The Art of Living Fearlessly: Barbara McCulloch

Bunny : 0:01

Hi there and welcome to the lifesaving gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry , and I’m joined by my co-host and producer Johanna Medina. And today we’re talking to Barbara McCulloch. Barbara is a visual artist. She’s a painter who lives in Santa Fe. She and I met online and then met in person because she donated something to a non- profit, the Cancer Foundation for New Mexico that my listeners know I’m in incredibly involved in and dedicated to. But what as, as another donor said to me recently there are no coincidences, Barbara and I did meet by coincidence. She is a powerhouse of art and gratitude and learning. She is not a spring chicken by the world’s standards, but let me tell you, in terms of learning, how to make an impact and how to change the lives of other people, she is, she’s a force in her field and she talks a lot about , um, weaving together the strands of your life and learning how to wrap your life around a spiritual core at the same time that you give and give and give back. She is energetic. She’s interesting. She’s smart. And I, I can’t believe my good fortune that I got to meet her. I want you to stay stick around till the end, because she gives us a tip at the end that you’re going to find it amazingly lifesaving . I’m putting it to work right now. It’s she talks about the art of living fearlessly and Barbara knows about living fearlessly. She liked me was married three times before she found her fourth amazing partner. She was very successful professionally at the same time that her inner life was in shambles and 20 years ago, she was in a space where she was praying for her life to end. So, and , and now she’s changing lives every single moment. So take a listen. I want you to be inspired. And then , um, we’ll have some links to her artwork, to the programs that she’s involved in, that you can also get involved in. She said that her seventies are her decade of living fearlessly. So today I suggest you live fearlessly and , um, have as big an impact as you can. But remember that the biggest impact you, you can possibly give the world is on yourself. Thank you for checking in thanking for being a part of our audience. And I’d asked that you like us, you subscribe and you review us wherever it is that you listen to your favorite podcasts . Our listenership is growing every single day. And I know it’s because we all understand that gratitude really can be a superpower. Thanks for being here. Hi there, everyone. I want to introduce you today to , um, a new friend that I believe is going to be a long time friend, Barbara McCullough . And I met on Instagram of all places. I admired some of her artwork. She responded to some of my posts, and then she offered to donate a painting to the cancer foundation for New Mexico. And I, as always, when somebody offers to donate something, I made an appointment to run by and say, thank you. And it was apparent to me. I don’t know about you Barbara, but it was apparent to me in the first five minutes that we were to use a seventies phrase, soulmates , almost, almost twins separated at birth, but Barbara is an amazing painter, but she also has, a story that I know is going to really inspire our lifesaving gratitude listeners. So Barbara, tell us, just tell us a little bit about yourself. You have a fascinating background that led you to this art practice, but you, you also have some other other interesting, u m, b ut there’s an interesting part of your history. That’s going to be really important to our listeners, I think.

Barbara: 4:59

Thank you, Bunny. I appreciate this so much every now and then I get an opportunity to tell my story. And as I’ve done that for over 20 years for 20 years, one of the things that comes to me is that thread of life that has run through everything and 20 years ago, all of the pieces that made up me that I recognized were complete prior to 20 years ago, those pieces were fractured and separate, and didn’t, didn’t talk to each other. And 20 years ago I got sober. Okay. So that’s a big part of my story. And at that point, it was, it was a sudden experience because of what had happened. And I can tell you about that in a little bit, but from that point on the four threads that I see are my personal relationships, my work life, which is art, which brings nature in alcoholism is a third part. And my spiritual life, my, the glue that’s holding me together. And when you were talking about, you were talking, we were talking about habits earlier. One of the habits that I have now is prayer. I mean, 20 years ago, I was at the depths of alcoholism. I was saying a prayer, the first sincere prayer I had said, since I was 12 years old, and I was praying to that, I couldn’t do this anymore. And I was praying to have a heart attack. I waited, nothing happened. I prayed then just put me in a coma. And then I prayed, just take my life. And at that point I had an experience. That’s right. That’s exactly right. I laugh and say, God misunderstood me, because what happened is, is truly, and I’m not a preacher. You know, I’m not, I’m not a Pulpit Thumper, but what had happened at that point, my chest caved into my spine and all of the air left. And I felt a cool rush of air come in. And I felt this peaceful thing come over me. And in my brain, the little words in my head said, this is God. Now this was not what I expected. But what happened from that time is I got a change of perspective and the pieces of my life gradually came together. And it was like I say, it was like jumping , hitting a trampoline at the pit of hell, coming up and grabbing onto the top of that hole and getting a little glimpse of light. It didn’t propel me into the life I had. It gave me hope. And at that moment, what I did was I said, I need help. And then, then that, that was like a spiritual experience, you know? And I needed to make a decision. Do I accept it? Do I go back down the hole ? Do I find another way to end my life. And it wasn’t so much that I wanted to die. I just couldn’t live that way anymore. Not one more day. I had, I had run out of answers. I had run out of solutions. I’d run out of my business, my money, my opportunities, everything was gone at that point due to alcoholism. And so when I tell my story, what I want to offer is hope not everyone has to go to the depth that I did, but what I discovered, one is alcoholism is progressive and you can get off that train. Anytime. I also discovered that about 10% of people have the tendency to become addicted, almost anything. You know, alcohol is wonderful. If you put alcohol, if you put alcohol in front of 20 people, 18 of them can drink it every day and never have a problem. They can use it for all of the wonderful benefits that alcohol has to reduce our inhibitions and make us more comfortable. So we can have a little more fun. And two of those people are gonna say, Hey, that’s great. I’d like another one. And then, then for a while they go, well, maybe, maybe I’ll stop after three. And I have 30 years of controlling it. And I, I didn’t realize until I looked back on my life, that that control was diminishing. It was harder and harder and harder to control it. My three drinks became six drinks as the tolerance built up and one day and I called it like a dimmer switch. One day, the dimmer switch broke and I had the bad thought came in. Okay. That said, well, you don’t have to wait for friends to go dancing and, and, you know, relax. You don’t have to wait. You don’t have to wait. You don’t have to put up with this discomfort. You can do it yourself. And that bottle of wine that had been sitting on the counter that I was waiting for friends to come over. I said, well, I can sit here at the end of work, do my books and pour myself a nice little glass of wine. And from that decision became a habit. That habit was I had at that point, I had had a gallery. I was making a lot of money. It was in a tourist town. And the other artists in town had boxes of wine on their counter so that when the art show happened and the customers came in at the end of the day, Hey, let’s have a little, you know, let’s have a little drink. So I thought, well, that’s a great idea. And so my box of wine became bottles of wine in the little refrigerator for the sandwiches, held the beer. And before long the coffee that I was around with one day, I said, they’ve invented flavored coffees. What that means is I can have Khalua at work and pouring my coffee. And oh , wow . From, from the time that I said I can do this, I had controlled my life with an iron fist to that point. And from the time that I said, I can do this for the next seven years, I gave up control of my life to alcohol completely. It told me when to drink and how much to drink. I went shopping by percentage. When I look at the wines, it was well, that’s only 10 and a half percent. And so I didn’t shop by quality or taste. It was the effect. And that’s what distinguishes an alcoholic and then a person with.

