Resilience Through Gratitude

Bunny: 0:02

Hi there! Welcome to the Lifesaving gratitude podcast. This is Bunny Terry. And I’m joined by my producer and co- host Johanna Medina, who also happens to be my daughter. And we have Daphne Miller back with us today. Daphne did a podcast for us previously. She is on the faculty at George Mason university. She’s an executive coach. She also has some private coaching clients and is an expert on how the brain works in particular, how the brain works with gratitude and resilience and positivity. So we’re excited to have Daphne come back. We were, when we scheduled her, we really wanted to talk about resilience.

Johanna: 0:57

Yeah. We had a few different topics. You know, we were really excited to talk to her, to catch back up with her. Talk more about resilience , and kind of just like resilience, fatigue, I think is kind of how she calls it too . Uh, because of just how things are going with COVID and people , you know, feeling kind of that fatigue. And also another thing that had come up for us was , um, toxic positivity. So we had a lot of stuff we wanted to talk to her about, but , um, as you’ll see, you know, once we get into a Daphne, it’s like we could really have like a four or five hour episodes . So there probably will be a part three of this at some point, but she’s yeah, she’s so amazing. I kept thinking like, why hasn’t she written a book about like all of these great quotes she has all these little sayings you can tell her. Totally. Just her original thoughts. I had just so many things that were , um, you know, to pull out of this episode.

Bunny: 2:00

Oh, I know she said I, I was so, so busy writing down notes that I was afraid I was going to miss something. I can’t wait to go back and listen to this, but she talked to us about being emotionally agile. Um, she talked about how you want to invite your body to the game because it’s there already. We tend to use our brain all the time and we don’t involve our heart and our gut as often as we can. She talked about riding and not fighting the waves. And she talked about how resilience really is the best definition of resilience is struggling well, and I, I think we always tend to think of resilience as our ability to thrive. And, and I, I got from her that it’s not just thriving, it’s also struggling, but doing it in the best way possible.

Johanna: 2:55

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And that resilience, it kind of goes back to what she talked about in the first episode. I mean, this is going to be one where you probably really want to go back through the transcript and like pull all those quotes out. But , on our first episode with her, she had talked about that like 40% and 40, 60%, like what you’re born with and what you can kind of choose to , like change or work towards. And a lot of that is, you know , wrapped up in resilience too . Like some of that we’re born with and some of it we have to kind of cultivate and work at and, you know, we’re starting to see to just all these pieces from other guests and even the same people coming back again, all kind of wrapping up nicely together, like mindfulness, compassion , um, um, and , uh , so mindfulness, compassion, resilience. We get a lot of people in gratitude, of course, like a lot of people talking about the same things . So it’s really cool to see that commonality coming through.

Bunny: 4:01

Right. And I also , very quickly want to give a shout out to the folks who have written such great reviews of the podcast. In fact, we had somebody who wrote a five star, a four star review the other day that said a bright light and what a wonderful way of sharing hope. That’s what we want to do. Um, we want to share hope. We want to share ideas about gratitude and resilience and how, just, how to how to live your life in a better way, in a way that feels healthy and whole and hopeful. So we, we really appreciate the reviews. We hope you’ll subscribe and like, and, and review us wherever you find us.

Johanna: 4:47

Yeah. And definitely again, be sure to check those links in the description or on the website, bunnyterry .com . Uh, we mentioned, you know, some cool books in this episode that you might want to check out. And then of course all of Daphne’s information. And I’ll just say, I found my other favorite quote that we didn’t mention yet, but , uh, from Daphne was that “my emotional space doesn’t have to move at the speed of the world.” That’s the one that I wanted to hold onto this week. Daphne’s Great. You’re going to love this one.

Bunny: 5:16

Yep. You are. Thanks for being here. and we’re back. With my friend and my colleague and my client at one point Daphne Miller. And , you heard , once again, in the intro that we had her on our podcast previously, and we talked a lot about the way the brain works on gratitude, you know, sort of like gratitude is our drug of choice. But I’m, I’m interested to know Daphne, it’s been several months since we talked. How have things been going since we last saw you?

Daphne: 5:59

Well, it’s great to be here first. Let me say that it’s really fun to do this again. And life has been generally for me , pretty wonderful. I have, we’re slowly making our way into life in Santa Fe, New Mexico, which was put on hold in a big way due to COVID. We drove across the country and moved here at the height of COVID last summer. And so we are finding our way and that’s been fun and exciting. Plus my daughter is getting married in a few weeks and we’ve got that to look forward to. So that’s fun and exciting as well.

Bunny: 6:42

Has anything changed? I’m gonna put you on the spot here and, and, and you can answer or not, but the last time that we did this afterwards, you said, I was kinda dreading this. I didn’t really want to do it. Someone very dear to me had had , was having an issue. Do you want to talk about that for just a second? How the podcast, how doing the podcast helped you in that moment?

