The Gratitude of Learning to Lead: Bud Hamilton

Bunny: (00:10)
Hi there and welcome to the lifesaving gratitude podcast. We have a as always a special guest today, but this is somebody that I’ve known for about seven and a half years. It’s bud Hamilton. He is the immediate past board chair for the cancer foundation for New Mexico. But the reason that I really wanted to talk to bud is because he is, as I say, in the podcast, the quintessential giver back to the community in which he lives. And I thought it would be a great time of year to, you know, we’re in the spirit of giving right now, but bud is in the spirit of giving all year long and he and his wife, Valerie, who’s a powerhouse on her own and would make a great guest. So we’ll make a note of that, but they moved to Santa Fe and immediately jumped right in rather than spending their retirement, um, you know, playing with their grandkids and trout fishing and playing golf or whatever people do when they’re retired. I don’t know. I don’t know what that means, but, um, they are huge givers and it seemed perfectly appropriate at this time of year. I mean, what did you think, Johanna? I was blown away by what I learned about somebody. I thought I knew really well.

Johanna: (01:30)
I agree. Of course it’s different for me because I know a lot about Bud I’ve this I’ve never actually met him in person. I’m sure I’ve seen him at the sweetheart auction, you know at the beginning, but I’ve never actually met him. but I had the privilege this past year as he transitioned out of his role of board chair, you know, and passing it down to you. I, um, helped put together the book for him and Valerie, the tribute book for him and Valerie that, and it had obviously great pictures, but also so many kind notes from everybody that knew him from volunteers to staff, to other board members. And so getting to read all that stuff and then finally meet the person. I think it was kind of like, almost like meeting a celebrity for me cause I’m like, oh, everybody just loves him so much. And, and hearing about all he’s done and all he continues to do, as he said, he’s gonna be 80 this next year. Right. And, and even like his, his morning routine and his organization skills I took away a lot from this episode.

Bunny: (02:42)
I did also, and I was so excited. You know, Bud is always moving. About three years ago, three and a half years ago when he talked to me about moving into the board chair position, I said only if I get to follow you around for the next three years, because one of the things, you know, I truly believe that you become the people that you associate with or your life is really affected by the people that you associate with. In fact, I think Brindley Tucker said, and we’re gonna have her on in a couple of weeks, but she said at one point, and I’ve heard other people say if you’re the smartest person in the room, get in a different room because you’re in the wrong room. And, Bud is the perfect example of me wanting to be in the room with the right people.

Bunny: (03:27)
And I’ve watched him. One of the things he said from the beginning was, I feel like my job is to lead by examples. So I can’t tell people that they need to be really active philanthropists and volunteers, if I’m not willing to do that myself. And he does that, they, I mean, they have this morning routine where they start at like 4:30 or five o’clock in the morning and they don’t stop. Their social calendar is full, but it’s because he is devoted to connecting with people who can make a real difference in the community. And, and he gives great tips. I mean this is not just an esoteric talk about how to be a philanthropist or how to take care of donors. He gives us real concrete tips. Doesn’t he?

Johanna: (04:14)
That’s what I was gonna say too. I agree that, you know, I think this is a good episode for anybody who, you know, it covers a wide area. It’s anybody who wants to kind of get motivated to give back more or get more involved in their community. Anybody who wants to learn how to be a leader, as you both say, you know, leaders are not born, they’re made, you can learn to be that way. Anybody that wants to just kinda revamp their routine and get, be more productive, he does give a lot of practical tips to, to add that to your day. So I think it’s, it’s a really great episode for, for anybody to listen to whether you’re a philanthropist or not.

Bunny: (04:58)
Right. And right after we recorded this, I went to lunch with another board member and we were down at the compound off of canyon road. And we met some people who were involved with the state council for the arts and the woman that I was with said, this is Bunny Terry, she’s the board chair, the new board chair, the cancer foundation for New Mexico and the person. And, He said, what? You know, Bud’s got the biggest shoes in the world for you to fill, are you ready? And I said, I don’t know, but I just interviewed him. And I learned some tricks of the trade. And so that guy said, drop me a note because everybody wants to know how he manages. He’s on eight nonprofit boards. He is actively involved. He works out for two and a half hours every morning. I mean, he is a powerhouse of activity and leadership and giving back. So I think that our listeners are gonna be really excited to hear what he has to say. And I’d say stay to the end. I always say that because we talk for about 40 minutes and then this gym just falls in our lap. Doesn’t that seem like it happened every time.

Johanna: (06:13)
Mm-hmm yeah. Yeah. I mean, you always get good stuff out of the guests, but I love, I always love the end because that’s when we bring out, okay, well, what can we, you know, send our listeners off with, or, you know, this one was about how can we move into 2022, with some, you know, new goals and I’m not gonna spoil anything, but, it definitely inspired me for the coming year. So it’s a good one. And I think, uh, yeah, we kind of got some inside secrets from him.

Bunny: (06:45)
Well, and I’m gonna tell you, he’s happy to share them he is. He is. And I, I immediately got on Amazon and ordered my files for my suspense system. I’m very excited, but, so we’re, we’re happy that you’re here. We are, um, especially happy that you’re downloading that you’re subscribing and that we are getting some good reviews and, um, we’re excited to see what 2022 has has for all of us. So thanks for checking in and enjoy our conversation with bud Hamilton.

Bunny: (07:21)
Hi there, everyone. I wanna introduce you to, um, somebody that I’ve known, um, for what seems like a short period of time seven or eight years, but someone that I’ve admired, I was just saying that, um, when I became the board chair of the cancer foundation for New Mexico, which was quite recently, and we’ll talk more about the cancer cancer foundation later on in the podcast, people started asking me, why are you so involved? Why do you spend so much time and effort, um, at giving, giving to this cause as opposed to your business. And every time that somebody asks me that I think of, but our, our, our guest today is bud Hamilton, who is the past board chair of the cancer foundation and who is really, um, the quintessential, um, giver back to his community. That’s an awkward way to say it, but, I don’t know anybody who gives more time and more financial support to their community than bud and his wife, Valerie. And, just his background. Bud served as the board chair of the cancer foundation for New Mexico for 11 years. Before that, he worked for P&G for Proctor and gamble for almost 40 years. Several of his positions included director of customer business development in Latin America. President of UCOS. Did I say that correctly, bud?

Bud: (09:02)
Yes, that’s a P&G subsidiary.

Bunny: (09:06)
Vice president of customer business development in north America and vice president of customer marketing in north America. Wait, and there’s more, vice president of innovation research and development global. And so, so, but has this extensive corporate background, an MBA from Harvard, served on the board of directors of Domino’s pizza and he serves on a lot of, not for profit boards here in Santa. I believe yesterday when we were talking bud, you said seven or eight others besides the cancer foundation. So, this is somebody who had this extensive corporate background and could have retired and gone fishing every day. However, that’s not what he does. And so when we talked about doing the pot, I told bud that every week we really wanna give our listeners, tools that they can use to, to lead a richer, fuller, and more grateful life. And I think in order to have gratitude, you also have to have a giving spirit. Um, and sometimes we do that by telling stories that are, are about surviving, um, about thriving after a frightening diagnosis. And sometimes it’s by sharing tools from various coaches and therapists. But this week I wanna talk about conscious leadership and philanthropy and how being really proficient and purposeful about both of those things can change the of others, but it can really change your own. So, um, without, I don’t wanna do all the talking here. So I wanna talk first about how we were connected, Bud. I, um, I, I did some fundraising for a national organization. I did a fundraiser at the Lensic and raised almost $35,000. And at the end of that, we wrote a check to a national organization. And when that event was over, I went to my oncologist and said, I really wanna do something to keep my money here. Any hard work, any effort that I put forth to help cancer patients, I’d really like for it to help people locally. So that’s when my oncologist introduced me to you, Bud. Do you have a recollection of that?