Bunny : 12:54

Okay, no, I just wanted to , you know, for our listeners, I want to say, that is the difference. Isn’t it? Between somebody who might not become addicted in somebody who does. I dated somebody who was in recovery once and he said, you know, it’s when alcohol becomes the controlling force in your life, when he said, I sit across the table from you and you have a glass of wine at dinner, and you might leave half of the glass, you might leave it half empty. Cause you’re done. He said, I just look at it. And I’m like, how can she, how can she, how can she leave that empty it’s or how can she leave a little in the glass? Like, I guess if you’re, I mean, that’s what people need to understand is if it is the controlling force in your life, that’s an issue.

Barbara: 13:47

It is an issue. And it’s at that point, you’ve given up your life or it’s taken it over because it’s a very subtle point where that happens, but normal drinkers, 80%, 90% of people out there can go out and say, I’ve had a lousy date . I’m going to go get dirty faced. Okay, well, listen , I’m going to get drunk as a skunk. Okay. And they can do that. And they can do that every day for a month. And at the end of the month, they can say, well, that was enough. An alcoholic can’t do that. It goes, we were missing some processing chemicals in our brain. And for a long time, we can get by and make choices. But for any listener out there, that’s looking at their drinking patterns. And if they’re saying I’m drinking, when I don’t want to, I’m drinking, I’m leaving the party drunker than I wanted to. You know, I wore a pretty dress. I got nice shoes on. And I then tend to just to have three drinks and I drank too much. And when that becomes habitual, it’s also a signal that the ability in our brain, those chemicals in our brain are deteriorating. Those chemicals that can process alcohol and dispel it don’t. And so we continue to absorb all of those, all of the alcohol and , you know, it becomes, it becomes addictive. There’s a long period of time where it’s very easy to get help and say, gee, I think I’ll go into rehab. I think I’ll go into AA. Gee , I think I’ll talk to a counselor and really be honest and say, I’m having a problem controlling how much I drink . And it’s that one word can save someone’s life control. Are you controlling it? Are you losing control or does it control you? And it’s, it’s like that dimmer switch.

Bunny : 16:12

So, so tell me about how your life changed after that. I mean, if we’re talking about hope, you you’re a picture of hope and I wish that our listeners could see you visually because, and we’ll put up, we’ll have some, some screenshots, but for those of you who are listening, Barbara is a very visual person because she’s moving her hands all the time. She’s talking and she’s giving us illustrations , um, that that’s, that’s the artist in you, but tell people what happened at , after that. I mean, your life was one way you thought you wanted to die, and then you made a choice. You asked for help and you got it.

Barbara: 16:54

I got it. And what had, what happened to the rest of my life, in those other threads that finally came together? The only way that came together was I made a choice that I would take advice. I made a choice to ask for help. I got involved in a 12 step program. I said, yes. I said, yes. I said, yes. And yes, became a habit. Because I started trusting people up until that point, I had come from a life where there was abuse. Um, there was just terrible relationships. And I learned that my safety was I’d be able to protect my safety. If I did not let other people into me, I had relationships with a lot of them, but they weren’t healthy because I’d made poor choices, some alcohol, some, because I never learned how so after that point, it was as if my brain said, you got to wake up, you know, you deserve to be the best human being you can be. So that, and those words. So that is what happened to me that day it’s that I needed to work and do the best art that I could so that I could transmit joy to someone else before that it was so that I could pay the bills. It was all about satisfying my basic needs. I had to pay the bills I had to , um, I had to pay the bills and that was what making art was about. And so my art was, it was, how would I say manipulative? Isn’t the right word, but it was strategic. It’s like, okay, so holidays coming up, I’m going to do something, do something so that I can maximize my profits. And I was a business woman. I had a great business, but my drinking ruined it for me because I wasn’t able to participate in it after I got sober on October 8th, 2001, yeah. Etched in my memory. All of a sudden I said, you know, I need to let this go. I need to let someone else fully have it. I had already turned over a portion of my business to some friends. And I said, no, I have things in my heart. I was starting to access my heart. So I was going from my head to my heart and it was just pouring out in my work. And I was having these ideas and these passions, how I could use my work to help people and things started happening. I received, I received from money from unexpected source that funded a project, other things happen . And it was like, it was as if this spiritual relationship that I completely gave myself to supported me. And so that I could be free to be the best human I could be, you know? And my, my prayers began and they were like, they will be done because I was still clueless. I, I was not experienced at 55 years old. I was not experienced running my life. I was just simply running into the ground.

Bunny : 20:41

Can, I… so I want to let our listeners know that at this time that you made this choice to stop being strategic about your art so that it could be profitable. You were single, you were on your own. You were at there. Wasn’t another means of support as I understand it. And still because you got those four parts of your life, they started to be aligned. You still were supported financially by, by the world, by the universe, by God, by whatever higher power you believe in. I think that’s pretty amazing…

Barbara: 21:22

When I was in alignment, it was like, well, where did that come from? Where did that come from? And the things were supporting me work , not just for my benefit. They benefited me greatly because they were heart-centered. But they were also things that in my work I could do to help other people. And I created a series of work that went into different groupings. Oh, it’s hard . You know, it’s hard to , to explain that in words, but I was able to benefit other people with my work. And then I moved and I needed to leave the environment. But up until that point bunny from the time I was 15 years old, I was self-supporting with my own work. I was not able to go to college. I went right out of a family that I was terribly uncomfortable with, into a marriage, with a man who also who drank too much. And that taught me how to control it, but he also had a gambling addiction. And so I found a job that was an entry-level technical illustrator job in the aerospace industry. At 19 years old, I was fingerprinted by the FBI and got a secret clearance. And I started working for , um, job shops so that I, I was working as an independent contractor, putting my art skills out there in this, what I considered . It was a challenge to learn it. So that was interesting, but it didn’t have the freedom of sitting out in the woods and drawing trees, which was what, what I really love doing. But for 15 years I did that. And then I had was now single again, and still supporting myself and moved to Montana and built a pottery.

Bunny : 23:28

I want to give people you were talking about , in the aerospace industry. I want folks to know that that you were a contractor for NASA, right? I mean it’s so fascinating to me when we talk about that, because you, at a time when women were not necessarily involved in some of those scientific endeavors in the way that they are now, you just, you know, you’re somebody without a college degree, you go and get a job being a technical illustrator for NASA. And I found that. So , um, fascinating. And, it’s sort of , I almost don’t know how to process this piece, how to describe it, but you, while you were really, really self-sufficient in terms of your professional life, there still must have been some emotional spaces where you weren’t, self-sufficient, it’s sort of, there were really this, these disparate parts of you that weren’t coming together. Am I right? That’s correct.