Daphne: 7:08

Sure. I mean, so that’s a really interesting question. And it’s something that I was thinking about a little bit. It was my cousin who, a first cousin that was like a sister to me. We were very close. You know, we spent summers together when she was doing her internship working in Texas when I was just graduating from college, you know , we lived together during two different summers, shared a double bed. I mean, we were, you know, learning to find our way in the world as adults, not just as being childhood, you know, having fun together. And she was diagnosed on April 27th with a very serious fatal neurological disease called Crutchfield Jakub. And from the time that she was diagnosed, which was about the time we were together on our podcast , she died 40 days later. And it has really brought a lot to my mind. Yeah, it was very difficult. We, we, my husband and I did fly to Chicago to visit her. The first symptoms that she had was she literally woke up one morning on , on April 9th and could not form sentences. And it took, you know, a couple of weeks for the doctors to discern what was wrong with her. And we just really spent a lot of time. I was there for four days and we just spent time being together, right. Connection, which was super important for me. And I think it was important for her because she had the understanding that she did not have long to live and did not have any words to be able to vocalize or express her uncertainty or anxiety. And just having that connection was really important. And it really has made me reflect back on gratitude and that, how do you find that in the face of something that is so powerfully difficult? And I know you’ve written a blog on this as well. Right. You get that statement that tells you that it’s everything right. There’s the, your life before that sentence and your life after that sentence. Yeah. So that was a big thing. And, you know, reaching deep inside of myself to touch that gratitude of how does that look? How do I do it? And also honor the grief that I was experiencing and hold the space for someone I loved dearly to be afraid and uncertain in her journey. It was a lot .

Bunny: 10:18

That is all, I mean, it’s such hard stuff. And I, and I apologize if I’m asking the question was too hard. I just think that, you know, we talk all the time about gratitude and we talk about, you know, how it’s, you know, this practice, practice practice, but I gotta tell you , there are about three days out of the week where I’m like, really, I don’t feel so grateful. And none of it is as devastating in my moments, especially right now in my life as what you experienced. So I appreciate you talking about how it’s a hard it’s, it’s, it’s free, but it’s not always easy. And it’s not always,

Daphne: 10:57

I think that last statement that you made is so true is that it is free for us to access and it is not simple. And it asks us to go deep into the belly of the whale. Right. I mean, there is that story for a reason, right. That just sometimes I just want to throw a pity party. Thank you very much. Not a wanna and that is a truth, right? It’s not the only truth, but it does ask us to go deep inside of ourselves and examine what it is that we’re experiencing.

Johanna: 11:48

Yeah . Um , man, that hit me kind of hard because I’ve been having, even though it’s only Tuesday, I’ve been having kind of one of those weeks where I’m like, I’m having a hard time and everything is difficult and there’s too much going on. And then, you know, but I need to take that time to think about like, my life is really good and, you know, I dunno , it just kind of made me feel like, oh, I’m having kind of a selfish week. I’m kind of thinking about myself a little bit too much. Um, so sometimes we do have to take it back. I mean, and that happens, we have those days, but

Daphne: 12:23

I think that’s, self-compassion in our world. Things move very fast now. And because of the speed, which so much of our world moves, I think from working with my clients and you know, my friends and my family, that there seems to be this notion that I have to move my emotional space needs to move at the space at the speed of the world. And I don’t think that’s accurate, right. For me, it is not a truth. Right. And I have to remind myself that , um, I’m , I’m hurting here. I have lost this wonderful companion cousin, sister confidant, you know , giggle partner That makes me sad.

Bunny: 13:26

It is sad. It’s really, really sad, devastating.

Daphne: 13:30

It is. And I think the gratitude piece in that and the part that, you know, when I think about some of the interviews that I’ve heard you do, I haven’t heard all of them. Some of them is that, you know, that gratitude is something that can be gold cultivated in our mind. We have to think about our , you know, we have to be conscious and mindful, right? That’s the resilience piece of our thoughts. And it asks us to kind of go deep. And that’s what it ultimately was is that, you know, I could look at pictures or think about some of the things that we have together. And what I know is that the sadness that I experienced also points to the things in my life that give me purpose and meaning, right. That I, that I gave weight and power to. So my relationship with Lisa, I had, there was weight and power and meaning and purpose and connection to be connected. Right. And so if I hadn’t had all those things with her, I wouldn’t have sadness. So I have to honor my sadness first and say, you know, I’m sad because there was something real there that is not really gone away. She has gone someplace else until I see her again. But I also kind of think she’s with me too. And that allows me to really then go, okay, I’m grateful for that because I learned things in connection, in relationship with her that I would not have had otherwise ,

Bunny: 15:14

I wish that our guests, our listeners could see the way that your face sort of changed when you said, but I also think she’s kind of with me too, because , I mean your heart just seemed to light in a little bit with that self-assurance that she didn’t disappear from your life.

Daphne: 15:36

Not even close, not even close. And I think everyone’s faith journey and in their belief systems sustain them in different ways. So I might feel like she’s an angel on my shoulder. Somebody else might say, you know, it just the ability to recall and reflect on our relationship, even the hard parts of it, right. Not just all the fun, you know, sitting by the lake, getting too much sun giggling into the night, you know, all the music that we love that just makes my husband cringe, all those things and the harder parts to write some hard things that we went through together, or we witnessed in each other’s lives. Um, but yeah, it’s that idea that spiritually, I feel like she’s with me still.