Bud: (11:30)
Well, it’s vague at best, I must say. However, when I think about my memory these days, it’s not what it used to be Bunny, and so I’m not getting any younger, so I don’t think poorly of you because I don’t.

Bunny: (11:49)
Well, but what I gathered at the time and what I know now is that you were serving as the board chair, but you were always searching for people who had the same level of commitment and passion. Is that right?

Bud: (12:03)
That’s correct. And I always said to prospective new board members that I had two expectations, uh, one was that they had the cap capacity, the capability and the willingness, to work hard, because our board is a working board as you so well know and also the ability to help financially. And then finally, uh, in the financial, purview, also the willingness and passion for fundraising and to do it personally and be willing to make the ask because we’ve had a number of board members who’ve joined us. And then when they found out that we were already serious about the fundraising component backed off because they just didn’t feel comfortable with it.

Bunny: (12:50)
Well, and don’t you think that ask piece? I mean, I think that it’s always, I mean, it’s hard even. I mean, Johanna would tell us that it’s hard even to make an ask for a donation to the sweetheart auction when you’re first beginning. But once you figure out what the, what the purpose is, why we’re doing this, it seems like an easy, easy task.

Bud: (13:14)
Well, it’s one of the great things of working with and for the cancer foundation is that, uh, it’s hard to say no. Uh, and so when you’re asking folks to support you and the organization, almost everybody’s been touched by cancer and it is hard to say, no, I always reflect back on cuz I started in the sales operation at P&G and I got turned down a lot more often, than I do now in trying to seek funds from people for the cancer foundation. So you have to have big shoulders and just, shrug it off and go on and ask again. But the reinforcing part here is that people do tend to say yes, a lot more frequently.

Bunny: (14:01)
They do. They do. I, you know, before we go on, um, I know that our listeners, a lot of our listeners hear me talk about the foundation all the time, but can you give the listeners who don’t know just a brief overview of how the, how the found foundation started and what we do?

Bud: (14:19)
Sure. The cancer center here locally in Santa Fe was opened in 2001 and the oncologist fairly quickly found out that oftentimes they would, diagnose, patients, with the disease that lived up north of us here, uh, and then told them that the medical protocol would be all covered financially by one of several different organizations. There are federal state and local organizations that help with these costs, and from the medical side. And then these folks would leave and either come back and start treatment and then stop and not come back or not come back at all. And when they did the follow up research to find out why because they basically were going home to die, then to have a chance to survive and fight the disease, they found out that they just couldn’t afford to come to Santa Fe and stay in Santa Fe and the incremental out-of-pocket expense involved with and so what the docs decided to do was to create a foundation to help fund these non-medical costs to help these patients have a chance to survive. And they’d founded our foundation and shortly thereafter I got involved

Bunny: (15:45)
Well, and you have a personal connection, um, right?

Bud: (15:49)
Yes. My wife Valerie is a cancer survivor. In fact she was diagnosed the same, same year that the cancer foundation here was opened in 2001. And so we feel very fortunate to have had all these subsequent years, uh, afterwards she did not get treated here. She got treated in Cincinnati cuz we still living in Cincinnati at the time. Uh, but Valerie got involved actually prior to me getting involved in the cancer foundation. And as you know, she has volunteered, I dunno, 16, 17 years, something like that in the chemo room every Friday for all those years to give back.

Bunny: (16:34)
I know because I remember when I was getting treatment, Valerie was in, in the chemo room, bringing me cup, bringing me cups of tea. That’s another thing that the cancer foundation does, but um, you know, those incremental costs when we talk about ’em, um, they’re so simple, but they’re so of they’re they’re so, um, essential to the people that we serve, you know, mileage, reimbursements, grocery cards overnight stays. I mean, I, I know that when I was sick, I couldn’t have afforded to come here and stay. Luckily I lived here, but, um, those are the things that people here and get them well.

Bud: (17:16)
Correct. And the thing that’s important for your audience to understand is that there is a financial requirement to be fulfilled before we help these. So, we’re not helping just everybody, regardless of their financial need, but we, we try to get a good, view of their financial situation before offering help.

Bunny: (17:37)
So I’m, I’m really curious about your background story because people, you don’t it’s, it seems to me that most of the people I’ve spoken to don’t just wake up one day and decide to be generous or grateful or mindful of, of how they can change their community. But tell, tell our listeners a little bit about your background story.

Bud: (18:02)
Well, I was, uh, raised basically in the greater Chicago area and the north west side. My father was an educator. My mom was a stay at home mom and that was the very common thing. In most homes. I went to a big high school, the largest high school in the state of Illinois, uh, over 6,000 students. Uh, my senior year, we actually were on shifts. I was at in school by 7:00 AM and out at about noon. And I went to basketball practice and started about one and went to about five 30. So it was a day.

Bunny: (18:44)
Wow

Bud: (18:46)
But, I enjoyed that. I had some, good academic as well as social experiences there. And then I went to a small, college in green castle, Indiana, which most people have not heard of it’s between Terre, Haute and Indianapolis, and then onto graduate school for my MBA immediately thereafter. And in between those two years, I married Valerie. She was one year behind me in college. And she always reminds me that she’s much younger than I am

Bunny: (19:23)
well. And, did you grow up in a household where it was common to give to charity?

Bud: (19:34)
No. I’d have to give you that honest answer. Not because there wouldn’t have been a desire to, but we, I came from very humble means and, we never, we never wanted for food on the table, but boy, we didn’t have any excess to give away either and that was an issue in our home. And it was one of the things quite honestly, that motivated me throughout my life to, to have a strong work ethic and to, uh, be, be in a position to be able to, to treat the family though. I wanted to send ’em to the right schools and after work to help in any way I could with their development. And one of the things, lessons of life is even after they leave home, it’s the financial obligation is not necessarily over.

Bunny: (20:23)
Right, right. But well, and the questions that I sent you, one of the questions I ask is if you were always involved in charity on some level, you know, did you start small? Did your, did your habits grow? But, I have listeners who say things like, you know, I’m a single mom, I can’t do very much, but I’m curious when that habit started. When, when this giving kind of meshed with your, you were already a leader within your community. When did, when did those two things come together?

Bud: (21:06)
Well, I was, fortunate in getting good leadership experience early in life. I’ll go all the way back to high school. I was the president of my freshman class. I was the president of my senior class. And what I would say about those experiences is that, they were, they were good in that. I got my feet wet in, in terms of learning what leadership was all about, but this sounds a little less than humble, but those elections were mostly about popularity and name recognition. You know, I was an athlete in the school and so people knew who I was. It was easier for me to get the vote than somebody else who didn’t have, uh, that broad scale exposure. So I can’t take much credit there, but that was my first start. But then really what got me involved in a serious way was, uh, Proctor and gamble P&G is very, much into giving back very much in supporting the communities in which they have offices or manufacturing works.

Bud: (22:14)
And, I got in, in a big way, because it was an expectation of the company that I do. So as I increased my responsibilities with the company, they had an expectation that I would increase my contribution back. And I did that, and it was a great experience. One of the things that’s important in life is always to learn from others. And, uh, when you surround yourself with with other people who have talents that you may or may not have and are well willing to listen and accept what they have to give you learn a lot, and I’m a big believer in, on the job kind of experience in terms of leadership, uh, and also just day to day work. But, you have to work at it. It’s not, it’s not something that just happens. Uh, very few people have good listening skills and that’s a tough discipline.

Bunny: (23:13)
Well, and I think that, that there are a lot of people out there who feel like there are born leaders, you’re either a born leader or, or you’re not, um, a leader. And I don’t think leaders are born, do you?