Barbara: 24:35

Absolutely. Totally correct. I was, because I didn’t have a grounding in how to have healthy relationships and because my first choice was simply the first train out of town. Um, I didn’t learn how to have healthy relationship. I learned that people paid me money because I did good work. And so I did good work and made good money. And my world was wrapped up that small. And this work that I did for NASA, for aerospace companies. By the way, I can tell you now the secret project that I worked on never got launched it they called it mole man orbiting lab experiment. And I was on the toilet. Literally the toilet in space was what I was working on.

Bunny : 25:33

So it’s sort of pre space lab .

Barbara: 25:35

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There were other companies, there was, you know, Sperry flight systems and air research and Hughes aircraft, and anybody that needed a job done in a hurry. They would come, the employees in those factories would leave at the end of the day and they would send their work to a contractor. And I was a subcontractor . And so I had work, you know, and my, my requirement was to make sure it got on the airplane in the morning to Washington, the swipe pro program. Wow.

Bunny : 26:13

So Barbara, what I’m getting from this is that your exterior life can look incredibly successful while your interior life is in shambles. Right? I mean, it’s, I mean, I know that that’s true for me, but , um, I’m curious about whether that was true for you.

Barbara: 26:32

I was so emotionally shut down that I could not tell you one emotion from the other happy or sad. That was about somebody when I was 30 years old said to me, Barbara, I didn’t know you could talk. I just was. So, and now you can’t shut me up.

Bunny : 26:54

You and I can’t talk fast enough.

Barbara: 26:58

There’s a concrete example of the transformation for better or for worse. But today I am emotionally in touch, not with myself, but again, it’s a, so that it’s so that I can connect to other human beings, because if I make that connection to other human beings, there’s a spiritual energy that comes through us. That can be useful to someone else.

Bunny : 27:29

I think that’s what we’re doing right now. I mean, you and I have connected and we’ve created , um, this surprising. It seems like tandem stories that hope . I mean all I want to do is, is impact people with a story of hope. And that’s what you’re doing every day.

Barbara: 27:54

That’s what I’m making an effort to do. Every day . I’ve spent 18 years working with women in the field of alcoholism. I’ve been a speaker in the field of alcoholism in the field of art. I’ve taught women for the time. From the time I got sober working with them so that they could, I always say, I’m making the artists from the inside out because they would come to me and they would say, Barbara, show me how to make a tree. Show me how to make puffy clouds. You know, they had skillsets . They wanted, and I would look at the person and I would just know , I would just know what they needed was to go inside them, tap into their heart, tap into what they love into what, what are, what is their purpose? What do they want to see different in the world and apply that and start, start letting a person, see how powerful an artist can be. And so that’s the kind of teacher that I’ve been.

Bunny : 29:00

Well. And you’ve also been, you told me that you’ve been a sponsor for a lot of women in recovery. Does that cross over those, those emotional skill-sets? I mean, yeah. I mean, I know, you know what I’m trying to say, but…

Barbara: 29:19

Right , right. My coming together as a human being happened to because of the 12 step program. And because I accepted wrapping my life around a spiritual core, that’s, that’s what I needed to put the pieces together to allow the pieces to come together. I had to get out of the way, because it was a major ego problem if you want, because I was taking care of everything until alcohol took care of everything. And then when I broke, I broke open so beautifully. You know, I was that Humpty Dumpty. And then nobody, you wouldn’t want those pieces back together. I was the soft squishy hard-boiled egg now, you know, and that’s a , that was just a beautiful thing. And so when I got my act together, somebody came up to me that they were attracted to the recovery, and they said, can you help me? Can you help me with that program, that 12 step program, that, those ideas. And I said, of course, and that just led me down the most amazing road. I’ve worked with 50 different women in the 12 step program. And I’ve been able to witness not, not only, I would say maybe 35 of them that I still am aware of. Not only are they sober, they have wonderful family lives. Their jobs are better. Um, and it’s, it’s like, it just passed through me because I said, yes, and all I did was help them by following instructions. And if they accepted a spirit spiritual core of what that means, if you could talk about it in psychological terms and say, I’m going to have a reduction of my ego, because my ego is stopping me from being the best person I can be. And by opening up to accepting a spiritual core , you’re saying, I don’t know, maybe let’s see, you know, I’ll give it a shot. And you start saying yes to what feels right on the inside.

Bunny : 31:49

That’s such an interesting, I mean, we talk a lot, especially in coaching about saying no to things that , um, either don’t add to your life or, you know, especially , um, you know, young moms or young professional people who that, you know, you have to learn to say no, but I love the concept. And there is a movement out there, you know, say, say, yes, you know, you have to say yes for an entire day, but you’re saying what I hear is that it’s, you’re saying yes to a spiritual life, to a fuller life, to a more aware, alive, awake, and artful life, whether that’s painting or writing, or , um, you know, there are a lot of different ways to be an artist in your own life. But I love the idea of saying yes and I, I just read this great piece online, a writer that I follow said, we keep forgetting. We keep thinking that we have all the time in the world. We keep you, you think you have plenty of time. And , um, you had this spiritual experience before you got sober of, of wanting, wanting your life to end. And I had this, I consider it a bit of a spiritual experience when I was diagnosed and then got well, and you have to start, you have to realize that you don’t have time and you have to start saying yes to what, what what’s, what the art in your life is like, that’s a real simplistic way to get it. But , um…

Barbara: 33:31

I see it like a weaving Bunny. If we take all of the pieces, like we are a weaving. And if you take all of those threads in your life that have come together, you will never be duplicated in time or space. You know, you are incredibly unique. I’m incredibly unique. And if we can maximize all of the positive opportunities that come our way I mean, we have to say no to some opportunities, But you go, thy will be done, you know, or, or you take it today. God, you know ,

Bunny : 34:12

Well, and I think the right opportunity starts showing up, you know , um , three years ago, or four years ago, I never would have thought that I was either capable of, or had the time to be the board chair for the cancer foundation. I, you, during the pandemic got involved in a program. Um, and I’d like for folks to hear a little bit more about that, because you’ve, you’re, you’re, you’re growing exponentially in terms of your online presence and the way that you’re teaching and reaching out and impacting people. I, you know, we have to just start saying yes to the possibility that our life can be bigger and better.

Barbara: 34:55

That’s right. That’s right. I got involved in a business coaching program for women, but it was for heart centered women, women entrepreneurs, and it’s called the house of impact. And a year ago I ran into a free workshop, took the free workshop. It was on branding. It was on. And I thought, well, maybe, you know, maybe this is what I need. I can present myself online because pandemic, you know. And Have a better presence. Well, I got into it. And within, within just a month, I discovered that my main purpose with my work wasn’t painting to sell, it’s a , it’s what I do. But my main purpose is how can I maximize my impact in the world? How can I maximize my impact to other women and that’s through teaching. And so then my next thought was, okay, well, let me see how I can create, oh, maybe a YouTube channel or videos and incorporate that interior teaching into skillsets. And I looked at that for a couple of weeks. And this program is so interactive. There’s 15 of us that go through this, this it’s a master masterful course. Within a few weeks, a couple of weeks, I went, that’s not big enough. I need it to transcend me. And so I thought, well, I’ll put it in a book. I’ll put everything I know about art and about what I’ve learned about a spiritual core, what I’ve learned about working with a purpose, what I’ve learned about daydreaming and visioning and all of that into a book and helping help a person see that no matter how well they can draw to relevant that art is making them. So it’s by making art, you’re making a person that’s more sensitive, more intuitive, more kind, and the human being, it’s a humanistic approach to teaching art. And then I give them a , you know, surface touchdown of art skills, but it’s about creativity, but from a different, from a humanistic point of view. So that was what I thought was the best I could do. And it’s in the mysterious world of publishing in the editing department. And I imagine they’re having a great deal of fun with my convoluted sentences. So I don’t know.

