and for others?”

Bunny: That’s great stuff. Tell us where people can find you and where they can find your blog.

Craig: Well, probably the most fun thing I’m doing is the Santa Fe Scenes blog. 

Bunny: Okay. And we’ll share that on the information page for the podcast. And then, of course, if people want to buy a house from you, they can find you through there?

Craig: Yeah. All my information is on there. So one stop shop.

Bunny: Craig, I’m so excited that you were here. This was fun. I think we could do it again.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Bunny: Because I think this is the place where people get stuck. People who are self-employed get stuck in this part. And so I think there’s a lot of stuff that we can talk about.  But I’m of course really grateful that you agreed to talk with us.

Craig: Oh, thanks. It’s been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. 

Bunny: And to everybody else, thanks for being here. This is once again, the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry. You are welcome to go to my website if you’d like to learn more about me and about buying my book, which is all about gratitude and how gratitude helped me kick stage four cancer’s ass. And we’d love to have you follow us and subscribe on spot Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks so much, Craig.

Craig: Thank you. Next time.