Bud: (23:26)
No, I don’t. I don’t think necessarily everybody can be a leader. But, I think if you have the attitude that you would like to be in a leadership position, the important thing is to find a niche someplace where you can add value in a small way. And so, you know, you don’t need to join a board or be chair of the board or anything like that. You know, you can join a committee someplace that may be a board related committee or some other committee in an ins in a not-for-profit institution. If you’re interested in not-for-profit and take on a project and step up and volunteer to do that project, do your best on it. Doesn’t have to be a big project, but achieve a level of success. And that will give you self confidence to grow further and to do more like that, because you get a lot of back when you have like that, and others will, will tend to come to you then and ask for more help and that’ll get you started. And you have to be careful as I’ve learned that once you get started, people will ask a lot of you and you need to learn to say no, when you get too far.

Bunny: (24:44)
Well, you just said something prior to this, when you were talking about being surrounded by people that you learned a lot from, because I I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it over and over that one of the most important lessons I learned probably in the last decade was that, um, you know, that theory that you really are, the, uh, you are the sum total of the five people that you spend the most time with that, that, that if you surround yourself with leaders and you surround yourself with people who are accomplishing, that’s a really important growth tool that a lot of people don’t think about.

Bud: (25:22)
Yes, it is. The person I spend the most I’m with is Valerie, my wife. And, I continue to learn from Valerie every day. She always says I’m a work in progress.

Bunny: (25:38)
well, um, and nobody works hard at giving back than Valerie. But, so you have this career, you work hard, you said you work 60 to 70 hours a week, and, you know, lots of folks look forward to retirement so that they can start, playing golf, or as you love to do fly fishing every day. I mean, I met a guy the other day who fly fish three days a week. And, um, and you didn’t do that. I mean, you immediately, um, kept working. You were just working for the community for everybody else.

Bud: (26:20)
Well, are you asking why I’m doing that?

Bunny: (26:22)
Well, I’m really curious about what the mindset is that gets you to that point. I admire it. I just, I kind of wanna know the difference between you and the guy who fly fish is three days a week.

Bud: (26:36)
Well, I think everybody needs to make this decision in terms of what’s best for themselves. I know myself better than anybody, and I knew that if I got up in the morning, literally on any morning, even a Saturday or a Sunday, and I didn’t have something productive to do that day, I wouldn’t feel good. I mean, it’s just the way I’m built, because there’s just so much to do in the world. And particularly in our local community, our part of the state, there are just so many needs here to be fulfilled. And, so I just, I’m almost to a fault in that regard and that I don’t take time to relax and just, do things that are for myself. Having said that I will say that I do love to fly fish and the, the, the biggest benefit to me of all of fly fishing outside of the social aspect, because we always go with another couple or two it gives me the opportunity to totally relax for some reason when I’m on that river casting and catching fish, hopefully it totally relaxes me. And when I get back at the end of the day, I’m totally refreshed and that’s a great feeling.

Bunny: (28:02)
Well, we just had a guest last week and we talked a lot about that reflection period, how you have to, um, you have to very consciously set aside time to, to reflect on what’s happening and where you’re gonna go. But, um, you, you and Valerie moved here in 2003, right. And immediately, immediately jumped in and got busy. Um, tell our listeners which boards you serve on right this minute besides the cancer foundation.

Bud: (28:35)
Well, too many I will say to start, I’m a bit over extended at this time and I need to consolidate, I need to figure out a way to do that the best way possible for myself as well as those organizations I serve on eight and right now. So let’s see if I can remember ’em all besides the cancer foundation, there’s seven more. I’ve been on the Lensic board for 15, 16 years. I’ve been on the, Museum of New Mexico foundation board for about a similar amount of time. I’m recently rejoined the board of the Santa Fe community foundation. I was on it, turned out, stayed off, went back on. I’m uh, on the board of growing up New Mexico, which prior to January of this year was known as United way Santa Fe. It’s an organization that focuses single money, not mindedly against early childhood learning and care. I serve on the advisory board at the enterprise bank here locally, where I’m a customer and I serve on the ad on the advisory board of the Santa Fe regional airport. And I think that’s all of.

Bunny: (30:02)
So we talk all the time, people talk all the time about morning routines. So I asked you what your morning routine is because I know it’s, um, pretty intense. What, what do you do every morning to make your day of success?

Bud: (30:18)
Well, this is something I’ve been doing, uh, for decades. I mean, going way back into my work experience as well. The, uh, I’m a firm, uh, believer in fitness. And so I start my day every morning, early 5:00 AM, actually when I was working about, and I got up at 3:45 AM. Wow.

Bunny: (30:45)
yeah.

Bud: (30:46)
To work out. Uh, and I

Johanna: (30:48)
Was wondering if when you ever slept and I guess you don’t. , ,

Bud: (30:54)
That’s a different story Johanna. But we, we did that because, I wanted to go down to the athletic club, the downtown club in Cincinnati and they opened at 4:30. And so I had to get up and get down there. And that was a great experience being a member of that club. But even like, even when we lived in Venezuela, we had two treadmills in our apartment there where we lived. And we were up early, roughly five there as well. And my current routine is up at five and I’ll work out here in our home for two and a half to three hours. And I know that sounds like a long period of time and it is, but it works for me. I do more and more stretching and yoga kind of activity at this age of my life than I did previously, but, it tends to be working. We have a personal trainer that comes to the house twice a week and that helps me, and on every Thursday after she’s here, she gives me a wonderful massage, which is an unbelievable pleasure for me. I mean, second only to fly fishing. It causes me to relax and I love it. So that’s kind of my morning routine and it doesn’t vary much it’s seven days a week. And I’ve often asked the doc if I should take a few days off. And he says, if you, if you’re feeling good and if it’s working for you, do do do what your body tells you. So I’ve, I’ve continued to work at it.

Bunny: (32:44)
Well, and just to let our listeners know you’re somewhere north of 75. I don’t know. I just remember that, that, that was the last birthday that we may have celebrated together.

Bud: (32:56)
I’ll be 80 next July.

Bunny: (33:00)
Wow. Well, nobody in the world would know. I also am curious about how you prior, I mean, you’ve got a lot on your plate. How do you prioritize, like what’s, how do you set up your day? How do you manage your day so that you get the done for the most good, I guess is the best way to put it.

Johanna: (33:24)
I was also wondering in the same question, how do you just keep track of everything with that many boards and meetings, or I don’t know how what’s your organization trick, I guess would be my question.

Bud: (33:35)
Well, those are both good questions and neither one of them are easy but they’re skill sets long, lived over a long lifetime. It’s all about in terms of getting a lot done in a short period of time. It’s all about time management. And one of the things that I learned early in my P&G career was, I can’t remember the author of this book or who professed to this methodology. But it’s a time management skill that I really feel is a good piece of, of my personal discipline. So I, I try to look at all the work that needs to get done and categorize these into ABC projects. And this methodology is always about starting every day, working on the A’s never start a day working on the BS and the C’S, because if you start with the BS and the C’s, you get someone involved with those, you never get to the a and in many instances, some of the CS don’t really need to be done if you run out of time and they don’t get done, it’s not that big of a loss because they’re CS.

Bud: (34:53)
So it’s all about prioritizing the work and attacking it in that proper order to make sure you get the important stuff done now or organizationally, how do you keep track of everything? I’ve got a wonderful suspense system. I’ve done this forever throughout my whole working career and now my whole volunteer career. And so I have a time schedule and a work schedule for on a monthly, on a daily and a monthly and a yearly basis that I keep track of in my suspense system. So the first thing I do after getting breakfast in the morning after having worked out is I open the drawer and I look at my suspense for the day and Eric tells me, you know, what’s important to do that day

Bunny: (35:45)
Well, but I’ve also noticed that we can talk about something in like September and, you will come back to me in the middle of November and say, okay, so by the way, did this get checked off your list? And I’m always thinking, where was that? Where did you save that?