Bunny : 37:56

Well and so if, when you chose, I mean, you, you already had this habit of teaching and leading and, and caring. I mean, I think that’s, you made a choice a long time ago that you were not just going to care for yourself, but you were also going to start sharing that hope and caring with other people. But out of that daily habit, you, you’ve now created this practice and this YouTube channel, and you’re , you’ve done a book. And Barbara, do you mind telling folks how old you are your age.

Barbara: 38:34

I’m 75 years old, and these last 20 years Bunny have truly been the best years of my life. I married a man that I swear I met him and I looked at him and I said, he’s goodness. I mean, that’s a funny way to say it, but that’s what happened in my head. And so I wasn’t able to have children again, the dysfunctional life I have I’m by all practical purposes, an orphan. And I married an Irish Catholic man with four children and no grandchildren. And I have this big loving , second family or real family. Right. But yeah.

Bunny : 39:26

Yeah. I just want, I want people to know that life, life is so worth embracing, regardless of whether you’re 30 or 75 or even 85 it’s , boy, it’s an adventure, isn’t it? I mean,

Barbara: 39:43

Isn’t it amazing?

Bunny : 39:45

You are such an example of, but, but let’s go back to that piece where you were talking about art you’ve written this book that, that we hope hope will be available to the public. I don’t know, in the next year. U m, but talk, you know, in terms of i t’s. So the way I understand it, the first half is the holistic piece of it. Tell us how the book i s structured.

Barbara: 40:16

The book is structured in two parts in part one. Yes. It’s that holistic part. It’s the part where I’m giving people stories to inspire them. I’m giving them visioning projects. It’s very much a workbook, visioning projects, purpose projects, possibilities, project , and it’s matrix. So that they’re just effortlessly and stress, no stress throwing out ideas, and then starting to weave what I call their superhero Cape, you know, once that, once all of these pieces come together and that’s a phrase you use, you know, that superhero idea, because at our core, I absolutely believe that if we all could live to our potential, we could make such a difference in the world and the world needs it so badly that I’m driven to take what’s left of my time, whether it’s, you know, whatever time it is, you know, and make the best, make the best decisions, the best impact that I can make. And the only way I can do that is through other people.

Bunny : 41:35

Well, and I understand that the second half of the book is really practical exercises, right?

Barbara: 41:44

Yeah. It’s 55 skillset projects that go from drawing and painting. So there’s drawing exercises, watercolor oil, acrylic , um, pastel. Then it goes into composition design for a chapter with exercises and examples, color, how to use color emotionally, because now I’ve got, I want them to be thinking about putting their heart out there, you know, put, putting, putting their work in an emotional plane. And then the last chapter is creativity. And that’s bringing, this is the final weaving. And that’s bringing all of these pieces, including your purpose, including maybe saving the whales, maybe it’s , um, you know, trying to fund a new dog park, maybe it’s, whatever a person’s passion is at that moment to try and help them see how they can make an impact.

Bunny : 42:48

I can’t wait. I mean, I’m, you know, I’m, my art is different, but I can’t wait to read your book and I, you, you said something really, u m, inspiring to me and I used to think this consciously, but I, I needed to be reminded of it. You said when we were doing the, we did an Instagram live together yesterday, and when we were talking about doing it, you said, well, I try to learn something new every single day. And I thought that’s when people’s lives, stop being purposeful and artistic, i t’s when they think there’s not much left t o my life. There’s you know, when they stop wanting to learn something new every day. Right?

Barbara: 43:40

Right. It’s hard because at my age, there’s, everything’s new technology and, you know, I’m getting clumsy or fingers, these fat fingers trying to put them on the little keys, you know, everything there’s difficulties. But what I told myself was that I don’t need to do learn two things in a day, just one. And so if I set a goal to learn something new every day, but like you put in your book, only one thing at a time. And if, if I look at a day and I have six things on my brain dump sheet that I don’t know how to do, I’ll just look at it and say, well, what’s the most critical time-wise and apply myself to that. And you know, it’s usually not that hard and there’s people I can ask for help. And I do, or I’ll just Google, what’s a podcast. I did that. What is a podcast? And I learned it was a radio show.

Bunny : 44:52

I love that Barbara. So you you know, I always say this because when we start talking with a podcast guests , we always learn so many things, but you did a really great post yesterday. Maybe it was last night or early this morning about the brain dump idea. And I want you to share that with our listeners, because that is such practical and immediately actionable. That’s such a good piece of advice. And I hate the word advice, but it’s such a great idea for how it if everybody’s brain is like mine, I have all this chatter in my head all the time. And some of it is , I want you to tell us what that idea is, because I love it. We all know the idea of a brain dump, but the way that you said it felt so practical and so immediately useful.

Barbara: 45:57

Well, one of the things that I learned Bunny was to lead with a strong sentence and you know, this from your writing. So my strong sentence was time flows, like a roll of toilet paper faster as the end approaches. Yeah . So I thought that might get it because you know, it does. And it’s like, how did it get to be garbage day again? It’s it’s it was just a couple of days, you know, how did it get to be taxis ? And again, how did these things happen? When I was young, it took forever to reach another Friday. And you’re right. So time is like that. And a roll of toilet paper. Everybody knows what that means. It’s like, how can this possibly be gone? So, so what I was talking about was all of the stuff that goes on, I can only speak for myself, but in my head there’s chatter. And I see that I’ve come to see that chatter as maybe the eight year old Barbara trying to tap me on the shoulder. You know, if you don’t do this, something’s going to happen. Dah, dah, dah, you need catch-up , don’t forget the oil. You know, you’ve got a leak over here and that varnish maybe has a spot on it, you know, cheddar, cheddar, but it doesn’t help me when I try and push it away. And it doesn’t help me. If I say, I need some sleep, please leave me alone. So what I do is I talk to it as if it’s that little helpful voice inside me. And I say, Hey, thank you for reminding me of that. And I get a yellow piece of paper and a pencil, and I can do this at night in the dark, because it’s the mechanics of doing it. The brain doesn’t know the lamp isn’t on the brain. Doesn’t know that my pencil isn’t is writing itself. On top of the last sentence, all I’m doing is I’m respecting those messages and it quiets my brain so beautifully. And you know,

Bunny : 48:19

That that is so profound. You’re respecting the message instead of trying to push it away. I think we could write a book about that. It’s, you’re , it’s almost like you said, it’s that eight year old Barbara, but it’s almost like your brain is trying to help you, but it’s, it’s, it’s too fast. It’s too much. It’s too soon. So you and I also, we also know the fact that your brain doesn’t know the difference between reality and , and what’s real and what’s not. So if you just mechanically write it down and let it go. The other thing is you can come back to it, right? I mean, you respect it. You think it , you can certainly come back to it.