Bunny: 16:34

Well, thank you. Thanks. Thanks for sharing that, that gift, because I know, I mean this, you know what I want, what I want people to hear that I’ve learned is that, you know, you don’t just get gratitude and then life is perfect. You know, it’s just like, you know, some people think that once I’m, once I find the right person, once I’m financially secure, once I finished my, you know, I thought that once I got my college degree life would change. Well, the truth is life continues to be tricky every single day. And it’s more of, I mean, it’s so simple, it’s, you know, it’s more of how you see it and how you perceive it than anything else. And that’s one of the things that we touched on a little bit last time we talked was how gratitude. And , and one of the things we talked about with our last guest was how pain and gratitude, both build resilience. And she used the same phrase that you just used about self compassion . And it seems like they’re all really intertwined if we can be compassionate with ourselves. But if we can also give ourselves a lot of grace and be really grateful, but honest about how we perceive things. I mean, I think that leads to resiliency, but I’m not the expert you are. So tell us what you think about resilience.

Daphne: 18:03

So I think, I don’t remember if we spoke to this exactly in our last conversation, but my favorite definition of resilience is struggling well.

Bunny: 18:11

We didn’t, but what a , wow, what a , I’m writing it down right now.

Daphne: 18:15

And, You know, it’s something that I, it, for me, I like that definition because it’s something that transcends what country you live in or what your nationality is, your gender, your race, whatever it happens to be, right? Life is filled with struggles. You know, your first day of preschool, you know, your first day of college, you know, you’re going to a new job , uh, finding your way in a town that you’ve never been to losing a loved one. And so we’re going to have them write choice points, change points, all kinds of different things. And the, I , the, the idea of resilience is can I do this pretty well? Yeah, there might be some bumps. I might step my toe metaphorically in something I love living in Santa Fe. I don’t regret my decision to move here with my husband at all. And there’ve been days that I have been profoundly lonely, right? I could just walk out and have a neighbor that knew all these things about me, right. Had understanding of me and that was gone. So really being in that, and, y ou k now, just being able to be honest with myself, that I’m lonely today. It’s just, I am. And so the idea of resilience is understanding that things are going to happen. And do I have the tools? Am I cultivating the tools in my life, all those things that are free that allow me to effectively ride the wave, if you will, right. Ride that wave, not f ight it, but ride it. And allow yourself some compassion, some grace, l eaning into vulnerability and connection. Some of those things do I have, am I eating well? Am I sleeping? Am I, you know, reaching out and connecting with someone that’s important to me that can help me all of these different tools that are so important that create resilience. And in that that’s that cultivation of gratitude that makes some of those things as you continue to do t hat easier.

Bunny: 20:40

So , um , I’m like, I, I almost can’t think straight, but it’s, it’s like, right. I love the idea of riding and not fighting the way, because that’s exactly the way that you , um, you’re, you’re able to surf well, right? So the way that you can successfully learn to surf, I’m sure is, you know, you paddle out and you stand up and then you figure out how to ride the wave, rather than trying to cut through it. It’s sort of like , I know that Johanna just read the book Burnout. And one of the things that they talk about is that in order to – in order to get through stress , you can’t go around it. You have to stay in the middle of it. You have to go, it’s like a cave. You can’t, you can’t turn around, back up, you can’t drill a hole and get to the top of the hill. You have to go all the way through it. And is that what you’re talking about when you talk about resiliency?

Daphne: 21:42

Yes. Absolutely. And I actually have a little sticker, you know, the best way out is always through and in our world. And I’m going to say right now, because I haven’t, to my knowledge lived in the past, we have a real strong desire to sort of skirt things that are, that are tougher emotions, right? We don’t, they’re hard. And so we figure that we can kind of go around it that, or we can do, you know , circumvent in some way that we don’t have to do it. The dilemma with that is you’re really just sort of stepping it down inside. You’re not allowing yourself to really fully process. And I think about, you know, years gone past a long time, I read an article that spoke to, you know, soldiers that were coming back from war or missionaries that were coming back from foreign countries, you know, difficult times. And they would be on a boat for, I don’t know , four or five, six weeks where they just had to be with themselves and process their thoughts. And they, this time to just sort of be not to do anything, just to be with the thing. And over time, it let them process at their pace. And when I was speaking to our speed of life , that’s a little bit of what I meant. It’s hard to ride something. If you can’t decide, I see this thing coming and how do I want to manage it? Right. How do I want to take that wave all the way in? And , and so that’s what we are. I think our world we’re struggling with, we want stuff to be quick and things don’t get to be quick.

Bunny: 23:36

And part of it is that things, I think we feel that things have to be quick because life moves so quickly. And , uh , you know, I don’t know about you, but my, my, the list of things that I’ve either promised my not mostly promised myself, promised other people I’ll accomplish is so long that I’m , I think to myself, well, you know, my good friend Bob died, but I don’t have time to stop and think about it very much because, or , you know, my friend Lynn died. I, you know, I don’t have to… I don’t take the time to honor it because I feel like I have all these obligations elsewhere. And I think it’s important to figure out that I have an obligation to meet as well.