Bud: (36:13)
Well that’s my suspend system. Cause when I talked to you in September,I came home and I put a little handwritten note in my suspense system to check up on bunny in November. right. Then get done.

Bunny: (36:29)
And when you say suspense system, really in practical terms, what does that look like? Is that a, a little a card file? What is that?

Bud: (36:37)
Well, it’s an eight and a half by 11 file. It’s a drawer here right next to me and I have a month. So there’s 30, 31 days up to 31 in a month and I have individual folders there for each day of the month. And then behind that I have a month for every year. So I’m always working on the current month and then filing things for future months down, further in the year. And it’s a marvelous system. It’s very simplistic, but it works. It really does.

Bunny: (37:14)
And it’s, it’s, it’s so foundational, so basic.

Bud: (37:20)
Yep. And it works and people notice it because you tend not to forget a lot of things that way.

Bunny: (37:26)
Right, right. No, absolutely. So we we’ve talked a lot about what you give the community personally. What I, what I want to do is figure out a way to help our, our listeners know how they can begin if they haven’t, if they haven’t created a habit of coming from contribution and giving back to their community, how do we, how do you help people? How can we help people develop a, um, a habit of generosity? Is, is there any gift that’s too small? Is there any, any beginning that is too small?

Bud: (38:05)
I’d say no to that the in fact it’s important to start small. I believe even if you have the means to do more than that. One of the, advices I gave are two boys, early in their was, and basically I’m gonna paraphrase this, but I said to them very early, like I’m gonna say at, somewhere in their early teens, uh, learn to give back, learn to make a contribution. If you don’t have the money to give in a big way, at least give something and establish the habit of giving, because what you find out is if you get in the habit of giving it become just a normality of what you do and you plan for it throughout the year. And then as you grow in your career and all, and you earn more money you can give in larger and larger amounts.

Bud: (39:05)
But the most important thing is to establish that habit early on. And I’m proud to say that both of my boys, our boys, I should a, have done so, and I’m very proud of them for having followed that good, old fatherly advice. The other thing I would say is that if you don’t have the money to do anything, that’s fine, but do volunteer with time. I almost any one can volunteer with some time, even if you’re a working mom and you’ve got responsibilities at home and at the job, and that’s a very, very difficult assignment to grab a few minutes you know, find a way to do something where you can take a little an hour or two over the weekend, say just to get started. But again, it’s the getting in the habit. And to go back to the example, I used a little earlier and do something where you can have some success and once you have some success, you’ll feel better about it. Others will feel better about it. And pretty soon you’ll be on your way to embellishing that success in a much bigger way.

Bunny: (40:20)
Well, and I think that you know our listeners wanna look for something that they really care about. I mean, that’s the easiest way to start developing a habit, right?

Bud: (40:30)
Yes. It is. And, uh, it’s important to, uh, when you’re looking at, uh, considering various opportunities, uh, to do a good self-evaluation and assessment about what you are passionate about and to be totally truthful with you. Um, you may not know the answer to that until after you get involved. The very first organization I got involved with of here, when we moved here, I ended up, uh, resigning from the board because I, I just did not have the passion for the, the work that they were doing. Not that it wasn’t important work, but it, it didn’t fit my bill. And I left and I found something else. And I think you need to be, you need to get in there and try something and, make an, an assessment, cuz it’s not just reading the mission statement, uh, on the website or something. Oftentimes it’s, uh, a lot about how the organization works, uh, how they’re organized, what kind of staff they have, what kind of board they have. Um, and are they making progress or do they have the ability to measure their impact in the community? There’s lots of different criteria, but uh, you need to do this self-assessment and find the right match. And if you make the wrong decision, do what I did leave and go someplace else, because if you don’t have that passion, uh, you won’t do your best work

Bunny: (41:59)
Well. And the other thing we’ve talked about for, for listeners who are already involved and who are working with donors, I think the hardest piece, especially that, that what I’ve seen that nonprofits have is, is nurturing their donors in a way that’s really meaningful. I’m curious to know if you have any good advice for that.

Bud: (42:23)
Well, I’m actually doing a lot of work right now in this area in, four different organizations that I’m involved in. And, I think what you’re referring to is what I, I would call a good stewardship of your donor base. And, um, you’ve heard me say this before Bunny, but I, I don’t know of a single organization in our community that does an excellent job of stewardship. Uh, there are many that do a good job at an excellent job as a high standard. In fact, uh, perhaps the best at this is Indi. Where I’m not involved with the board over there or anything, but we support them and it’s a wonderful organization and they do have a great interface with their donor base. The biggest mistake I think that organizations make in this area is they develop a communication plan.

Bud: (43:24)
That involves a combination of many different components. Some letter writing some website activities, some email blast, but they treat everybody the same. In other words, here’s our donor list, send it to our donor list and they don’t differentiate between the different, groups within the donor list. And, and I believe, uh, strongly that you need to differentiate, uh, for those who give you a lot large gift or a large amount of time, you need to treat them specially and you need to make them feel special. And, that doesn’t mean you ignore those that give you less, but you have a different program for a different level of giving.

Bunny: (44:13)
Well, and those are people that sort of need to be nurtured along to, to a larger contribution or of either time or money. I would think, you know, if somebody’s giving us, you know, 20 bucks a month for two years, then, I think there’s there, there’s some nurturing you can do that, gives them a little bit, some recognition that makes them understand their impact is huge as well, right?

Bud: (44:40)
Absolutely. Yep. You need to recognize everybody. But what I’m saying is I think it’s important to differentiate and to treat, treat them a little differently.

Bunny: (44:51)
Well, I said, in the notes that I sent you, I said, I really frequently like to quote my favorite philosopher and philanthropist, Dolly Parton, who says, um, who she’s, she’s a realtor example of starting small and then becoming a force of nature in giving back to the world. And she said recently I’m really, I’m kind of addicted to the feeling of giving. And, I think we wanna get people addicted to the feeling of giving whether it’s 25 bucks a month or three hours a week, or a check for a million bucks. Right?

Bud: (45:30)
Addiction’s a good word actually this regard.

Bunny: (45:34)
I also wanted to, before we run out of time, I’ve seen you, you know, in the simplest terms to our listeners work a crowd, but I’ve seen you you’ve come to a party at my house. I’ve seen you at other events and you’re, you are a master networker connect with everybody, including the caterer staff, um, you, and then you give me a call and you say, Hey, I had a visit with so, and so I’d like to know more about them. And I think I, I can hardly remember the, the names of the people that I met last week, much. It’s less 15 people that I met at a party. So I’m really curious to know what your trick is for keeping all of that information in your head.

Bud: (46:22)
Well, the trick is knowing I can’t do that because what I typically do is I ask a lot of questions in a crowd like that, it, to know people on a personal basis, uh, things that are important to them, so that the next time I see them, I can reference those things that are important to them. It might be family, or it might be a project they’re working on something like that. But when I get home, almost, almost at every time we go out, I will get my, uh, computer out and I’ll go into my address book and I’ll record everything I can remember about all these various people in my address book, because I know that I will forget. And then I take my iPhone to every event. I go to, and I often times pull that iPhone out and say, I know that person, I can’t remember what their name is or anything about ’em, but, I know they’re connected with such and such an organization. That’s all I can remember. And then I’ll search my iPhone to that organization. Their name will pop up and I’ll see that they’ve got three kids and, uh, you know, do other good work in the community. And I can go up and say, Hey, Charlie, how you doing? How’s Sally, da, da, da. And it makes you, it makes you, uh, it makes them feel like they, you really listen to them and you have a personal understanding of them. You’re right. It’s it is all about networking and, and in a fundraising business, that is absolutely critical.