Barbara: 49:05

Well, I do. I look at it in the morning to see if there’s to see . And there’s usually a list of things that I already knew. It’s just that I hadn’t put them on paper during the day. And they were going to come back and haunt me during the night. So I’ll have these frequent wake up periods, or I’ll say, you know, God just needs to talk to me because sometimes the things I’m down are perceptive.

Bunny : 49:35

Right. Sometimes it’s not just don’t forget to roll the garbage cart out.

Barbara: 49:41

Right, right. It’s whoa, how these things come together,

Bunny : 49:48

Barbara I’m so I’m so pleased that we met each other. And I want us to do this again, because I know there are a hundred other topics that we can talk about, but your, your spirit and your impact, and the fact that you chose to create a habit of saying yes to the stuff that’s , that’s important is such a gift to me. And I know it’s going to be a gift to our listeners. So thank you so much for doing this with us. I want you to keep us posted on when the book shows up and we also want to post some links to where folks can find your artwork and where they can find you on Instagram. You’re doing, you’re doing an Instagram live like every couple of days, right?

Barbara: 50:36

Well, it’s part, I told you, I’m in a program. Part of our assignment is to get comfortable speaking, get comfortable being live online. And it was very uncomfortable to begin with. I think I might’ve cried, but I’m doing it. Yeah. I kept doing it because why not? I am. I’m 75 years old Bunny. I am too old to say, no, you know, I did, when I turned 70, I said, I am so tired of counting numbers. I’m going to dedicate the debt . I’m just going to count a decade. And this decade I’m dedicating to living fearlessly. So that’s where saying yes. Came about. And since I did that, I’ve moved to Santa Fe. I have a beautiful studio. I’ve written a book. I said yes, to taking a masterful business program, which by the way goes, it’s the house of impact. They’re doing a free workshop. Again, coming up in December. Any woman entrepreneur might be interested in,

Bunny : 51:52

Oh, I’m signing up. I’m definitely signing up. I love that idea. House of Impact we’ll put , we’ll get the link to it. We’ll get it from you. And this is your decade of living fearlessly.

Barbara: 52:06

That’s right. Why not?

Bunny : 52:08

Why not? What an amazing choice, what a great habit. Well thank you for being here. We want to connect you with a lot of folks and I want to talk to you some more, but we’ll do this again. I’m so excited.

Barbara: 52:26

Oh, bunny, you you’ve just touched me so deeply. You know, and I, when I ran across the word gratitude and I’m scrolling through Instagram and I see this lifesaving gratitude and I go wow. Yeah, she gets it. You know? And then I, then I bought your book and I read your book and I met you and yes, you do get it. You know, you get it at your soul level, you know? And so ,

Bunny : 52:55

We’re going to title this, the art of living fearlessly. I, you know, we always, we talk about , um, the , you know, the art of gratitude and different things, but there is an art to living fearlessly. And I think Barbara is the person to teach us how to do it. So.. That’s all we’ve got today. Friends. I want to thank you for joining the life-saving gratitude podcast with your host Bunny, Terry , that’s me and my producer, assistant Johanna Medina. We feel like we’re in the business of sharing the stories that save us, and we hope you’ll share as well by letting your friends and family know about the podcast follow and like us, wherever you listen. And please take the time to leave a review, whether it’s a stellar comment or a suggestion, we are open to suggestions all the time. Also follow us on Instagram at life-saving gratitude pod. You can also follow me personally at bunny Terry , Santa Fe. You can sign up at my website at bunnyterry .com to receive weekly emails about how to become the ultimate gratitude nerd. Thanks so much for checking in.

Bunny: Hi everyone. This is Bunny with the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. Just in case you don’t know me, I am a stage four colon cancer survivor and the author of Lifesaving Gratitude, which is a book about how gratitude helped me kick cancer’s ass. 

Today we’re going to talk to a special guest about how marketing and marketers can use gratitude to create business and connections with clients and also for themselves to create a really positive way to do their job. But first, I just want to thank you for being here and ask that you download the podcast if you’d like. And certainly subscribe wherever you listen to other podcasts. But enough about me and enough about the podcast. 

I want to introduce you to my special guest, who’s also a friend. Craig Cunningham is currently a realtor with Keller Williams, Santa Fe. And that’s how I met him. However, this is a recent career for him and he was, and correct me if I mispronounce the word, but you were a hotelier. Is that the way to say that?

Craig: Yes. 

Bunny: Yes. He’s spent 30 years in corporate sales and marketing. He’s traveled extensively. I’m going to let him tell you all the places that he’s been to, but he is the founder and principal of Cunningham + Colleagues marketing consultants. He was in the past the VP of marketing and quality for Seaport Hotels and World Centers and the VP of marketing for Core North America. So welcome Craig Cunningham.

Craig: Thanks so much for having me on your podcast.

Bunny: I’m excited. I know you have some great tips for all of our listeners. When I think about these podcasts, I always think about the people that are going to want the information we’re offering. I mean, we’re here to help people and we’re here to figure out how gratitude can make everyone’s life not just easier and simpler, but also fuller. So why don’t you start, Greg? Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us how in the world you ended up in this completely different career? And yet the truth is we’re still just marketers first and realtors, second. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell our listeners.

Craig: Yeah. So, as you said, I’ve been in marketing and sales for more than 30 years. I actually started off with an advertising and PR agency and then had the good fortune to be hired by my hotel client at the time, Wyndham hotels. At that time it was a North American chain and it’s now international. 

But from then on, I was in the hotel business. It’s definitely a career where if you are not focused on client service and the whole concept of gratitude, you’re not going to be successful. I always thought of our job as just surprising and delighting our guests and making them feel like they chose the right hotel to be with. And so it was always about waking up every day and saying, “What can I do to make somebody’s day and to give them a great experience?” And, of course, to do this you have to be grateful because they opted to choose your hotel over the million other choices that they had. 

So when I retired from the hotel business two years ago, I was trying to figure out what else I wanted to do with my life. I started doing more volunteering. I volunteer with Kitchen Angels here in Santa Fe to deliver meals to people who are not able to leave their homes. But I also started thinking of whether I wanted to do something else from a professional standpoint and the real estate business seemed like a natural extension, because it’s all about client service. You have to figure out ways to make people feel like they’ve made the right choice in working with you. So it’s all about being grateful every day and figuring out what can I do to help them today. How else can I extend what I’m doing for them in a way that they will appreciate and know that I appreciate them. So that’s what it’s really all about, because of course they could work with a million other other people

Bunny: Right. And let’s talk for just a second. Don’t you think that marketing has changed over the 30 years that you’ve been doing this? I mean, it seems to me that when we were kids, which was back before the crust cooled, we were sort of marketed at. Just talk for a minute about how marketing is different now than it was 10 years ago or 30 years ago.