Johanna: 24:19

Yeah. And sometimes it feels like you can’t ride through the first thing, you know, take the time to ride through it because the second thing is coming already too quickly. Like the next wave is coming. So I think that’s probably what you’re feeling too. It’s like, there’s so many things all the time.

Bunny: 24:36

T here’s a lot of waves.

Daphne: 24:40

Yeah. And one of the questions I frequently asked my clients is, you know, where are you in this equation? Because when I think about Benny , what you just said, I’ve got all these, I’ve got these two dues , and I w I want to do this thing. And I’ve got this book and I’m going to go here and I’m going to do the thing. And it’s all about the doing, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Right? We wouldn’t get anything accomplished if we didn’t have some of it. We’re talking about a polarity, right? Two interdependent things that exist together. It’s like Dolly Parton says, laughter through tears is my favorite emotion. And I love that statement because it doesn’t negate the doing part. We still have to get up and make our breakfast and our coffee. Right. The dilemma is, there’s a difference between being sad and having all the emotions and finding your gratitude and being depressed. I mean, there’s an important distinction of , you know, there’s a choice point. Is this the time that I need to find a professional? What we’re really talking about are people that are hanging out in a place of, there’s some sadness. I need to feel, you know, a person that I know well, after my cousin died and there was a service for her. It was in Chicago and she said, it’s too bad, but at least you got to have a funeral. And that takes me back to a little bit of some of the work that we Brene Brown has done, where she calls it, the sill service , silver lining something. Right. That, yeah. The in find this connection that, that, and this kind of goes to some of the emotion piece that you and I have had conversations about is that just honoring where somebody is, right. That also allow that is another way to help them in their resilience and finding their gratitude. Wow. That sounds hard. I don’t have words, but you know what? I love you. And I’m with you .

Johanna: 26:42

That’s when she, sorry. That’s like when she talks about the difference between sympathy and empathy, right? Like you’re over there. And , uh, well, I guess that sucks for you, but, but empathy would be like putting yourself in that person’s shoes and feeling those hard things that we really don’t want to feel.

: 27:01

Well. And I would go out on a limb. This is really simple stuff for me, but , um, I , you know, a lot of people have said to me , well, you know, I don’t want to call them . I don’t want to call him . Cause I don’t know what to say. I don’t want to go to their house because I don’t know what I’m supposed to say. When someone loses someone, you know, I hate to go to the funeral and I wrote a blog post called always go to the funeral because it is not about what you say. I got to tell ya , I’m not ever going to say something to you, Daphne, that’s going to make you feel better about losing your cousin. But if I stand next to you and I say, I’m right here. I don’t know what else to be, except right here. I think that’s a big deal. And, and I don’t do it because I have any particular insight . I do it because I was raised that way. And, and you know, I, you know, I know how to make a casserole and take it to dinner. And I think that people who step back, because they’re afraid that they can’t be empathetic or sympathetic either one who stepped back and say, well, you know, I don’t know. I don’t know what to do. So I’m just going to leave them alone are missing the point. And the point is that that they’re going to be grateful that you showed up. Not that you said, you know, Johanna did something really hard recently her best friend lost her brother. And, and it, wasn’t easy to load up and go to Eastern, New Mexico with her baby and go to that service. But I was so proud that, you know, she didn’t know what to say. She just went.

Johanna: 28:41

Cause you taught me to do that. Well, if you don’t know what to do,

Daphne: 28:46

It kind of gets to, you know, when you are afraid of an emotion of being with somebody right there, there is an instinct frequently that I have to fix it, right? There’s this sense of responsibility that if I’m going to be in the presence of somebody that’s had a difficult diagnosis or the brother of a best friend has passed, which, you know , by extension probably means that she had a great relationship with this person, right? I mean, there’s a lot of complicated feelings there and people often think they have to fix, and it’s really not about fixing. And this is an important piece of resilience, right? It’s just about, just about, I say that. So cavalierly, it is about creating connection, right? I am going to go and hold a space for someone to feel the way they need to feel in that moment to let them process it, to honor them, to provide some grace in this time. That’s so confusing so that they can work through it. They can struggle. Well, they can struggle well.

Johanna: 30:02

Yeah, it kind of what we’ve been talking about too , makes me think of, you know, what I know about resilience is , um, uh, from working with kids and just my career that, you know, resilience part of it is what you’re born with. Those resiliency factors and part of it you can accumulate and build up. But a lot of it is it also determines how certain traumas and things affect us. So the same exact event could happen to you and then happened to me and the way that we’re going to deal with it or be affected by it can be completely different. I mean that even, and other studies where that happens, you know, with twins or siblings in the same household are going to experience an event totally different in a totally different way because of the resilience they’ve built up or the resiliency factors that they’ve grown up with. So I just think that’s important to talk about too, because a lot of times we’ll see people in a situation, you know, that we think we might handle better or deal with better. And we’re like, well, why are they so upset by that? Or why is that like affecting them or why isn’t that affecting them so much? Um, and I just think it’s important to like , know that and not to judge people by how they’re dealing with something. And, you know, that goes, I think that just kind of is a lot of what we’re talking about too and having self-compassion and compassion for others too.