Bunny: (47:56)
Well, it makes me laugh because, I had, um, lunch with a friend, someone that we know who’s a donor within our group. And we saw someone from a different organization. She said, Bunny, I have met that person 15 different times at 15 different events, and they never remember who I am. And I thought, I’m, I, I get the same thing I told her. I said, we must have those faces that look like everybody else, because I get the same thing. So it is huge that you do that with people. I mean, they remember, and they start, I think they start to care about what you care about because you care about what they care about. Did I say that correctly?

Bud: (48:40)
Yep. That’s well stated. And just to be clear, I oftentimes run into people that will say, Hey, Bud, how you doing? And I have no idea who they are. and I always say something like, I’m sorry, but please remind me where we met or something like that. So I can get some point of connectivity because otherwise I’m embarrassed. And you know, I don’t really fulfill the mission of them getting to know them unless I can get ’em to talk again about where we initially connected. That helps me.

Bunny: (49:17)
You know, one thing I’ve started doing recently, I’d say in the last 5-10 years, is that if I talk to somebody at the end of the conversation, I will say, will you please remind me what your first name is? Because I don’t wanna forget it. It’s important to of me to remember it. And it, it does make a difference. Not only that I, for me to remember it, but that I told them, I really wanna remember who you are.

Bud: (49:43)
Yeah. And another thing that’s really helpful, although it can become burdensome too, is that if this is somebody you really want to get to know well and get to know quickly is establish another point of connectivity soon thereafter, for example, you might say, geez, let’s get together and have a drink or a coffee or something. And, and, uh, what’s your schedule look like next here, two weeks from now, depending on your own schedule. But I, I think that after you’ve had multiple contacts, it’s much easier. Um, my ability on, on facial recognition, uh, is, is much less than it used to be as well as, uh, just other memory issues. But, if I can get two or three contacts with someone, then I’m pretty well set, but sometimes it takes initiative to do that because if you only see ’em at a gala once a year, it’s, it’s hard.

Bunny: (50:43)
It is really hard. It it’s. Yeah. And, and we, where we live, Santa Fe tends to be a really small city. I mean, it’s every, everybody, everybody like this donor that I had lunch with the other day wants to be remembered and, and everybody travels in similar circles. So, um, one, because we’re at the end of 2020, and I know, I know for you, this is late in the year to, to set goals, but you have a goal setting method that I I’ve found. Um, I well surprising to begin with, but it works. And I, I want you to tell folks about how you set goals, cuz it’s pretty astounding. I think that you set an aiming point that that works

Bud: (51:32)
Well. I’m a firm believer based on successful experience with this technique that you set big audacious goals. Um, and I’ll use the cancer foundation as being the best example of that, where we have, specific numerical goals every year. And I just remember sitting down with the staff every year and they always want my opinion is what the right level of the goal should be. And, it was always beyond their reach unachievable. They never felt it could be attained and we virtually never missed it. And the reason is the psychology of setting big audacious goals is that you need to establish the mindset of those who are gonna work against the goal that you can’t just continue to work the way you work the previous year to get to that big audacious goal. You’re gonna have to do things differently.

Bud: (52:28)
You’re gonna have to change personal behaviors. And that’s not easy to do for most folks. The, the inclination of just work harder to get to the goal is, is not necessarily gonna get you there. You need to work much smarter and differently, uh, to get there. And, and that’s the kind of intellectual experience I think, causes people to rethink how they approach a goal that looks impossible to get to. But I’ve just had an awful lot of good experience with this. And then the final point I would make money is I always say, and, and I sincerely have meant this and I will help you get there. And that’s by personally working to help get there as well as if they need training or, mentorship or whatever it might be. But, I always feel if I’m gonna set a big goal like that, I need to help ’em personally get there.

Bunny: (53:24)
Well, so my suggestion, and I’m gonna do this because I’ve set some goals for next year, but I’m gonna go back and increase them. But my suggestion to our listeners is set some audacious goals for 2022 and continue and review them. Right. I mean, you can’t just set them and then forget about ’em. I mean, it’s so important to keep them in front of you all the time, but, well, we’ve talked about a lot of stuff and we could continue to talk forever, but… oh, I asked you, what have you learned this year that has surprised you? I like to ask our guests that.

Bud: (54:14)
Well, I don’t know whether it’s a total surprise, it’s been a surprise throughout my lifetime, but the thing that immediately popped to my mind, and this applies locally, throughout the state and throughout our country and the world is how little we seem to learn from our failures and from just not doing things right. We just don’t seem, we continue to repeat the same mistakes time and time again. And that’s very bothersome.

Bunny: (54:51)
It is. Do you have an answer? no, well,

Bud: (54:57)
I know I personally try not to do that. I’m not totally guiltless here, but you’ve gotta, you know, you really have to capture the learning of the moment. And I think so often we don’t do that. We’re just onto the next project. And, again, I’ll go back to something, here’s a, here’s a disappointment of failure on my part. Last year after we did our first virtual auction and didn’t do quite as well as we typically do. I said to in our debriefing session afterwards, what can we learn from this experience and how can we pick up on the learning here and do it even better the next time we go live? And we’ve done a little of that, but not as much as I would’ve liked. And that’s you just need to capture immediately and then go analyze it and make, you’ve gotta change. You’ve got to change.

Bunny: (55:53)
Well, thanks for that. Maybe, you have to take some time to reflect as well. Stand in a stream. Yeah. Well, any other gift you wanna give our listeners today? Because you’ve given us a lot.

Bud: (56:07)
Just say happy holidays to everybody enjoy this special time of the year and be with your family and friends.

Bunny: (56:18)
Thanks Bud. That was great stuff.

Bud: (56:20)
You’re welcome. Thank you for the opportunity to chat.

Bunny: (56:24)
That’s all we’ve got today. Friends. I wanna thank you for joining the lifesaving gratitude podcast with your host Bunny Terry that’s me and my producer and assistant Johanna Medina. We feel like we’re in the business of sharing the stories that save us and we hope you’ll share as well by letting your friends and family about the podcast follow and like us wherever you listed. And please take the time to leave a review, whether it’s a stellar comment or a suggestion, we are open to suggestions all the time. Also follow us on Instagram @lifesavinggratitudepod. You can also follow me personally @bunnterrysantafe. You can sign up at my website at bunnyterry.com to receive weekly emails about how to become the ultimate gratitude nerd. Thanks so much for checking in.

Bunny: Hi everyone. This is Bunny with the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. Just in case you don’t know me, I am a stage four colon cancer survivor and the author of Lifesaving Gratitude, which is a book about how gratitude helped me kick cancer’s ass. 

Today we’re going to talk to a special guest about how marketing and marketers can use gratitude to create business and connections with clients and also for themselves to create a really positive way to do their job. But first, I just want to thank you for being here and ask that you download the podcast if you’d like. And certainly subscribe wherever you listen to other podcasts. But enough about me and enough about the podcast. 

I want to introduce you to my special guest, who’s also a friend. Craig Cunningham is currently a realtor with Keller Williams, Santa Fe. And that’s how I met him. However, this is a recent career for him and he was, and correct me if I mispronounce the word, but you were a hotelier. Is that the way to say that?

Craig: Yes. 

Bunny: Yes. He’s spent 30 years in corporate sales and marketing. He’s traveled extensively. I’m going to let him tell you all the places that he’s been to, but he is the founder and principal of Cunningham + Colleagues marketing consultants. He was in the past the VP of marketing and quality for Seaport Hotels and World Centers and the VP of marketing for Core North America. So welcome Craig Cunningham.

Craig: Thanks so much for having me on your podcast.