Craig: It’s funny, because I was going to say the exact same thing. Back in the day, you were running a TV ad or a radio spot or a print ad and it was passive in that you just presented the information, unless you were direct sales. But really with the advent of so much digital media, you are instantly able to forge a relationship with customers through social media, through Facebook, Instagram, where you’re having a dialogue with them from the very beginning. This allows you to work in a much more personal way and to be able to find out much more quickly how you can serve those people. 

So I think it’s changed completely. Before you just sort of put it out there into the ether and hope that something worked, and now you’re able to engage. And I’ve found that so much in real estate where I’m getting emails from folks and then it evolves from the email into a phone call or a zoom call or something like that instantly. I think that’s so much better for both people. Especially for somebody like me who wants to find ways to engage with people and to be of service to them, it makes it a lot easier and more rewarding.

Bunny: I just think about the ways that I connect with my clients. It’s as if you’re somehow conveying to those people that you’re grateful that they showed up.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, my whole thought is that it’s not a transaction, it’s a relationship. And that relationship can be multifaceted. Once you’ve sold them a house or sold their house, I like to think that we’ve formed a friendship and a bond and that relationship is going to continue. And honestly, I don’t even care if I ever get another piece of business for them. Now think of them as friends. I want to have them to my house for dinner or go have coffee or something like that. 

I think that kind of thing that makes a difference for people in wanting to work with me.  It’s coming from a position of wanting to be of service to them and wanting to make them happy and finding the right solution for them. I’m working with some first-time-buyers right now and I kind of feel like they’re my kids. It’s about, okay, how can I really help them with this? And they’re grateful for the counsel I’m able to give to them, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to work with them. So it’s very rewarding. I think if you approach business relationships in the same way as you would with your friends, it’s a win-win situation for everybody.

Bunny: Well, talking about those first-time home buyers, I mean, that’s one of my favorite deals. You never make the most money from those transactions, but I’m so grateful to be reminded that we are providing the American dream when we’re selling real estate. Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s my favorite experience.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, for somebody to have their first home and to be excited about how they’re going to decorate it and what they’re going to do. And with this young couple, seeing them excited when they see a house brings out all my empathy and makes me want to really go the extra mile for them to make sure they find the right house at the right price for them. And then I just never want to stop. So then it’s like, “Okay, now I’m going to find this person for you to do the plumbing, and I’m going to find this person, etc, and I’ll be with you with you  to help explain things.” I just want to really continue to be of service.

Bunny: I talk a lot, especially on my blog, about Judy Camp, who was one of my first real estate mentors. She was a great friend and Linda Gammons partner for a long time before she passed away. But Judy Camp always says, “If you come from contribution, you can’t help but be successful.”

Craig: Yeah. I mean, just as I was saying, you can’t think of it as a transaction. I think, coming from contribution, how can I help you? How can I make this a better experience? How can I make this work? Because, especially in a real estate transaction, it can be stressful. It’s the biggest financial transaction for the majority of us. So how do you take the burden and the pressure away from them and sort of guide them through the process? I just think the main thing is that it’s much more fun, whether you’re doing volunteer work or in business, to wake up every day and figure out how I could make it fun for somebody else. Because then it’s fun for you and it gets you excited and passionate about what you’re doing.

Bunny: Well, it sounds like our big “why’s” are really similar. I certainly don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but it sounds like your big “why” is just to make the life of the people you come in contact with better.

Craig: Yeah. Of course making money is nice, but there are lots of ways to make money. It’s more about whether you are getting energy from it. And I think you really get energy when you’re working with someone and trying to figure out how you can help them, how you can make their day better, how you can make the service that you’re providing better. And also just doing things that saying, “What about if I do X, Y, Z?” and they’re  like, “Oh, you’ll do that for me?” And I’m like, “Of course.”

I have another set of clients where the transaction was fairly complicated and we were looking at lots of properties. Coming from a corporate background, I love to do spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations—things like that. And so after about the third thing we had to do, they’re like, “Oh, how are we going to organize all these bids?”  And then one of the guys said to the other guy, “Well, Craig’s going to do a spreadsheet for us. He’s probably already got it done.” So it’s that kind of thing where you’re looking for ways to make their experience better.

Bunny: So this is always a funny question for me to ask, because I have such a loose gratitude practice other than just waking up in the morning and saying, “thank you, thank you, thank you,” and then writing things down, but do you have a practice that you follow that helps you both in your business and your personal life?

Craig: Well, since I came into real estate with Keller Williams, which focuses a lot on being servant leaders and helping people, I’ve gotten into the habit of writing three things I’m grateful for that day. It could be that it’s a beautiful day or a dog or my partner or the opportunity to help somebody or the coffee’s really good that day, but waking up and appreciating what you have in your life is a good way to get in a good mindset for the rest of it.

Bunny: Oh, absolutely. Something I always say is that we kind of rewire our brains. We do. We create new neural pathways every time we say that we’re grateful. So in terms of nuts and bolts, is there a way that you let your clients know? I mean, I find that there are a lot of young people, young entrepreneurs or people who are new to business, who forget how to tell their clients how they’re grateful for them, even if it’s a line in an email. Do you have something that you do specifically over and over?

Craig: I think for me, it’s maybe more in the actions. I think of “This is really going to be helpful if I do this or if I provide this information.” I think it’s always in my voice and the way that I write. I try to always communicate openly and in a friendly and conversational manner. But then I also think “It would be really cool and really helpful if I did X , Y , Z.” I created a whole PowerPoint just on the neighborhoods in Santa Fe, because if you’re out of town it gets confusing. And that came out of a client saying, “Well, I don’t really know the neighborhoods.” And I thought that this would be a great tool for them. So I created it and then I was able to use it with others. 

So I think for me, maybe it’s sort of on the fly. I used to say in the hotel hotel business, “How can I make this a wow experience?” Because the other way to think about it is that every relationship is with people. When you’re in a service business you’re really in the business of creating memories. You can create good memories or you can create bad memory and it’s much more fun to create good memories.

Bunny: And that just comes from a spirit of generosity. I mean, you obviously want this to be the best real estate experience they’ve ever had.

Craig: Right. Right. I’m very grateful for the people that have helped me along the way. I’ve been very fortunate in my career to always work for people who were concerned about my career development and my personal development and became dear friends. And I’ve had a couple of bosses that have hired me twice in two different jobs. So I’m always grateful for the things that other people have done for me. 

So then I want to pay it forward. When I came to Keller Williams and I was introduced to the team here, there was so much openness and willingness to share and help and support. It has been fantastic. What strikes me the most is how grateful I am for what other people have done for me. And how do I pay that back?

Bunny: I mean, this is not a podcast to plug Keller Williams. It’s really more to talk about mindset, but the place where I learned it was sitting in that training room and learning that my mindset was the secret sauce. I mean, that’s the success piece, right?