Daphne: 31:29

Well, 40%, right. We , we are born with that set point. We know that. And about 40% of what happens for us is , uh , is our ability to respond to it right. Or react to it. And I think one of the things about, you know , creating our own resilience and , and basically we’re having two conversations, how do we create it in ourselves? And how do we give people space to create their own? Because to your point about how they react or they don’t react, those are our external perceptions of that person. We don’t know what’s going on in their internal landscape. And we know that there are, I’ve done this. So, I mean, I’ve been through so many iterations, I’m going to put on the happy face, right? I’m going to put on my smile, put on some lipstick. That’s what I was always told growing up, put on some lipstick, you’ll feel better.

Bunny: 32:24

Me too.

Daphne: 32:27

But you know, I mean, it’s a habit I’ve been indoctrinated with that. So that’s kind of anti resilience, candidly. I mean, there’s something to be gleaned from that take care of yourself. But the other part is let’s gloss over this thing that you think is bad. And we’re going to keep going. That part of it doesn’t necessarily help us always because I may be really having a hard time. And so that’s where just saying to somebody, I don’t know what you’re going through, but I just want you to know that I love you. I’m your friend and I’m here for you.

Bunny: 33:04

Well, I think what you were saying about , um, giving people the space to be. Space and grace, I mean, it seems like it’s , it’s, this , those are the two things. And, and, and it , and that kind of helps us , um, you know, we’re, we’re talking about resiliency, resilience, resiliency. I keep using, I mean, I don’t know how those words get interchanged, but they, they seem to mean the same thing. But , um, we, we certainly now , um, need to cultivate that more than ever. I , um, one of the things that I keep hearing from people over and over now is that we lived, we did it, we did 2020. We did COVID. We did all that fear and all that frustration and all that, staying at home and learning how to live with our spouses and our kids in the same space for months and months and months. And then we got this springtime in 2021, and we felt like we got our lives back. And suddenly we’re feeling defeated because it feels like we’re in a second wave and you know, what’s going to happen this winter. And, you know, somebody read a white paper that there’s another variant, that’s worse than the Delta. And, and I , I, I love to give our listeners a tiny little tool or at least an awareness that this is how we can be mindful and cope. But this is, these are small ways that we can figure out how to go forward from here. Because I don’t know if you’re like me, I’m thinking, I’m thinking selfish thoughts. I’m thinking I don’t want to put off a vacation for another year. I, and I don’t want people to get sick. Somebody that I knew as a child, I’ll tell you, Daphne, the first guy I ever wrote on the Ferris wheel at the county fair, died yesterday of COVID. And I haven’t, you know, I haven’t seen him in 50 years, but it just makes me sad that here we are facing another wave of what feels defeating in our world. Not, not in our corner of the world, but in the entire world. I mean, what, how did , what, what, what can you give us?

Daphne: 35:34

You know , this has been coming up with my clients, my coaching clients a lot lately , and certainly my friends and family. I have a daughter that’s getting married in Seattle, Washington in two and a half weeks. We’re putting individually wrapped face masks in the goodie bags. Can you imagine if somebody had said to me a year and a half ago, oh, this is gonna , you know , along with the honey and the, this, this goodie and that goodie , you’re going to be putting a face mask. But here’s what I go back to. And I was making a little bit of light there, but this is serious. This is a serious conversation because what I have been going back to, and I’ve been talking to people, you know, family members that are older than me what was it like to get through the depression? You know, people that have lived in war torn countries for years at a time.

Bunny: 36:33

Or like my, my family that lived through the dust bowl, I mean, they had wave upon wave upon wave upon wave of, of dirt and wind. And then it didn’t get better for years.

Daphne: 36:47

For years, for years. And so I think that, I think there’s a context thing that has not has to happen, but there is a piece of context here that , is important to at least at some level integrate into your thinking because in our country, we have been very, very blessed. We have an embarrassment of riches, right? We have everything. Boop , it’s pretty quick. And trust me, I’ve had my issues, everything that you’re saying, I’m like, yes, I am there with you. And what I also know is that this is not a problem to be solved the way we might solve some of our other smaller problems. This is a large complex problem that has somehow immeshed public health and politics. You know, wherever you sit, right? Where do you get your information? But, you know, we’ve been through, you know, previous generations have been through some really difficult times and this happens to be our defining difficult time. And so I think that in terms of resilience, regardless of where you stand on any of the things I just brought up, it really does get down to the most basic elements. Am I taking care of myself? Am I reaching out and talking to people that I love and can speak to candidly about what I’m feeling without thinking that I’m being judged or someone to fix, right. I just need to be in this moment today. How can I live my S my life for this moment today and not be projecting into what is going to be in six months? Because we don’t know. I mean, this is at time of uncertainty. We have metaphorically left the water’s edge. We don’t see the land right now. And given that I am in this boat, what do I want to do with my time in my day? What sustains me and really asking yourself that question, because for every person that’s going to be a little bit different, because right now we don’t really know when we’re going to come through this. And so it does get back to all the basic tenants of, of what’s important to cultivate resilience in your life, your faith, your spirituality, maybe it’s religion, taking care of yourself, counting your blessings , um, connecting with people that are important to you , uh, doing, you know, take walking and being outside and, you know , soaking up nature, all of these really basic things , that can feel like they’re just such throw away activities. And they’re not. I also think, and I think this is important is that it’s, it’s really some people who are more introverted perhaps are managing this in a way that is much more difficult for more extroverted people. You know, my son is very extroverted. He lives by himself. It , this has been really hard. And that’s where that grace and compassion for others that, you know, it’s been hard for me maybe, but for others, they’ve taken it in a much more devastating, difficult way, just because they’re more extroverted or they’re single, or they’re, you know, who knows what the story is. They’ve lost their best friend. They’ve lost somebody to COVID and really asking yourself, what does it mean to extend that person, grace, and, and my willingness to stand with them without a solution, just to be with them. And it may be long distance. Right. But, and that’s a super long-winded answer. And I apologize for that, but I think all of those components are part of it.