Bunny: I’m excited. I know you have some great tips for all of our listeners. When I think about these podcasts, I always think about the people that are going to want the information we’re offering. I mean, we’re here to help people and we’re here to figure out how gratitude can make everyone’s life not just easier and simpler, but also fuller. So why don’t you start, Greg? Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us how in the world you ended up in this completely different career? And yet the truth is we’re still just marketers first and realtors, second. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell our listeners.

Craig: Yeah. So, as you said, I’ve been in marketing and sales for more than 30 years. I actually started off with an advertising and PR agency and then had the good fortune to be hired by my hotel client at the time, Wyndham hotels. At that time it was a North American chain and it’s now international. 

But from then on, I was in the hotel business. It’s definitely a career where if you are not focused on client service and the whole concept of gratitude, you’re not going to be successful. I always thought of our job as just surprising and delighting our guests and making them feel like they chose the right hotel to be with. And so it was always about waking up every day and saying, “What can I do to make somebody’s day and to give them a great experience?” And, of course, to do this you have to be grateful because they opted to choose your hotel over the million other choices that they had. 

So when I retired from the hotel business two years ago, I was trying to figure out what else I wanted to do with my life. I started doing more volunteering. I volunteer with Kitchen Angels here in Santa Fe to deliver meals to people who are not able to leave their homes. But I also started thinking of whether I wanted to do something else from a professional standpoint and the real estate business seemed like a natural extension, because it’s all about client service. You have to figure out ways to make people feel like they’ve made the right choice in working with you. So it’s all about being grateful every day and figuring out what can I do to help them today. How else can I extend what I’m doing for them in a way that they will appreciate and know that I appreciate them. So that’s what it’s really all about, because of course they could work with a million other other people

Bunny: Right. And let’s talk for just a second. Don’t you think that marketing has changed over the 30 years that you’ve been doing this? I mean, it seems to me that when we were kids, which was back before the crust cooled, we were sort of marketed at. Just talk for a minute about how marketing is different now than it was 10 years ago or 30 years ago.

Craig: It’s funny, because I was going to say the exact same thing. Back in the day, you were running a TV ad or a radio spot or a print ad and it was passive in that you just presented the information, unless you were direct sales. But really with the advent of so much digital media, you are instantly able to forge a relationship with customers through social media, through Facebook, Instagram, where you’re having a dialogue with them from the very beginning. This allows you to work in a much more personal way and to be able to find out much more quickly how you can serve those people. 

So I think it’s changed completely. Before you just sort of put it out there into the ether and hope that something worked, and now you’re able to engage. And I’ve found that so much in real estate where I’m getting emails from folks and then it evolves from the email into a phone call or a zoom call or something like that instantly. I think that’s so much better for both people. Especially for somebody like me who wants to find ways to engage with people and to be of service to them, it makes it a lot easier and more rewarding.

Bunny: I just think about the ways that I connect with my clients. It’s as if you’re somehow conveying to those people that you’re grateful that they showed up.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, my whole thought is that it’s not a transaction, it’s a relationship. And that relationship can be multifaceted. Once you’ve sold them a house or sold their house, I like to think that we’ve formed a friendship and a bond and that relationship is going to continue. And honestly, I don’t even care if I ever get another piece of business for them. Now think of them as friends. I want to have them to my house for dinner or go have coffee or something like that. 

I think that kind of thing that makes a difference for people in wanting to work with me.  It’s coming from a position of wanting to be of service to them and wanting to make them happy and finding the right solution for them. I’m working with some first-time-buyers right now and I kind of feel like they’re my kids. It’s about, okay, how can I really help them with this? And they’re grateful for the counsel I’m able to give to them, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to work with them. So it’s very rewarding. I think if you approach business relationships in the same way as you would with your friends, it’s a win-win situation for everybody.

Bunny: Well, talking about those first-time home buyers, I mean, that’s one of my favorite deals. You never make the most money from those transactions, but I’m so grateful to be reminded that we are providing the American dream when we’re selling real estate. Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s my favorite experience.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, for somebody to have their first home and to be excited about how they’re going to decorate it and what they’re going to do. And with this young couple, seeing them excited when they see a house brings out all my empathy and makes me want to really go the extra mile for them to make sure they find the right house at the right price for them. And then I just never want to stop. So then it’s like, “Okay, now I’m going to find this person for you to do the plumbing, and I’m going to find this person, etc, and I’ll be with you with you  to help explain things.” I just want to really continue to be of service.

Bunny: I talk a lot, especially on my blog, about Judy Camp, who was one of my first real estate mentors. She was a great friend and Linda Gammons partner for a long time before she passed away. But Judy Camp always says, “If you come from contribution, you can’t help but be successful.”

Craig: Yeah. I mean, just as I was saying, you can’t think of it as a transaction. I think, coming from contribution, how can I help you? How can I make this a better experience? How can I make this work? Because, especially in a real estate transaction, it can be stressful. It’s the biggest financial transaction for the majority of us. So how do you take the burden and the pressure away from them and sort of guide them through the process? I just think the main thing is that it’s much more fun, whether you’re doing volunteer work or in business, to wake up every day and figure out how I could make it fun for somebody else. Because then it’s fun for you and it gets you excited and passionate about what you’re doing.

Bunny: Well, it sounds like our big “why’s” are really similar. I certainly don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but it sounds like your big “why” is just to make the life of the people you come in contact with better.

Craig: Yeah. Of course making money is nice, but there are lots of ways to make money. It’s more about whether you are getting energy from it. And I think you really get energy when you’re working with someone and trying to figure out how you can help them, how you can make their day better, how you can make the service that you’re providing better. And also just doing things that saying, “What about if I do X, Y, Z?” and they’re  like, “Oh, you’ll do that for me?” And I’m like, “Of course.”

I have another set of clients where the transaction was fairly complicated and we were looking at lots of properties. Coming from a corporate background, I love to do spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations—things like that. And so after about the third thing we had to do, they’re like, “Oh, how are we going to organize all these bids?”  And then one of the guys said to the other guy, “Well, Craig’s going to do a spreadsheet for us. He’s probably already got it done.” So it’s that kind of thing where you’re looking for ways to make their experience better.

Bunny: So this is always a funny question for me to ask, because I have such a loose gratitude practice other than just waking up in the morning and saying, “thank you, thank you, thank you,” and then writing things down, but do you have a practice that you follow that helps you both in your business and your personal life?

Craig: Well, since I came into real estate with Keller Williams, which focuses a lot on being servant leaders and helping people, I’ve gotten into the habit of writing three things I’m grateful for that day. It could be that it’s a beautiful day or a dog or my partner or the opportunity to help somebody or the coffee’s really good that day, but waking up and appreciating what you have in your life is a good way to get in a good mindset for the rest of it.

Bunny: Oh, absolutely. Something I always say is that we kind of rewire our brains. We do. We create new neural pathways every time we say that we’re grateful. So in terms of nuts and bolts, is there a way that you let your clients know? I mean, I find that there are a lot of young people, young entrepreneurs or people who are new to business, who forget how to tell their clients how they’re grateful for them, even if it’s a line in an email. Do you have something that you do specifically over and over?

Craig: I think for me, it’s maybe more in the actions. I think of “This is really going to be helpful if I do this or if I provide this information.” I think it’s always in my voice and the way that I write. I try to always communicate openly and in a friendly and conversational manner. But then I also think “It would be really cool and really helpful if I did X , Y , Z.” I created a whole PowerPoint just on the neighborhoods in Santa Fe, because if you’re out of town it gets confusing. And that came out of a client saying, “Well, I don’t really know the neighborhoods.” And I thought that this would be a great tool for them. So I created it and then I was able to use it with others. 