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s not just about production and everything. It’s about weight and having a sense of gratitude and contribution and a sense of abundance. And I don’t mean that in a monetary way. It could be abundance in your health or your friends or all of that kind of stuff. And I think back to you. Your experience with cancer was far worse than mine, but I did have prostate cancer about nine years ago. Everyone I worked with during that entire time when I was going for radiation every day for 10 weeks was so supportive. And then on the last day of radiation, there was this very important meeting, and everyone knew it was my last day.My whole team had a celebration for me on my last day. That was turning something that was obviously a challenging situation into something where I knew they really cared about me and supported me.

Bunny: Wow. I’m interested to hear how your mindset was in the middle of that? 

Craig: I’m just by nature, an optimistic person. So even though it was scary, I felt like I was in good hands from a medical standpoint and I just felt like I was gonna beat it. I had done the education that I needed to and then it was really about having a positive mindset. 

This is probably too much information, but I’ll say it anyway. You’re doing the radiation stripped down to your boxer shorts. And so I jokingly put this Facebook thing about the fact that I needed a new pair of boxer shorts for every day. And people started sending me underwear—different pairs of boxer shorts for every day. So while I was sitting there in the big machine, where you’re sort of in there and it’s buzzing and scanning and all that kind of stuff, it got to be kind of a joke with the techs:  “Oh , what’s he going to be wearing today?”

Bunny: I love that.

Craig: That was a way to keep my spirits up. And also during that process, I really learned how to be very focused. I was in a waiting room with people that were going through, frankly, worse things than prostate cancer. Don’t get me wrong, prostate cancer is pretty serious. It is. People die from it. But I was seeing so many other people that were having a much more challenging time than I was. And we became a family. We all bonded together during that process, because we were all waiting, sometimes for an hour. So it’s things like that. And also things like the kitchen angels service, where it helps reboot you every day for how grateful you should be in your own life and grateful for the opportunity to help other people.

Bunny: Right. There are tons of people who do get what a gift it is. People who don’t even have a specific gratitude practice, but at least an attitude every day that you’re going to figure out something. I just wrote a blog post on limiting beliefs and one of the things that I wanted to convey is that we get to choose every single moment how we view the world. And maybe for somebody out there who’s brand new in business or who’s starting a new business. I just read a statistic that said that the entrepreneur demographics are changing. And now like 48% of new entrepreneurs are over 50. So hooray for the old people! 

But I know that there are people out there right now who are thinking, “Well, I’m not any good at marketing. I’m not any good at that piece of it. I can sell stuff, but I’m not good at the marketing stuff.” I’ve got to tell you, I’m married to a guy who doesn’t believe in self promotion because he came from a generation when you played down your assets, instead of being grateful for them and talking about them. So I’d love to hear what you have to say to somebody who has that limiting belief that they can’t market. And they can’t promote themselves.

Craig: You know, we could all market ourselves, and we do it every day in our interactions.  Whether we think of it as marketing or not, we’re marketing ourselves all day long in how we react and treat other people. The thought I had as you were talking about your husband thinking self-promotion sounds like a dirty word is that it doesn’t have to be you talking  about “me, me, me” and “I did this million dollars in revenue.” This is kind of a turnoff in some ways, because you’re talking about yourself. But if you’re talking about how you can help somebody else and how you can provide a good experience for them with your information and knowledge, you’re not talking about yourself in that context. You’re talking about how you can be of service. I think that’s a much easier way for a lot of people from a generation where we weren’t really supposed to be talking about ourselves.

Bunny: Well, it was pre-social media. Our face wasn’t out there. We just weren’t trained to tell people, “Here’s the reason you should hire me instead of the other person.”

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, now we’re all our own brands on social media. But I think that rather than saying to somebody, “Here’s why you should hire me versus somebody else,” you should just talk about how you can be of service in what you do in an authentic way. Then people are more likely to want to work with you, because you’re radiating a sense of positivity and an interest in them. And they’re not thinking that you just look at them as a transaction and then you’re onto the next person.

Bunny: I frequently use with my marketing coaching clients the example of a dinner party. If you went into a dinner party (and this is for people who are just beginning in whatever business they’re in, especially if they’re self-employed), you wouldn’t simply walk in, take your coat off and say, “Hey, I’m selling something, come and talk to me.” Right? I mean, that’s what you don’t want to do with marketing. You want to start by building a relationship. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Craig: I think it goes all the way back to Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. People do like to talk about themselves. And so the first thing is you should be listening. That was one of the first things I learned in marketing client service. You need to ask questions and learn from your clients. Focus on what they need, as opposed to talking about yourself. You really want to establish a dialogue with them about their wants and needs and hopes and fears and everything else. Then you can talk about how you can address them. But nobody wants to go in and all of a sudden have you sit down and say, “Here’s my PowerPoint about me and what I’ve done.” It should be more of establishing, from the very beginning, a relationship of openness with folks. Then, after hearing from them, you can say “Well, here’s how I think I can you and here are some ideas that I have that I could share with you.” So I think a key thing is really listening from the very beginning.

Bunny: I even found that to be helpful when I used to first go on listing appointments. I was so nervous that I would sit down and I would immediately try to book an appointment. You know, if you’re not in real estate, a listing appointment is just like sitting down with a prospective customer. I would be so nervous in the beginning and really coming from a place of scarcity where I thought, “If I don’t get this listing, I’m not sure I can pay the rent next month.” And if you’re coming from a place of scarcity, you’re likely to self-sabotage. But that’s such good advice because things changed when I finally learned how to sit back and listen: “I’m here to help you. Tell me what it is that you need. Talk to me.” It’s so powerful to give a client time to talk to you. And I think people forget to do that, right?

Craig: Yeah. And I think sometimes we do it because we’re afraid. What I’ve learned so much over the years in business working with people is that people are terrified of silence, so they will immediately start talking. If there’s a second of silence, you jump in and start babbling. Lord knows I do it. But if you just let somebody talk and let it sort of sit there for a second and not just try to be filling in all the time. It drives me crazy when people are doing that. It’s much better if you can have the client talk and then ask some more questions and then be warm and reflective about it. Back to the Dale Carnegie thing, I think one of his first points was if you’re at the dinner party, ask people about themselves. Most people do like to talk about themselves. So ask them and don’t just start talking about yourself. 

Bunny: I think that even people who would say, “I don’t like to talk about myself,” really do want somebody to ask them and listen to them.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s not just asking them to go on and on. It’s more meaningful questions about, for example, why they decided to move here. Just those kinds of questions that get them thinking. Growing up in materialistic Dallas, the joke was that the questions at a party were like, “Where do you live? What do you do? What do you drive?” And so it’s not questions like that. It’s asking them more about their life experience,

Bunny: You just brought me to another completely different point, which is for any realtors out there listening: I think it’s really important to convey to your clients how grateful you are for where you live. I mean, if our lifestyle is such a selling point, don’t you think you should share that?

Craig: Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, living in Santa Fe there’s so much beauty. I’m looking out my window right now at the beautiful blue sky. When I leave my house in the morning and I see the mountains, and then when I’m coming home at night and the sun is setting over the mountains and I see all the different colors and everything, it’s just breathtaking. It’s great to live in such a great and wonderful environment and in a place that is very spiritual, going back with the native Americans—respect for the earth and nature and all of those things—I think it does help center us more than a lot of other places.