Bunny: 41:08

No, and I think it’s important. And I also , I love how you said we’ve left the water’s edge. I mean, we can’t, we can’t see the land. We don’t know where the end is. We don’t know what’s going to happen. And so this, it, it reminds me , um, that when I was sick and the very first day that we went to see the oncologist and I wrote about it, the book we went by the church and my pastor said a prayer. And he didn’t say all the things that all the Baptist preachers in my past had said, which was, you know, we pay, we pray for healing and he didn’t put his hand on me and say, God heal this person. He said, put blinders on her so that she can only see the one thing in front of her. And it was so powerful. It really, you know… I think that should be another book is only see the one thing in front of you because projecting and, you know, I’m involved with the cancer foundation and we spend a lot of time talking about, well, do we get to have a virtual or a , or an in-person event next February, which funds a huge portion of our budget and our operating expenses. And I just sometimes think, you know what, here’s, what’s in front of us first, we’ve got to gather the items. Then we’ve got to set the deadlines. Then we , if we have to pivot in the middle of it, then we have to pivot. But at the moment we only need to do the next thing in front of us. And , um, that’s, that was such a hard lesson for me, because I wanted to think about, well, what happens if I die next year? You know, what happens if I don’t get to see my grandchild? What happens if I don’t get to see Johanna graduate from college, there was this, all this space taken up in my head by projecting and you know what, none of that stuff happened. I didn’t die here. I am.

Daphne: 43:08

Most things we worry about, aren’t the things that happen.

Bunny: 43:11

You’re right. I wonder what the percentage is . I mean, yeah.

Daphne: 43:17

I mean, I guess the biggest thing is we want some certainty. We want answers, right. And that’s sort of what you’re speaking to. And in many ways, pre-COVID we had, we thought we had some certainty and we thought we had answers and maybe we did , maybe we didn’t, but this is asking us to be emotionally agile.

Bunny: 43:41

Wow. I’ve got to write that down too.

Daphne: 43:43

Right. It’s it’s asking us to be emotionally agile and that’s, that is digging deep. That’s digging deep.

Bunny: 43:53

What , what’s the first step do you think?

Daphne: 43:55

I think the first step is, and we just said, we spoke to this a second ago is I think the first step is you have to, you don’t have to do anything, but to allow yourself to breathe and really stop, and whether it’s prayer or meditation or reflection, right. Whatever it is for you in your life to that is invite that. And because that is, that is, those are the right that blinder that your pastor was speaking to a little bit of… I may not know what’s going to happen for me in three months, but what is my next step right now today? Because , you know, I want to be able to do this thing, like a friend of mine whose daughter is getting married in October in a church. So my daughter’s getting married outside. There are a lot of mitigating factors that are going to make it an okay event, even with what’s going on her, daughter’s getting married in a church and she was like, I’m going to lose my, you know, what, if she has to walk down the aisle in a mask. And I have a lot of compassion for that individual, I really, really do. And that is way out there. So that in that prayer and that meditation in that spiritual reflection moment, what do I need to do to take care of myself today, to meet the challenges of this moment? And I’ll worry about the next step after this moment, once I’ve gotten through this moment.

Bunny: 45:45

Wow. I don’t have any words except, except I believe, you know, I believe that wholeheartedly . And yet when you make that decision to live that way, you still have to remind yourself every single day, every moment, this is a Natalie Goldberg quote. And she said, every moment is enormous. And it’s all we have. I mean, I may go get in the car and somebody may hit . I mean, I may miss the bridge today. And, and we talk, I, in fact, always set up these contingency plans, you know, Johanna knows my passwords, you know, Toby knows how to get into this stuff on my computer. So I always think I, I could miss the bridge today. And , uh, so I need to do all the next right things because until I miss the bridge, I want to keep living my life. Oh , it sounds really simple, but you have to remind yourself all the time that these are the, this is the moment we have right this second. Um, and, and trying to figure out where we’re going to be with COVID in six months or even two months, doesn’t get us anywhere because we don’t know. And we really do want a lot of certainty. I love the idea of being the most emotionally agile. I, you know, and I, you know, we’ve talked a lot, you know, for years we’ve been talking about emotional intelligence and it feels to me like, that’s, that’s, that’s a huge piece of it . Am I wrong?