So I think for me, maybe it’s sort of on the fly. I used to say in the hotel hotel business, “How can I make this a wow experience?” Because the other way to think about it is that every relationship is with people. When you’re in a service business you’re really in the business of creating memories. You can create good memories or you can create bad memory and it’s much more fun to create good memories.

Bunny: And that just comes from a spirit of generosity. I mean, you obviously want this to be the best real estate experience they’ve ever had.

Craig: Right. Right. I’m very grateful for the people that have helped me along the way. I’ve been very fortunate in my career to always work for people who were concerned about my career development and my personal development and became dear friends. And I’ve had a couple of bosses that have hired me twice in two different jobs. So I’m always grateful for the things that other people have done for me. 

So then I want to pay it forward. When I came to Keller Williams and I was introduced to the team here, there was so much openness and willingness to share and help and support. It has been fantastic. What strikes me the most is how grateful I am for what other people have done for me. And how do I pay that back?

Bunny: I mean, this is not a podcast to plug Keller Williams. It’s really more to talk about mindset, but the place where I learned it was sitting in that training room and learning that my mindset was the secret sauce. I mean, that’s the success piece, right?

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s not just about production and everything. It’s about weight and having a sense of gratitude and contribution and a sense of abundance. And I don’t mean that in a monetary way. It could be abundance in your health or your friends or all of that kind of stuff. And I think back to you. Your experience with cancer was far worse than mine, but I did have prostate cancer about nine years ago. Everyone I worked with during that entire time when I was going for radiation every day for 10 weeks was so supportive. And then on the last day of radiation, there was this very important meeting, and everyone knew it was my last day.My whole team had a celebration for me on my last day. That was turning something that was obviously a challenging situation into something where I knew they really cared about me and supported me.

Bunny: Wow. I’m interested to hear how your mindset was in the middle of that? 

Craig: I’m just by nature, an optimistic person. So even though it was scary, I felt like I was in good hands from a medical standpoint and I just felt like I was gonna beat it. I had done the education that I needed to and then it was really about having a positive mindset. 

This is probably too much information, but I’ll say it anyway. You’re doing the radiation stripped down to your boxer shorts. And so I jokingly put this Facebook thing about the fact that I needed a new pair of boxer shorts for every day. And people started sending me underwear—different pairs of boxer shorts for every day. So while I was sitting there in the big machine, where you’re sort of in there and it’s buzzing and scanning and all that kind of stuff, it got to be kind of a joke with the techs:  “Oh , what’s he going to be wearing today?”

Bunny: I love that.

Craig: That was a way to keep my spirits up. And also during that process, I really learned how to be very focused. I was in a waiting room with people that were going through, frankly, worse things than prostate cancer. Don’t get me wrong, prostate cancer is pretty serious. It is. People die from it. But I was seeing so many other people that were having a much more challenging time than I was. And we became a family. We all bonded together during that process, because we were all waiting, sometimes for an hour. So it’s things like that. And also things like the kitchen angels service, where it helps reboot you every day for how grateful you should be in your own life and grateful for the opportunity to help other people.

Bunny: Right. There are tons of people who do get what a gift it is. People who don’t even have a specific gratitude practice, but at least an attitude every day that you’re going to figure out something. I just wrote a blog post on limiting beliefs and one of the things that I wanted to convey is that we get to choose every single moment how we view the world. And maybe for somebody out there who’s brand new in business or who’s starting a new business. I just read a statistic that said that the entrepreneur demographics are changing. And now like 48% of new entrepreneurs are over 50. So hooray for the old people! 

But I know that there are people out there right now who are thinking, “Well, I’m not any good at marketing. I’m not any good at that piece of it. I can sell stuff, but I’m not good at the marketing stuff.” I’ve got to tell you, I’m married to a guy who doesn’t believe in self promotion because he came from a generation when you played down your assets, instead of being grateful for them and talking about them. So I’d love to hear what you have to say to somebody who has that limiting belief that they can’t market. And they can’t promote themselves.

Craig: You know, we could all market ourselves, and we do it every day in our interactions.  Whether we think of it as marketing or not, we’re marketing ourselves all day long in how we react and treat other people. The thought I had as you were talking about your husband thinking self-promotion sounds like a dirty word is that it doesn’t have to be you talking  about “me, me, me” and “I did this million dollars in revenue.” This is kind of a turnoff in some ways, because you’re talking about yourself. But if you’re talking about how you can help somebody else and how you can provide a good experience for them with your information and knowledge, you’re not talking about yourself in that context. You’re talking about how you can be of service. I think that’s a much easier way for a lot of people from a generation where we weren’t really supposed to be talking about ourselves.

Bunny: Well, it was pre-social media. Our face wasn’t out there. We just weren’t trained to tell people, “Here’s the reason you should hire me instead of the other person.”

Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, now we’re all our own brands on social media. But I think that rather than saying to somebody, “Here’s why you should hire me versus somebody else,” you should just talk about how you can be of service in what you do in an authentic way. Then people are more likely to want to work with you, because you’re radiating a sense of positivity and an interest in them. And they’re not thinking that you just look at them as a transaction and then you’re onto the next person.

Bunny: I frequently use with my marketing coaching clients the example of a dinner party. If you went into a dinner party (and this is for people who are just beginning in whatever business they’re in, especially if they’re self-employed), you wouldn’t simply walk in, take your coat off and say, “Hey, I’m selling something, come and talk to me.” Right? I mean, that’s what you don’t want to do with marketing. You want to start by building a relationship. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Craig: I think it goes all the way back to Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. People do like to talk about themselves. And so the first thing is you should be listening. That was one of the first things I learned in marketing client service. You need to ask questions and learn from your clients. Focus on what they need, as opposed to talking about yourself. You really want to establish a dialogue with them about their wants and needs and hopes and fears and everything else. Then you can talk about how you can address them. But nobody wants to go in and all of a sudden have you sit down and say, “Here’s my PowerPoint about me and what I’ve done.” It should be more of establishing, from the very beginning, a relationship of openness with folks. Then, after hearing from them, you can say “Well, here’s how I think I can you and here are some ideas that I have that I could share with you.” So I think a key thing is really listening from the very beginning.

Bunny: I even found that to be helpful when I used to first go on listing appointments. I was so nervous that I would sit down and I would immediately try to book an appointment. You know, if you’re not in real estate, a listing appointment is just like sitting down with a prospective customer. I would be so nervous in the beginning and really coming from a place of scarcity where I thought, “If I don’t get this listing, I’m not sure I can pay the rent next month.” And if you’re coming from a place of scarcity, you’re likely to self-sabotage. But that’s such good advice because things changed when I finally learned how to sit back and listen: “I’m here to help you. Tell me what it is that you need. Talk to me.” It’s so powerful to give a client time to talk to you. And I think people forget to do that, right?

Craig: Yeah. And I think sometimes we do it because we’re afraid. What I’ve learned so much over the years in business working with people is that people are terrified of silence, so they will immediately start talking. If there’s a second of silence, you jump in and start babbling. Lord knows I do it. But if you just let somebody talk and let it sort of sit there for a second and not just try to be filling in all the time. It drives me crazy when people are doing that. It’s much better if you can have the client talk and then ask some more questions and then be warm and reflective about it. Back to the Dale Carnegie thing, I think one of his first points was if you’re at the dinner party, ask people about themselves. Most people do like to talk about themselves. So ask them and don’t just start talking about yourself. 

Bunny: I think that even people who would say, “I don’t like to talk about myself,” really do want somebody to ask them and listen to them.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s not just asking them to go on and on. It’s more meaningful questions about, for example, why they decided to move here. Just those kinds of questions that get them thinking. Growing up in materialistic Dallas, the joke was that the questions at a party were like, “Where do you live? What do you do? What do you drive?” And so it’s not questions like that. It’s asking them more about their life experience,

Bunny: You just brought me to another completely different point, which is for any realtors out there listening: I think it’s really important to convey to your clients how grateful you are for where you live. I mean, if our lifestyle is such a selling point, don’t you think you should share that?