Bunny: How do you convey that to your clients? I know you’re doing something really cool online that’s different from some other realtors.

Craig: Well, I’m not just posting on my Facebook page,” Hey, I just sold this house or just sold that house.” Well, that’s great. But I’m more talking about new experiences in Santa Fe: new restaurants, or a new place to go hiking, or something exciting that’s happening at one of the museums or things like that—enthusiastically talking about the experience of living in Santa Fe. And if down the road, by the way, you’re looking at this stuff and you decide you want to buy a house here, I would love to help you. But it’s more about conveying the reason why we all want to live here

Bunny: And tell us about your blog, because I think it’s amazing.

Craig: So I created this blog, which is called Santa Fe Scenes. It’s that same kind of thing where it’s just talking about having fun in Santa Fe. One of the things was, you know, we’ve got the old Santa Fe trail and we’ve got the old Pincus trail, but did you know that we had a Margarita trail and a Chocolate trail? Stuff like that. Just being whimsical about it and talking about some of the things are unique about the city and sharing my own passion for Santa Fe. I was very fortunate to be able to do a lot of international travel for my job. I was grateful for the opportunity that I was given to see places that I wouldn’t have seen otherwise from Bogota to Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro and Beijing and places like that. So I’ve always been enthusiastic about travel and now living in such a beautiful place like Santa Fe, I want to share that enthusiasm with people.

Bunny: And you’re getting some good feedback on that I bet, right?

Craig: Yes, I am. I’m getting good feedback on it. It’s been a wonderful thing to reconnect with friends who are saying, “Good for you, you old dog! You’re back out there trying something new.” Because whenever someone says, “Oh, you’re a new realtor,” I say, “Well, I’m an old new realtor. I’m 61 and I’m starting this for the first time.” But it’s been great from that perspective and the support that you get from your friends. Then people are saying, “Oh, well, I know somebody who might be interested in sending you that information.” I think that’s one of the positive things that social media has done where we’ve been able to reconnect with so many people that we might have completely lost touch with.

Bunny: Oh yeah. I did a post not very long ago about how grateful I was, and it was in the middle of all the fear over Facebook and Twitter. And I just said that it’s such a great platform for reconnecting with cousins that I haven’t seen since I was six. I mean, I just turned 60. I’m an old dog and this is a new trick for me, but I think that if you use it the right way, it’s a real gift. I also think there are so many realtors, like you said, who just post either pictures of houses that they have listed or their accomplishments. And I think they’re really missing an opportunity.

Craig: Yeah. Because then you’re just talking at someone. You’re not sharing information and excitement about things with them. People don’t want to look at that stuff. They want to look at things like the fact that there are like six great chocolate tiers in Santa Fe. And then the next time I’m in town, I want to go to each one of them. Or discovering an amazing new hiking trail or a beautiful image of a shop window or a piece of art or something like that. 

Bunny: Yeah, it’s so much better than “I just listed this house at 123 main street. Don’t you wish you owned it?” Exactly.

Craig: Exactly. I think more people would react to it. I’d really like to have some of that green chili chocolate over at The Chocolate Smith or whatever. It’s much more interesting than a picture of a kitchen that has granite countertops. Oh my goodness.

Bunny: And, you know, Craig, I found that people will call me and they’ll say, “Well, I’ve been following you on Facebook for two years. And I feel like you’re my best friend. I think you’d be the right person to show me around and help me find a house.” And I bet that’s happening to you too.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s funny, you mentioned that. One of the people I’ve been mentoring told me a story about how she posted a lovely picture of herself and then somebody called her and said, “I feel like I already know you because you just look like a nice person and I feel like I can trust you.” I think also that it’s our eyes and our smile and everything that conveys so much of what you’re talking about. If you have a spirit of gratitude and service and a sense of abundance, not scarcity, it shows in your face, your eyes, your smile, and your whole persona.

Bunny: Well, we’re going to have to wrap up here in a minute, but I would love to hear if you have just three great tips that you would give to somebody who feels kind of stuck in their marketing. It could be what you’ve learned in 30 years or in the last three days, whatever it is.

Craig: I think one is changing your question from “How do I market myself?” to “What can I do for this client?” or “What can I do that’s going to excite the people? How can I make them feel appreciated and valued?” And this can work in cases where you’re actually working one-on-one with a client or cases where you’re trying to figure out how to promote what you’re doing. How do I find ways to surprise and delight people? So I like to do that with social media buys, where you come up with quirky, little things to talk about that are authentically Santa Fe or a funny picture of my dog or something like that. You want to put a smile on people’s faces. And social media gives us so many opportunities to be able to do that in ways that we couldn’t before. So the main thing at the end of it is to put your client first, and then I think everything else will come from there.

Bunny: You’re absolutely right. I think as long as your passion is helping people, then success is just a natural by-product of that.

Craig: Exactly. People feel that energy and then they want to tell their friends about you.

Bunny: What I’ve found is that people want to be able to trust somebody, especially in this business where they’re making possibly the biggest purchase of their life.

Craig: Right? I’m thinking back to these younger clients. We were touring houses, and they were interested in one particular house and I was like, “No, I’m not going to let you buy this. This is not the right move.” And I think all of a sudden they’re like, “Wow, he really cares. He’s not just thinking ‘Tick tock, tick tock. We’ve seen three houses.’” This is not House Hunters International where there are the three properties and you have to buy one. So again, it’s not a transaction. It’s a journey. It’s a relationship.

Bunny: I think that’s the most important tip for somebody to take away. Whether you’re selling widgets or earrings or house cars or houses, this is not a transaction. It’s a relationship. We want people to trust you and come back over and over. I don’t know how you can love your job if you’re not doing it the way we’re doing it.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. And have fun with it. We get to meet interesting people all day long. We get to see things. We get to use our own creativity to express ourselves. I know there are people that are in jobs that don’t have that. But I also read things about  the janitor in an elementary school who takes real pride in what they do, and they are going to do the best job that they possibly can. So I think in almost everything, you can come at it with a mindset of “How can I make this a great experience for me and for others?”

Bunny: That’s great stuff. Tell us where people can find you and where they can find your blog.

Craig: Well, probably the most fun thing I’m doing is the Santa Fe Scenes blog. 

Bunny: Okay. And we’ll share that on the information page for the podcast. And then, of course, if people want to buy a house from you, they can find you through there?

Craig: Yeah. All my information is on there. So one stop shop.

Bunny: Craig, I’m so excited that you were here. This was fun. I think we could do it again.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Bunny: Because I think this is the place where people get stuck. People who are self-employed get stuck in this part. And so I think there’s a lot of stuff that we can talk about.  But I’m of course really grateful that you agreed to talk with us.

Craig: Oh, thanks. It’s been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. 

Bunny: And to everybody else, thanks for being here. This is once again, the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry. You are welcome to go to my website if you’d like to learn more about me and about buying my book, which is all about gratitude and how gratitude helped me kick stage four cancer’s ass. And we’d love to have you follow us and subscribe on spot Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks so much, Craig.

Craig: Thank you. Next time.