Daphne: 47:20

Oh, no. I think if you look at some of the basic early models, Daniel Goldman, who wrote the book 40 years ago, that kind blew everybody’s mind, right? He said, Hey, there are these things and their emotions. And it’s not just this thing that is gender based . Everybody has them. And some of them, we have cell receptors for some emotions. And the beautiful thing about emotions. And I could talk about this forever is that, that it’s not a box of five or eight colors. Like , you know, like kids get at the restaurants, mad, happy, sad, glad… You know, those things, it’s a box of 64 and, you know, I can be happy. That can be joyful. It can be content. It can be you know, balanced for me. I can also be angry, has different kinds of things. And so, you know, being able to, we, I think we spoke to this briefly is creating your language for emotions. It allows you to have that agility, because if you can begin to recognize that, you know what, this emotion, isn’t a pure anger thing, right. I have a cocktail. So if you think about something like a first big event in your life, getting married, buying a car, buying a house, any of those things, you may be super excited about it. Maybe like, you know, somebody finds out that they’re pregnant and they’re also like, what? Right. So it’s both happening at the same time. So it’s, it’s cocktails, right? It’s like these crazy cocktails. And I think that that’s part of why going back to your breath and the prayer or the meditation is so important because that gives you the space in this moment to say, you know what? I am, I’m uncertain, but I’m disappointed about, you know, cause I’m gonna miss something, a family reunion that I have never missed in my life and I’m angry. And so that’s my cocktail today. That is my cocktail. And so given that that’s my cocktail, what do I want to invite into my life? What do I want to do to shift my perspective? You know, there are a lot of different kinds of questions that you can ask yourself to be intentional. It goes back to the mindfulness, right? So that you can be resilient.

Bunny: 49:46

And I don’t think , and I could be wrong because this feels like something I’ve learned really late in life. I don’t think that people get that they can invite, they can invite specific things into their life and they don’t have to have , I mean, you don’t have to accept every single thought that comes into your mind.

Daphne: 50:05

Well, and I hope you don’t, they’re just thoughts. They’re just thoughts. Yeah, for sure. And you know, it’s a practice, right? And it’s an intentional thing that takes some space and the rewards are fantastic. If you’re willing, the rewards are really amazing. It doesn’t take away all the pain, but it gives you so much more space. It opens up your dance floor, right. It gives you so much more space to maneuver with these things. Um, you know, because literally, and I, that’s what I always take it to you , have you ever bought a house? Have you ever found out you’re pregnant? Have you ever, you know, think about that excitement and that joy and that excitement. And you’re like, and then you’re like, oh, I don’t know how to fix plumbing, or I don’t know how to what’s a carburetor. You know ? I mean, all those silly things that kind of pop up, they’re just emotional feelings,

Johanna: 51:14

Man. Daphne, you need to write a new book with all these quotes and your sayings. They’re like – light bulb, light bulb.

Bunny: 51:22

I know! I mean, when you said it opens up your dance floor and gives you room to maneuver, I thought, what? I h ave t o, I’ve got it. That’s another one of those things. I’ve got to put it on, on my mirror so I can read it in the morning. But I remember when I read, Eat, Pray, Love for the first time. And she talked about how she had learned that her mind was a safe Harbor and that she was only g oing t o let ships come into that Harbor that nourished her and that improved her life and that weren’t defeating. So, you know, the ship of, of self-defeat or the ship of, anger from somebody else that she didn’t have to accept, she was like, they’re not coming. They’re not staying in my Harbor. And I thought that’s a really good visual for me because I work in a world and you work in a world. We all live in a world where there’s a whole lot of stuff going on outside of our head that we don’t have to. I mean, certainly it’s going t o filter through and we can recognize that we talked about this last time. You can certainly recognize those thoughts. You don’t have to wallow in them. And, I’m probably not saying this is eloquently as either you or J ohanna would say, because you’re so much more w ell-trained in this, but they don’t have to control our perspective. They’re just there.

Daphne: 52:52

Everything is a choice point. It’s hard to believe, hard to believe. It’s hard to believe sometimes. Right. But I have a choice in everything. I may not like the circumstance of what COVID is bringing to me right now. In fact, I will tell you personally, I really irritated. So that’s another emotion, right? I’m irritated . Right . and then the choice point becomes for me, okay, I can be irritated. And what do I want to do with that? And, you know, ask irritation, what are you trying to tell me? And maybe it’s that, you know what? I need to get myself outside and walk around my block, which for me is almost a mile. So maybe that’s what I just need to do. And I have a choice. I have a choice. And that’s, that is often, I think we could do a whole podcast on that. Right? It’s I don’t, you hear people say all the time, but I don’t have a choice in this.