Craig: Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, living in Santa Fe there’s so much beauty. I’m looking out my window right now at the beautiful blue sky. When I leave my house in the morning and I see the mountains, and then when I’m coming home at night and the sun is setting over the mountains and I see all the different colors and everything, it’s just breathtaking. It’s great to live in such a great and wonderful environment and in a place that is very spiritual, going back with the native Americans—respect for the earth and nature and all of those things—I think it does help center us more than a lot of other places.

Bunny: How do you convey that to your clients? I know you’re doing something really cool online that’s different from some other realtors.

Craig: Well, I’m not just posting on my Facebook page,” Hey, I just sold this house or just sold that house.” Well, that’s great. But I’m more talking about new experiences in Santa Fe: new restaurants, or a new place to go hiking, or something exciting that’s happening at one of the museums or things like that—enthusiastically talking about the experience of living in Santa Fe. And if down the road, by the way, you’re looking at this stuff and you decide you want to buy a house here, I would love to help you. But it’s more about conveying the reason why we all want to live here

Bunny: And tell us about your blog, because I think it’s amazing.

Craig: So I created this blog, which is called Santa Fe Scenes. It’s that same kind of thing where it’s just talking about having fun in Santa Fe. One of the things was, you know, we’ve got the old Santa Fe trail and we’ve got the old Pincus trail, but did you know that we had a Margarita trail and a Chocolate trail? Stuff like that. Just being whimsical about it and talking about some of the things are unique about the city and sharing my own passion for Santa Fe. I was very fortunate to be able to do a lot of international travel for my job. I was grateful for the opportunity that I was given to see places that I wouldn’t have seen otherwise from Bogota to Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro and Beijing and places like that. So I’ve always been enthusiastic about travel and now living in such a beautiful place like Santa Fe, I want to share that enthusiasm with people.

Bunny: And you’re getting some good feedback on that I bet, right?

Craig: Yes, I am. I’m getting good feedback on it. It’s been a wonderful thing to reconnect with friends who are saying, “Good for you, you old dog! You’re back out there trying something new.” Because whenever someone says, “Oh, you’re a new realtor,” I say, “Well, I’m an old new realtor. I’m 61 and I’m starting this for the first time.” But it’s been great from that perspective and the support that you get from your friends. Then people are saying, “Oh, well, I know somebody who might be interested in sending you that information.” I think that’s one of the positive things that social media has done where we’ve been able to reconnect with so many people that we might have completely lost touch with.

Bunny: Oh yeah. I did a post not very long ago about how grateful I was, and it was in the middle of all the fear over Facebook and Twitter. And I just said that it’s such a great platform for reconnecting with cousins that I haven’t seen since I was six. I mean, I just turned 60. I’m an old dog and this is a new trick for me, but I think that if you use it the right way, it’s a real gift. I also think there are so many realtors, like you said, who just post either pictures of houses that they have listed or their accomplishments. And I think they’re really missing an opportunity.

Craig: Yeah. Because then you’re just talking at someone. You’re not sharing information and excitement about things with them. People don’t want to look at that stuff. They want to look at things like the fact that there are like six great chocolate tiers in Santa Fe. And then the next time I’m in town, I want to go to each one of them. Or discovering an amazing new hiking trail or a beautiful image of a shop window or a piece of art or something like that. 

Bunny: Yeah, it’s so much better than “I just listed this house at 123 main street. Don’t you wish you owned it?” Exactly.

Craig: Exactly. I think more people would react to it. I’d really like to have some of that green chili chocolate over at The Chocolate Smith or whatever. It’s much more interesting than a picture of a kitchen that has granite countertops. Oh my goodness.

Bunny: And, you know, Craig, I found that people will call me and they’ll say, “Well, I’ve been following you on Facebook for two years. And I feel like you’re my best friend. I think you’d be the right person to show me around and help me find a house.” And I bet that’s happening to you too.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. It’s funny, you mentioned that. One of the people I’ve been mentoring told me a story about how she posted a lovely picture of herself and then somebody called her and said, “I feel like I already know you because you just look like a nice person and I feel like I can trust you.” I think also that it’s our eyes and our smile and everything that conveys so much of what you’re talking about. If you have a spirit of gratitude and service and a sense of abundance, not scarcity, it shows in your face, your eyes, your smile, and your whole persona.

Bunny: Well, we’re going to have to wrap up here in a minute, but I would love to hear if you have just three great tips that you would give to somebody who feels kind of stuck in their marketing. It could be what you’ve learned in 30 years or in the last three days, whatever it is.

Craig: I think one is changing your question from “How do I market myself?” to “What can I do for this client?” or “What can I do that’s going to excite the people? How can I make them feel appreciated and valued?” And this can work in cases where you’re actually working one-on-one with a client or cases where you’re trying to figure out how to promote what you’re doing. How do I find ways to surprise and delight people? So I like to do that with social media buys, where you come up with quirky, little things to talk about that are authentically Santa Fe or a funny picture of my dog or something like that. You want to put a smile on people’s faces. And social media gives us so many opportunities to be able to do that in ways that we couldn’t before. So the main thing at the end of it is to put your client first, and then I think everything else will come from there.

Bunny: You’re absolutely right. I think as long as your passion is helping people, then success is just a natural by-product of that.

Craig: Exactly. People feel that energy and then they want to tell their friends about you.

Bunny: What I’ve found is that people want to be able to trust somebody, especially in this business where they’re making possibly the biggest purchase of their life.

Craig: Right? I’m thinking back to these younger clients. We were touring houses, and they were interested in one particular house and I was like, “No, I’m not going to let you buy this. This is not the right move.” And I think all of a sudden they’re like, “Wow, he really cares. He’s not just thinking ‘Tick tock, tick tock. We’ve seen three houses.’” This is not House Hunters International where there are the three properties and you have to buy one. So again, it’s not a transaction. It’s a journey. It’s a relationship.

Bunny: I think that’s the most important tip for somebody to take away. Whether you’re selling widgets or earrings or house cars or houses, this is not a transaction. It’s a relationship. We want people to trust you and come back over and over. I don’t know how you can love your job if you’re not doing it the way we’re doing it.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. And have fun with it. We get to meet interesting people all day long. We get to see things. We get to use our own creativity to express ourselves. I know there are people that are in jobs that don’t have that. But I also read things about  the janitor in an elementary school who takes real pride in what they do, and they are going to do the best job that they possibly can. So I think in almost everything, you can come at it with a mindset of “How can I make this a great experience for me and for others?”

Bunny: That’s great stuff. Tell us where people can find you and where they can find your blog.

Craig: Well, probably the most fun thing I’m doing is the Santa Fe Scenes blog. 

Bunny: Okay. And we’ll share that on the information page for the podcast. And then, of course, if people want to buy a house from you, they can find you through there?

Craig: Yeah. All my information is on there. So one stop shop.

Bunny: Craig, I’m so excited that you were here. This was fun. I think we could do it again.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Bunny: Because I think this is the place where people get stuck. People who are self-employed get stuck in this part. And so I think there’s a lot of stuff that we can talk about.  But I’m of course really grateful that you agreed to talk with us.

Craig: Oh, thanks. It’s been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. 

Bunny: And to everybody else, thanks for being here. This is once again, the Lifesaving Gratitude podcast. I’m Bunny Terry. You are welcome to go to my website if you’d like to learn more about me and about buying my book, which is all about gratitude and how gratitude helped me kick stage four cancer’s ass. And we’d love to have you follow us and subscribe on spot Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks so much, Craig.

Craig: Thank you. Next time.