Bunny: 53:51

That’s so Interesting because , I have a new writing coach and I said to her, it’s like with this, with all this stuff with COVID and you know, I’m taking over as the board chair of the foundation, I was giving her all these really, really excuses. I was thinking, you know, I used to write a thousand words a day and now I’m excited if I write a paragraph or you know, part of it is, I think I just got this coach. And so now I’m resistant to responding her and , and she said, I’m going to give you a real tip. This is my best tip. Just do something, go for a walk. She said, it’s, it’s astounding. What will happen if you get up and move around? And if you can’t go for a walk, you know, if you live in a place where you can’t go for a walk, get up and stretch, get up and breathe, do a thing besides sitting and thinking. I don’t have a choice. Is that oversimplification ?

Daphne: 54:50

No. In fact, so I did some work , with some, a somatic coach to add to my practice. And that means understanding and using your body, which is what she’s speaking too right? And there was this great little thing that I use that I learned , from Stuart Heller that I’ve used with clients, individuals, and I do it in leadership, organizational cohorts. And I like it because you can say it quietly, like a prayer. You can say it, you know, on your way up an elevator, walking in , whatever, “I have legs and feet, I have arms and hands. I have a spine and head and I breathe.” And I think what that speaks to it’s, you can do it like for a second, you can do it for five minutes. It’s it’s really portable is the way I would say it. But it speaks to what your writing coach was telling you is that we get really caught up in our minds, in our heads, like we’re in this little loop thing and inviting your body to the game. So big, right?

Bunny: 55:57

There’s Another one of those phrases inviting your body to the game.

Daphne: 56:02

Because it’s there anyway.

Bunny: 56:06

Well, in our last podcast, our guests talked about, she was, she was in a car accident where she found herself in a burning car and broke most of the bones on the right side of her body. And she’s now a somatic coach. And she says that part of her gratitude practice is to wake up every morning and start at the tip of her feet and say to her toes, thank you so much. She said, and sometimes it takes four seconds and sometimes it takes 10 minutes to go through my body at you. And you raised your hand. Is that something that you do?

Daphne: 56:46

And I take walks where.. I mean, look at what our bodies do for us. We have each other, we cook meals, we write emails, we go on walks , and many peace , many things that our bodies do, we don’t even think about. And so , um, it’s, it’s a gift that we’ve been given to utilize in pursuit and cultivation of our resilience. It’s there to help us cultivate our resilience. Let’s use our body. It is here. It is a God-given gift. Right. And for those of us that have use of both hands and both feet , um, and can bend, you know, in hinge and get on a bike or take a walk.

Bunny: 57:39

Wow is right. And I’m going to use that, invite your body to the game. It’s there already. I have to stop being in my head all day .

Daphne: 57:56

Yeah. I mean, it’s, and that’s what we’re talking about is coping with uncertainty is what COVID is. I mean, there’s a lot of other ways to talk about it, but it’s coping with uncertainty. And so what is it that allows me to cope in such a way that I’m struggling well? That I’m cultivating my resilience? That I’m feeling? In fact, I was listening to a woman who teaches yoga classes on the Peloton app the other day. And she was talking about filling yourself up while you’re pouring yourself out, which I was like, wow. You know, that’s not anything I could’ve ever thought of on my own, but that’s a little bit of what we’re speaking to specifically with COVID is we have to be conscious about filling ourselves up because we are pouring. I mean, it just takes, you know, it’s just hard. I want to get on a plane and go visit my son who now lives in New York city. I don’t feel comfortable doing that. And I’m like, grrr.. So , you know, just being cognizant of that’s, what’s going on for me. And it’s not forever, it’s gonna feel like it, but it’s not. And so in the meantime, what can I do to support myself, to give myself compassion, to create a space of grace?

Bunny: 59:12

And to struggle? Well, it’s a struggle. Wow. Well, well now we’re going to have to have you back so that we can talk more about emotions and being emotionally agile, but Daphne, thank you so much for, I mean, we’ve packed a lot in here, but I love the idea of filling yourself up while you’re pouring yourself out, because we all tend to give a lot of ourself away without refilling. So there’s a lot of takeaways here. I can. I just, thank you. I , it’s so amazing again, to talk to you and , we are going to go on that walk soon.

Daphne: 59:57

Yeah, I know. I keep looking at your pictures and I just want to say thank you, cause this is like, these are the things that I love to speak to and to share with the world. This is my purpose and mission. And it’s, it’s a joy.

Johanna: 1:00:15

Thank you, Daphne .

Bunny: 1:00:18

Well, thank you so much. Yeah, we’ll do it again. That’s all we’ve got today. Friends. I want to thank you for joining the life-saving gratitude podcast with your host Bunny Terry that’s me and my producer and assistant Johanna Medina. We feel like we’re in the business of sharing the stories that save us and we hope you’ll share as well by letting your friends and family know about the podcast follow and like us wherever you listen. And please take the time to leave a review, whether it’s a stellar comment or a suggestion, we are open to suggestions all the time. Also follow us on Instagram at lifesavinggratitudepod. You can also follow me personally at bunnyterrysantafe. You can sign up a t my website at bunnyterry. com to receive weekly emails about how to become the ultimate gratitude nerd. Thanks so much for checking in